Digest

Pierre,

For power, the Daisy is best kept with its axis more horizontal than vertical, on the spectrum from HAWT to autogyro. Just enough lift to sustain its own mass is best from the "Dieppe Kite Master" POV. Lifter kites are far more efficient at providing lift, and also provide vital feedback to the power stack as to which way is up. Otherwise the looping or rotating wings come down still spinning. Complicating this is the torque ladder dynamics, which require extra tension to operate well, but this addressed by adding more cheap pilot lift and even raw drogue-force.

The combination of SSSL and Daisy is partly arbitrary, since many kinds of pilot-lifter could do the Daisy job, but we have high hopes for SS designs to reduce costs even below cheap parafoils. Similarly, the SSSL can lift many kinds of WECS, like flygen HAWTs or looping foils. Ever more optimal combinations will emerge from ongoing study (safety, cost, performance) and testing side-by-side (eg. two SSSLs each lifting a Daisy or Looping-Foil, to see which Open-AWE WECs seems favored in practice, and also each WECS tested with each Pilot Kite basis).

daveS

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 4:47 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

This Single Skin is used to lift Daisy. So I ask again a question about Daisy's own lift but in a different way. Can this kite lift several (why not 10 ) superimposed Daisy? Once Daisy is tilted is it produce enough lift to lift the next Daisy, etc.?

By the same can a well calculated kite-lifter generate a chain of both tilted and lifting rotors which are not able to lift by themselves.

In both two examples rotation axis is around tether(s) ,its both tilting and stability being determined by lift somewhere, while for autogyro-like rotation axis is around an axis settled in its body, not around tether, its both tilting and stability being determined by the place of the axis within the body.

PierreB

Ive been thinking about assisted take off methods and complete automation, Does anyone know of a system that can pack a kite like a parachute? Ideally there needs to be a system that can fly a kite in one spot, lower its kite automatically, pack it away, and relaunch in another spot. It will also be very useful for strong winds and storms.

Christian

DaveS,

As often, your analysis raises some interesting perspectives.

"...its axis more horizontal than vertical..." : that makes stacks less interesting (at less for soft rotating kites).
With a huge rotating kite a huge kite-lifter is needed. I think for safety _ avoiding ground contact _ and economy the rotating kite should have some (even small) lift by itself.

PierreB

There is still a place for short stacks, if the split wingtip similarity case of many birds can be applied. Also, many successful designs tolerate obvious flaws for lowest cost. The trick is to judge when.

Helical stacks shaped somewhat like DNA are still worth testing, despite their theoretic flaws, if only to further settle doubts from any quarter. Someone should build a Fry superturbine variant (like adding wings to Rod's ladder as the WECS, not the Daisy) to compare in flight with everything else.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:35 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

DaveS,

As often, your analysis raises some interesting perspectives.

"...its axis more horizontal than vertical..." : that makes stacks less interesting (at less for soft rotating kites).

With a huge rotating kite a huge kite-lifter is needed. I think for safety _ avoiding ground contact _ and economy the rotating kite should have some (even small) lift by itself.

PierreB

Based on Joe's teachings, we define parachutes as kites (as a class), so its quite natural to pop any kind of sorft-kite from packs. There is a spectrum of methods all the way to launching sails from turtles, socks, and the sailbag itself. A kite expert can improvise a "chute-pack" in minutes, as we found last year at kFarm, launching a small OL variant from the pilot kite's line.

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:10 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Christian

I am talking about a system that can do this automatically without human intervention. How has this been implemented?

Ideally the kite will reel in and then pack itself away without the need for a technician.

Several autonomous military payload steerable parafoil systems pack as chutes, and space payload returns and skydiving back-ups have been barometrically triggered rip-cord releases, for decades. Plenty of prior art to design from.

Beware getting too much free consulting from the AWES Forum if your secret investor should be paying for fair value. Open AWE and stealth ventures are a tricky balance, but lets make it work..

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 1:47 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

I am talking about a system that can do this automatically without human intervention. How has this been implemented?

Ideally the kite will reel in and then pack itself away without the need for a technician.

Of course I read your email. Sorry if reporting the closest cases as best I can is "ridiculous" in your eyes, if there is no exact case that meets your criteria.

You wrote: "I am talking about a system that can do this" meaning, in his words, "assisted take off methods" and "can pack a kite like a parachute"

I have already recently noted the Spinnaker-Sock as the self-stowing similarity case, and long promoted the Morse Sled for auto relaunch. Note that all engineered "systems" have a human-in-the-loop somewhere in the cycle. If you propose real "complete automation", you might need to design an advanced android :)

On Saturday, April 18, 2015 2:46 PM, "Cleventine christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

With a few more years' progress, LIDAR will be mature and cheap enough to support AWES operations-

Research - Working groups - Coherent structures - Projects - KIT Young Investigator Group "Exploring coherent structures using Dual Doppler lidar systems (EDDy)"



				Research - Working groups - Coherent structures - Projec... In this project a new measurement approach using Dual Doppler lidar to detect coherent structures is developed and applied.

				View on www.imk-tro.kit.edu	Preview by Yahoo

Are those quotes the only part you read? It was hardly 3 sentences in all, no need to quote. But you did miss the point of the email, which was

"Ideally the kite will reel in and then pack itself away without the need for a technician."

Anyway, thank you for in a way answering the question, it seems the answer is no. And yes I could work on an android.. Lol, but my imagination is a bit more flexible.

It's wide open to develop such a capability, but it has to compete on cost and performance. Note that you do not want a kite packed wet.

I tried to quote the essentials of your scheme that I was responding to, rather than the whole message. Be aware that kites are formally hyper-chaotic, so reliable automation is barely in reach in the next decade or so.

The developers have a lot of hard work to do, no one has done it well enough yet, but they will...

From: Cleventine christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
Sent: ‎4/‎18/‎2015 6:23 PM
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AWES] Different types pf kites

Are those quotes the only part you read? It was hardly 3 sentences in all, no need to quote. But you did miss the point of the email, which was

"Ideally the kite will reel in and then pack itself away without the need for a technician."

Anyway, thank you for in a way answering the question, it seems the answer is no. And yes I could work on an android.. Lol, but my imagination is a bit more flexible.

And we can see where this road is leading....

...Or where from it comes...

PierreB


10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers    
 
 
   
 
       
   
 
        10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers   This collection of videos was created about half a century ago to explain fluid mechanics in an accessible way for undergraduate engineering and physics...
  
 
   
 
 
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Single line lift kites are notoriously hard to make stable...

Simply adding extra steering inputs helps...
One of my videos... https://youtu.be/GWXIUnNfQHI

In the video ... kid controls what was a single line kite to perform loops

The Point I'm going to make here is highlighted in this video
https://youtu.be/fcradVE9uts

A single prop drone unit is uselessly unstable. (for obvious reasons)

But array joined, adjustments are easily make to maintain planar stability.

Back to lift kites and how to array them to gain stable weathercocking flight characteristics from shared tensioned net. Approaches I see are...

Kixel Steering is fixed to the net. The net as a whole rotates. Tip attachment (like surf kites) Can be used to fix lift kixels to net. Adjusting the overall net form is limited by kixel attachment density, tip configuration and altitude etc.
Kixels retain individually addressable steering by being affixed to loadpaths with central bridling.

On a rotating Meta kite, kixel steer can be cross bridled to the rotary feet.
On Isotropic mesh Meta kite, Kixel steer is added alongside the main tether through tubed bearings at the nodes

Alternate method For "Single line" +2 line steerable Kixel on isotropic net. Steering is derived through a bearing and rod nodes configuration tied inline with local net tension. The net is non rotating but actively adjusts all node tethering to provide variable overall lift forms. Variation in the derived steering will be dependant on net form and relative tensions and localised winds.
Three interwoven triangular latices have their external tensions adjusted in relation... Thus adjusting the aspect of each kixel on the mesh.
A central rising body or cone of linked kite layers (bee under starling under seagull under albatross) spreads out toward 2x side wing forms. The sides are adjusted against the stability of the centre to steer and thrust the complete form as needed. Sides need rail/belay pulleys ... but can be set to great pull effect which can drive collectedly in the centre @ ground .

Of the above... option 2 b is my favourite. For scalability and coolness sakes.

Although 5 is enticing in it's simplicity.

To make 2b...

build a hexagonal net. (with or without triangular infills for lift slinging (dependant on if you want WECs on the steering and tense lines or not))

At the net nodes have a ring, affix bearing onto the ring. Set the lift line at the distance to the lift kite in the middle of the bearing inner. To each side of the lift line pass a steer line freely flowing through holes in the bearing inner rotatable part.

You can now actively adjust the whole net altitude and attitude with kixel lift lines ... and allow isotropic kixel steering , and host wecs on each line including looping parafoils, daisys, hung turbine arrays...

CC4.0 nc by sa + open awes

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Ideas floating around taking form from the following ...
https://youtu.be/cTphftirdW0
https://youtu.be/oSgcwh2XA0U

If this control horn https://youtu.be/yRZe98h9HiE is held inside a bearing on each node of a hexmesh net...
ISOTROPIC LIFT MESH SORTED.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Lift kite kill is really easy using lower melting point lines for lift kites...

Lightweight, low drag, high performance pro lines usually have low melt point.

Great for lifting efficiently... but really good for chopping remotely.

I positioned a little symphony beach 1.3m kite to blow over a 4 bridle, 4 cell PL parafoil down to ground yesterday... then walked it over to the SSSL and chopped it's 220 dN lines with the cheap string.

OK this was silly as I was in an offshore wind and right near a cliff... but the limp SSSl fell with 10m to spare before going over. phew.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

It has long been presumed that a pilot-kite can enable a hot flygen kiteplane to fly more reliably simply by holding it up from the surface. Earlier today, kPower demonstrated this capability with a 2m WS Radian electric glider under a Gomberg Super Sled at Meller Park, Austin (Texas AWE Encampment session). The mainline was ~250ft of Purple Plasma, and the e-glider was on ~100ft line set ~50 down from the pilot-lifter. A North wind was slacking from gusty to lulls, with turbulence from thermals and buildings upwind. Also present at the session was David, Betty, and Ed Sapir. Betty took video. We'll see if we can get a nice clip to upload soon.

Controlled sweeping flight of the kiteplane was shown in both upright and inverted (both hi- and lo- tow points) testing, but the COTS RC model was badly under-actuated at low velocity, as KULeuven also found for its hot glider-based kiteplane. Control surface extensions are needed for greