Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 17696 to 17745 Page 248 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17696 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Industrial production of cheap giant kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17697 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Industrial production of cheap giant kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17698 From: dave santos Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Industrial production of cheap giant kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17699 From: dave santos Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17700 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17701 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17702 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17705 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17706 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17707 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Theory of Passive-Control in AWES Design (update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17708 From: Rod Read Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17709 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17710 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17711 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17712 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Progress in Flapping Harvesting of Wind Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17713 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Progress in Flapping Harvesting of Wind Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17714 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17715 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17716 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: Kinematic Viscosity of Air in relation to AWES Scaling

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17717 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17718 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17719 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17720 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17721 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/27/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17722 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17723 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: updates to freekitesim

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17724 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17725 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17726 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17727 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17728 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17729 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17730 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17731 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17732 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17733 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
Subject: High spec 3d turbofan weaving

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17734 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
Subject: relocatable energy competition

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17735 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
Subject: finbox extrusion for ring mounting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17736 From: dave santos Date: 4/29/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17737 From: Christian Harrell Date: 4/30/2015
Subject: Portable renewable energy generation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17738 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/1/2015
Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/2/2015
Subject: Wayne German and his May 1, 2015, document

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17740 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/2/2015
Subject: Re: Wayne German and his May 1, 2015, document

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Pitch, Yaw, Roll

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17742 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Pitch, Yaw, Roll

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17743 From: dave santos Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Pitch, Yaw, Roll

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17744 From: dave santos Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Negative-Lift AWES Methods

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17745 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/3/2015
Subject: Re: Negative-Lift AWES Methods



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17696 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Industrial production of cheap giant kites

DaveS wrote:"...true wholesale mass-production economics".

We must lower the cost of unity of area of kites to make viable AWE. Whished shape of giant kites can be assured by assembling square trips of rolls of 10 m of wide and more.

For example take this single skin laboratori d'envol - glider engineering as shape and make giant kite with square trips when it is possible. Some propositions?

 PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17697 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Industrial production of cheap giant kites

Some correction: rolls of 10 m of wideness.

English link : laboratori d'envol - glider engineering

 

 PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17698 From: dave santos Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: Industrial production of cheap giant kites
kPower chose to explore a more radical approach to cheap wind technology based on Dave Culp's concepts as he taught them to me. One of his ideas was that "a blue tarp could power a village" in principle. He also taught that any tailoring of a flat SS kite sail drives up both cost and scrap waste. kPower therefore embraces 100% untailored utilization of modern roll stock  
Some correction: rolls of 10 m of wideness.
 
 PierreB 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17699 From: dave santos Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge
Its a fallacy to suppose that delays in aerospace R&D (including AWE) are a telling sign of program failure, rather than normal. Makani is not expected to launch the M600 this month, contrary to what Astro Teller recently claimed in Austin at SXSW. The problem is the natural tendency for complex projects to be underestimated in scope, but GoogleX will hardly run out of money, nor time, insofar "time is money".

On the key question of where the M600 power plants are to come from; its been supposed that Joby is trying to scale up its designs, but another option is opening up; to wait for Siemen's to begin low-volume production of its hot new super-motor. There is still the huge hurdle to overcome, that an M600 lifting-off and carrying its tether up to starting altitude is an order-of-magnitude advance over current electric helicopter performance. The tiny cooling ducts seen in Makani test-stand photos do not inspire confidence.

I bet even odds the M600 may not even make it to working altitude initially, but a top aerospace rotorcraft connection, with less inside knowledge of Makani, thinks it should, so we will see, especially if our local informants in Hawaii can report back what might otherwise be another stealth-venture cover-up. Even the most marginal success will of course be hyped in typical Google fashion.

Three Gizmag pieces that happen to bear on this subject, despite being an unreliable source of tech info; but they clearly have a fetish for E-flight stories-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17700 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Collecting Towing Items
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17701 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Paragliding winch tow on the boat

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17702 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items
Hang glider winch-tow take-offs

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17703 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items


Hang Glider Platform Payout Towing with a Cloudstreetwinch
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17704 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17705 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Dyna Flite Hi-Start Glider Launching System
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17706 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items

Powered flying anchor: aerotow


How to launch a glider - Aerotow
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17707 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Theory of Passive-Control in AWES Design (update)
For almost a decade, KiteLab Group has been the leading advocate in AWES design of embodied- and passive-control, with inherent static and dynamic flight-stabilities. The concepts were featured in my talk at AWEC2011. kPower continues the role of technological leader in these methods for AWE. My expertise in AI and autonomous control theory dates from the 80s-90s, and flight dynamics well before that, so I overlooked a lot of subsequent progress to now happily catch up. 

The great news is that the basics of passive-control are now well-integrated into mainstream control theory, even into particular challenges like chaos-control. Its now easy to document and validate key passive-control ideas in the context of active-control research in AWE, which has, in my view, over-dominated the thinking of high-complexity players like Makani and Ampyx.

The toy kite can be classed as a flying version of a classic Braitenburg Vehicle, with rigorous control theory backing up the high potential value of the passive kite methods employed. There is still work to do to map progress in passive control to AWES design theory. Here are a few background links for those interested in passive control, keeping in mind the kite case-

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17708 From: Rod Read Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge
Can the M600 start with tighter lower but powered loops to gain speed and transition slingshotting out to larger altitudes?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17709 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge

And can two or three M600 as blades around a ring (the same as Daisy but with rigid wings as M600 or smaller) keep their global altitude by cyclic steering, and without kite lifter?

 

PierreB

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17710 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge
Not likely. Sufficient altitude equates with safety in aviation, and tighter loops lower just compounds hazard. They have already been driven down by weak design prowess from 10km high to less than .5km (and from 5MW to .6MW), as we have documented here (while they just edit web claims). They really have to get it right now.

Their hype about planned crashing somehow being smart is just not how large aircraft are really developed. One of the stupidest myths GoogleX foments is that "Moonshots" are somehow "million-to-one scientific bets", when the actual history is that the real moonshots worked as planned, and enjoyed about 95% mission reliability.
 



On Sunday, April 26, 2015 12:35 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Can the M600 start with tighter lower but powered loops to gain speed and transition slingshotting out to larger altitudes?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17711 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Makani's E-VTOL Challenge
In principle yes, but in practice its a compounded nightmare. For starters, three M600s as one combined unit increase the single-point failure risk by  
Can the M600 start with tighter lower but powered loops to gain speed and transition slingshotting out to larger altitudes?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17712 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Progress in Flapping Harvesting of Wind Energy
In the last five years, many new studies of flapping WECS have been conducted. New findings zero in the need to precisely tune the load to the flapping surface, for stable resonant max efficiency, which has now been measured
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17713 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
Subject: Re: Progress in Flapping Harvesting of Wind Energy
Attachments :
    Note what looks for all the world like coherent quantization statistics of the flapper in fig. 6 (attached), just as predicted by Kite QM theory. Kite state-spaces are apparently full of such hidden structure, but you have to fly an awful lot to grok it.






    On Sunday, April 26, 2015 4:35 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
    		  @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17714 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
    Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items
    Tow-launch from 1897 for the collection-





    On Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:10 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Powered flying anchor: aerotow
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17715 From: dave santos Date: 4/26/2015
    Subject: Re: Collecting Towing Items
    Aerotow by a flock of sUAS

    Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin, airship designer, c 1888-1917.




    On Sunday, April 26, 2015 7:25 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com  
    Powered flying anchor: aerotow
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17716 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: Kinematic Viscosity of Air in relation to AWES Scaling
    A key term in Re equations is Kinematic Viscosity. Absolute Viscosity of air is a significant factor in AWES performance, especially at higher velocities. Kinematic viscosity is the ratio of absolute viscosity to density. Air is not very dense, but density is quite important to our areodynamics. 

    Then there is the wild card in AWE scaling theory, Debye Temperature, which relates system temperature to a characteristic unit-scale. Thereby, absolute viscosity figures for aerodynamics at a larger scales are predicted to have a lower viscosity than aerodynamics at smaller scales. Slower dimensionless velocities also characterize large AWES unit-scale, with many interesting ramifications.

    Kinematic Viscosity and Density pose open questions for AWES design, since the practical dynamics of masses of air and aircraft is so complex. In particular, we have hardly begun to account for the large air masses that large soft kites entrain, as part of their system dynamics. The winning AWES architectures may just be those that best deflect bulk air mass on the largest unit-scale; not those that have highest unit L/D and highest velocity (with cost, safety, and reliability also driving design).

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17717 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    Soft wings are often advocated for its scalability at least thanks to lesser penalisation by cubic law. Some other ways are examined, as New Fabric-Covered Blades to Lower Cost of Wind Energy | Eartheasy Blog mentioned several times on the forum.

    I put some search, finding a similar way on 2014 Wind Turbine Blade Workshop- Wetzel : see p.14 "total material weights" being 31,493 kg for a conventional blade, and 23,862 kg for the "Space Frame Structure".

    My opinion is that the weight gain for Fabric-Covered and similar are not rather significant for an application for AWE. But some studies can be realized about "Tensairity" and Hang gliding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as semi-rigid structure, as possible alternative in soft structure for giant structures. Indeed the very high output of rigid wings or blades is destroyed by tether. 


    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17718 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    Pierre,

    According to the topological reasoning presented here, a large soft-kite arches and domes are the largest-scale Tensairity classes, since they are inflated structure (by wind), and use the earth itself as a residual rigid (non-airborne) part. Even a common Malay-Eddy can be seen as Tensairity-based, but especially the Morse Sled is, with its ram-air tubes and whiskers. I would even say that parafoils are Tensairity-based, so North-SkySails' soft-kites are a standard to compare against.

    daveS



    On Monday, April 27, 2015 9:05 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    Soft wings are often advocated for its scalability at least thanks to lesser penalisation by cubic law. Some other ways are examined, as New Fabric-Covered Blades to Lower Cost of Wind Energy | Eartheasy Blog mentioned several times on the forum.
    I put some search, finding a similar way on 2014 Wind Turbine Blade Workshop- Wetzel : see p.14 "total material weights" being 31,493 kg for a conventional blade, and 23,862 kg for the "Space Frame Structure".
    My opinion is that the weight gain for Fabric-Covered and similar are not rather significant for an application for AWE. But some studies can be realized about "Tensairity" and Hang gliding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, as semi-rigid structure, as possible alternative in soft structure for giant structures. Indeed the very high output of rigid wings or blades is destroyed by tether. 

    PierreB
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17719 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    Consider a soft rotor as Daisy. In first Daisy is not quite soft since a thin frame is implemented, forming the ring and perhaps side spars, such a frame preventing some excess of deformation. Now consider Daisy or another soft rotor scales up, diameter being 200 m (more than the diameter of conventional wind rotors, probably required for AWE viability unless implementation of smaller rotors is possible without risk of collision and can fill the space). In passive control mode such a rotor produces drag instead of lift, and requires a huge kite lifter. It is possible a semi-rigid rotor can both reach 200 m and generate as much lift as a rotor of an autogyro, and also more torque.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17720 From: dave santos Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    200m is far worse wind than the FAA's  600m allowance. 200m represents deep engineering failure, by that standard.
    From: Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]
    Sent: ‎4/‎27/‎2015 3:26 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [AWES] fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

     

    Consider a soft rotor as Daisy. In first Daisy is not quite soft since a thin frame is implemented, forming the ring and perhaps side spars, such a frame preventing some excess of deformation. Now consider Daisy or another soft rotor scales up, diameter being 200 m (more than the diameter of conventional wind rotors, probably required for AWE viability unless implementation of smaller rotors is possible without risk of collision and can fill the space). In passive control mode such a rotor produces drag instead of lift, and requires a huge kite lifter. It is possible a semi-rigid rotor can both reach 200 m and generate as much lift as a rotor of an autogyro, and also more torque.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     

    Posted by: Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17721 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/27/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    Diameter being 200 m, not necessarily altitude, although it looks possible, maybe desirable. See Daisy: its diameter is roughly 3 m, and its altitude is also + or - the same, so 3 m; at scale these proportions could be kept to maximize space used.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17722 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    NO.
    200m diameter would be bonkers with semi rigid in the air. (fine in the sea~..)
    You surely have to change to LEI or ram air or other inflation before then.

    Yes a Daisy ring has drag as compared to the lift line... but even from just sitting on the ground against a tight line... A Daisy type will inflate, lifting onto it's edge and occasionally bounce off the ground into air. Just like a normal ring kite. It has very low lift inherent. However when a Daisy top end is lifted and the bottom tethering is tilted back it generates some lift (not much).

    I'm quite convinced that Daisy's must be arrayed linearly up a lift line to scale.
    We have enough control of lifting to run a set of linked rings on a line.

    I think the future of Daisy is in easily joined sets of Daisy rings.
    (Think of a worm / snake segmented body. 1 ring being 1 Daisy unit. 1 worm being 10 linked Daisys. 1 Snake being 10 linked worms)
    In joining a "Worm" set to another worm the lift lines must connect, and the torque lines should connect (preferably at max ring diameter)

    The systems available to automatically launch and retract 200 linked Daisys along 1 line are dependant on ...
    1 whether or not you allow rotation whilst feeding out or recovering the lift line. (rotary vs fixed attacher detacher / releaser grabber)
    2 Do you have room for whole string array launch?
    3 Can 1 string array be torque joined to a previously launched string to shorten the launch area needed? (1 arm could collect 10 rings on segmented lift lines at a time) (10 rings makes 1 worm)
    4 How convinced you are that you can maintain lift on the lift line. (can the lift sustain a worm of rings being dropped into line?) What drop rate can the lift hold by winding 8's whilst we recover worm groups from the bottom of the line?
    5 How confident are you in being able to control torque engagement around the lift line.
    6 How fast is your worm bundling, detaching, bagging, un-bagging, attaching and unbundling?
    7 other as usual AWE parameters... gps, weather, FAA...


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17723 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: updates to freekitesim
    Nice work

    Dynamic Model of a Pumping Kite Power System
    Uwe Fechner , Rolf van der Vlugt, Edwin Schreuder, Roland Schmehl
    Delft University of Technology, Faculty of Aerospace Engineering, Kluyverweg 1, 2629HS Delft, Netherlands

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.6218
    https://conda.binstar.org/ufechner

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17724 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    So some questions. Is the snake (Serpentine) of Daisys lifted by "However when a Daisy top end is lifted and the bottom tethering is tilted back it generates some lift (not much)." or/and by a giant huge kite lifter?

    Rod have you data enough of Daisy about power* to make some first conclusions about soft and rigid rotors? Comparison with  https://youtu.be/JnhIo7KU_lI  (Please Doug do you remember data?) would be interesting if one knows what is lost respectively by ladder and by rope.

     

    PierreB

     

    *The video https://youtu.be/Nn0CTgBisps shows an average of 48 W by ladder for input 161 W.  

    * Wind speed

    *...

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17725 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    Giant Huge kite lifter would be for a giant huge Daisy.
    The PL SSSL I used has a smaller area than the Daisy and power ladder components it recently overpowered.
    Really rough guess... That 1 SSSL lifter would be enough for ~ 4 Daisys torque transmission. ish ... It could lift more.

    Rod have you data enough of Daisy about power* to make some first conclusions about soft and rigid rotors? Comparison

    The plural of anecdote is not data... Have you noticed the quality of kit and budget constraints I work under.
    There's a tonne of optimisation and data collection improvement available over my setup.
    Last test
    I "calculated" Daisy was putting ~140W into the battery in a good breeze (quality data statement there).
    The wind dropped. Then it really PICKED UP. I got stupid and greedy when it was too wild and dangerous. I've started repairs.

    Continued stupidity (mostly brought on by an inability to avoid kite design and build distractions)  leaves me struggling to describe efficiency of various ladder and ring torque transmission systems over taught rope.
    I will keep trying to research possible methods ... but if anyone has pointers or clues on how I should approach this. Please and Thank You.






    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17726 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    A 200m diameter Daisy would turn so slowly that the load angular-velocity would be very inefficient. KiteLab and USWindLabs, along with Lloyd, have pointed out the importance of high load velocity for ideal transmission.
    From: Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]
    Sent: ‎4/‎27/‎2015 7:10 PM
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [AWES] fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

     

    Diameter being 200 m, not necessarily altitude, although it looks possible, maybe desirable. See Daisy: its diameter is roughly 3 m, and its altitude is also + or - the same, so 3 m; at scale these proportions could be kept to maximize space used.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17727 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    There are at least three systems to study, one by one: then two on three then the three:

    1. Daisy as kite: torquemeter and steelyard and also anemometer to have some measures.
    2. Transmission, here torque-ladder.
    3. Conversion system, here electrical conversion system as battery and also electric devices to smooth production. 

    I think Doug can help on 1) and 2) (comparison with rigid blades and central rope) and 3) , saving time avoiding some DS/DS for a week.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17728 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    A 200m diameter Daisy would turn so slowly that the load angular-velocity would be very inefficient.

    That doesn't seem to make any sense... On a 200m dia ring the kites may not be rotating so fast but they likely go faster through air
    BECAUSE they aren't revolving so fast... How many more winglets of high LD will be mounted around the 628m track?
    That's lots more load handling available...
    On a larger dia ring more bridle cascade efficiency will be found = less drag
    I already run through gearing at the base.

    I could ditch the gearing... it's very low.
    The current small "fast" turning Daisys (stacked or not) could already be matched to and drive my wheel and gen directly.
    Gearing is not my greatest inefficiency.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17729 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    We are talking about less than 10rpm for a Daisy 200m across. That's not very promising, if load-velocity is important at all.
    From: Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
    Sent: ‎4/‎28/‎2015 1:24 PM
    To: AWE
    Subject: Re: [AWES] fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

     

    A 200m diameter Daisy would turn so slowly that the load angular-velocity would be very inefficient.

    That doesn't seem to make any sense... On a 200m dia ring the kites may not be rotating so fast but they likely go faster through air
    BECAUSE they aren't revolving so fast... How many more winglets of high LD will be mounted around the 628m track?
    That's lots more load handling available...
    On a larger dia ring more bridle cascade efficiency will be found = less drag
    I already run through gearing at the base.

    I could ditch the gearing... it's very low.
    The current small "fast" turning Daisys (stacked or not) could already be matched to and drive my wheel and gen directly.
    Gearing is not my greatest inefficiency.

    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17730 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    Help, Can anyone please please find a simple known method of turning low rpm high torque into high rpm low torque.?

    That's a rhetorical question Dave S.

    What's so wrong with using a geared drive on the ground? Some holy not quite written but they meant it law from a great ancient engineering transcript.?
    More rhetoric sorry.
    Too close to an election here... Nobody talks straight at the moment.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17731 From: dave santos Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    Gears are cool. It's the investor's accountants who whine about capital cost. KiteLab bowstring principle is the cheapo alternative for those skilled in the  art.
    From: Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
    Sent: ‎4/‎28/‎2015 4:50 PM
    To: AWE
    Subject: RE: [AWES] fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

     

    Help, Can anyone please please find a simple known method of turning low rpm high torque into high rpm low torque.?

    That's a rhetorical question Dave S.

    What's so wrong with using a geared drive on the ground? Some holy not quite written but they meant it law from a great ancient engineering transcript.?
    More rhetoric sorry.
    Too close to an election here... Nobody talks straight at the moment.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17732 From: Rod Read Date: 4/28/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    I like the bowstring.
    Can a split mothra operate a bowstring?
    Or say 2 giant kites with cascaded bridling working against each other.
    It is a sweet method.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17733 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
    Subject: High spec 3d turbofan weaving
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17734 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
    Subject: relocatable energy competition
    for those organised enough to seek uk govt funding
    https://interact.innovateuk.org/competition-display-page/-/asset_publisher/RqEt2AKmEBhi/content/portable-renewable-energy-generation


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17735 From: Rod Read Date: 4/29/2015
    Subject: finbox extrusion for ring mounting
    A simple finbox mount extrusion shape might help various aspects of ring kite design.
    I've been making hula hoops... Thinking about connecting kites around them and how to make a top of ladder ring shaped kite guide bar...

    In imagining how to translate this into an industrial process...
    Either build ring cuffs onto your kites or
    slot your kites or blades into simple extrusions.

    Both methods could help modularity of design.. by joining ring sections together to form a complete ring, you can install and collapse your design as necessary.

    In prototyping or in differing flow parameters this could allow 1 system to adapt... change sail or fin area and number.

    Worn blades can be replaced more easily.
    fin balance against bridling can be more easily experimented on.

    The ring extrusion itself can of course be more aerodynamic than circular profile with exposed slot. Long thin fast Fins in strong sections will not need bridling... only the ring will bridle to the next ring or ladder.


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    UK
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17736 From: dave santos Date: 4/29/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid
    Mothras might be made to drive bow-strings by many possible configurations with stable passive dynamics. The methods are very general, and the best rigs are just waiting for us to work them out.
    From: Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
    Sent: ‎4/‎29/‎2015 12:56 AM
    To: AWE
    Subject: RE: [AWES] fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

     

    I like the bowstring.
    Can a split mothra operate a bowstring?
    Or say 2 giant kites with cascaded bridling working against each other.
    It is a sweet method.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17737 From: Christian Harrell Date: 4/30/2015
    Subject: Portable renewable energy generation
    The Portable Renewable Energy Generation project is an SBRI competition that will be launched by the City of Cardiff Council to identify and develop innovative solutions to generate portable renewable energy technologies that are able to work in a range of locations on underused or vacant land in the city.




    https://interact.innovateuk.org/competition-display-page/-/asset_publisher/RqEt2AKmEBhi/content/portable-renewable-energy-generation
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17738 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/1/2015
    Subject: Re: fabric...rigid...semi-rigid

    No quite. Linear speed is used, no rpm. Tip speed of a soft rotor-like can be 30 m/s (against 70 m/s for a rigid rotor on tower), so the linear speed of the inner ring can be 1/3, so 10 m/s. 10 m/s is more than a correct value: in conventional towers linear speed of an annular generator 6 m diameter is yet 6 or 7 m/s. So 200 m diameter Daisy and more are possible.

     

    PierreB

     

     

     

     

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/2/2015
    Subject: Wayne German and his May 1, 2015, document

    Wayne German's document published May 1, 2015, may be studied in this topic thread.

    Here is a clip of the title of the paper:

    http://www.energykitesystems.net/WayneGerman/May1of2015TAbyWG.JPG

    I am not yet sure how he wants the full document shared.   My guess is that one may obtain a copy simply by emailing Wayne German and asking for a copy of this paper.  I assume that posters in this topic will have obtained a copy from Wayne.   The many sections and topics of the paper may form a huge robust set of things to discuss.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17740 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/2/2015
    Subject: Re: Wayne German and his May 1, 2015, document

    Email me directly, if you want Wayne German's

    email address.

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/3/2015
    Subject: Pitch, Yaw, Roll

    Pitch, Yaw, Roll (PYR)

    Images

    Control schemes vary.  Passive. Active. Elastic. Human. Robot. Sense-react. Predict. Failure. Mitigation. Safety.

    Controllers.

    Simulations.

    PYR and costs.

    PYR and energy production.

    PYR per AWES.

    Firm fixing pitch?  Firm fixing pitch relative to other parameters?

    Firm fixing of roll? Firm fixing roll relative to other parameters?

    Firm fixing of yaw? Firm fixing yaw relative to other parameters?

    Fixing ranges for PYR?

    Complex kites, compound kites, arrays, clusters, rays, fans, fences, trees, roots, arches, free-flights, fixed-location systems, mobiles, moving systems...

    Tensed lines as spars.

    Tensed lines for control of PYR.

    Wing PYR.

    Tether PYR.

    Line-laundry PYR.

    Anchor PYR.

    Global PYR.

    Local PYR.

    PTO PYR.

    Sensing PYR.

    Reporting PYR.

    PYR control lags.

    PYR products/

    ???


    Have a comment or study for RAD that involves focus on PYR? 

    This topic thread is an offer for PYR matters.



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17742 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/3/2015
    Subject: Re: Pitch, Yaw, Roll
    ​Consider PTO from pitching.   PTObyP
    Consider PTO from yawing.​     PTObyY
    Consider PTO from rolling.      PTObyR
    Consider PTO from pitching and yawing.  PTObyPY
    Consider PTO from pitching and rolling.   PTObyPR
    Consider PTO from yawing and rolling.     PTObyYR
    Consider PTO from pitching, yawing, and rolling.  PTObyPYR

    Identify in an AWES the manner of PTO with respect to wing-set motions.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17743 From: dave santos Date: 5/3/2015
    Subject: Re: Pitch, Yaw, Roll
    All AWES show mixed modes of Pitch-Roll-Yaw. AWES can exploit various mixed or pure modes, just as Joe suggests. Kite riggers constrain these motions by bridle and multi-tether design.

    Single anchor AWES naturally support pitch-based PTO by longitudinal pumping. Crosswind cableways support yaw-based PTO AWES. Roll PTO suggests a novel kite that pumps a dual bridle by rolling its wings. An airborne HAWT rotor can be seen as a rolling kiteplane.

    Earth itself can be assigned its own pitch-roll-yaw qualities, as an inverted negative-lift component mirroring kite lift. Prevailing wind can define a local longitudinal Earth roll axis, and resulting tether angles define state in all three modes. Tethered-wing pairs (and higher multiples) share the same mirror relations, under Newton's Third Law.

    Heaving, Swaying and Surging motions add further rich complexity to AWES dynamics.



    On Sunday, May 3, 2015 1:24 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
    ​Consider PTO from pitching.   PTObyP
    Consider PTO from yawing.​     PTObyY
    Consider PTO from rolling.      PTObyR
    Consider PTO from pitching and yawing.  PTObyPY
    Consider PTO from pitching and rolling.   PTObyPR
    Consider PTO from yawing and rolling.     PTObyYR
    Consider PTO from pitching, yawing, and rolling.  PTObyPYR

    Identify in an AWES the manner of PTO with respect to wing-set motions.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17744 From: dave santos Date: 5/3/2015
    Subject: Negative-Lift AWES Methods
    Low-Complexity AWE starts with cheap bulk Lift as a primary force, with added WECS generally accounted as Drag force. An interesting class of methods can use Negative-Lift as a primary WECS principle, for example a sweeping kiteplane pulling downwards against a pilot-lifter. As long as total positive lift exceeds negative lift, the entire AWES will fly. The huge advantage to flying kiteplanes suspended upside down it that its possible to keep it from crashing by purely passive means. Negative Lift may, however, also be a major power-harvesting mode (not just a minor component of other cycles).

    kPower is re-rigging its 2m WS electric glider (flown tethered last week in negative lift mode) to be IFO-like, with its wing reset upside down, and a Pacific WindPower mini-HAWT mounted on a pylon. It should sweep tow-high under a pilot-lifter at around 70mph in a good breeze, and not crash. Two demo apps are intended; One is to power a payload aloft at the pilot, with the WECS swishing like a cat's tail; another demo is to generate a bit of brown gas onboard, IFO style, to get started in that concept space, albeit with a "training-tether" to ensure early survival. Negative-Lift WECS may prove itself as well, as a useful AWES architecture.

    CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17745 From: Joe Faust Date: 5/3/2015
    Subject: Re: Negative-Lift AWES Methods
    • ​By pitch control we have had option of negative lift for wings. Airfoils rising and then AoA change to airfoils diving; such gives up-and-down cycles. 
    • We have loop laddermills of various sorts; one family has negative-lift for the set of rung wings that drive down while the up side of the loop has rung wings in positive lift. 
    • In figure paths of tethered wings we have portions of flight path of tethered wings with negative lift and portions of the path with positive lifting. ​
    • Portions of rotating HAWT cycles have blades with lift vector down (negative lift) while other blade are with positive lift (lift vector up).
    • We have had some coverage over tailed negative-lift wing elements. (Faust) 
    • Tethers resisting positive-lifting wings are in negative lift; one may have pulsating line-laundry where the elements open for negative lift and then close to reduce the negative lift; these may line a long tether that resists pilot upper wings.
    • Santos Sputnik in-line flappers when set with span horizontally have alternative negative lift and positive lift; up flying and then reverse to down flying. Flip wings. Flip, flip, flip, ...  + and - and + ...
    • Letting up be positive and down negative, then the Wayne German traversing wings set spanwise vertically give approximate zero lift in the orientation, but lift to right and then reversing to lift to left, etc.
    • During stunt flying of figures: There are portions of flying the wings with lift down (negative). 
    • Empennage's horizontal stabilizers are often set with some negative lift.
    • The oscillating parts of some musical kites obtain negative and positive lift.
    Portions of above: CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool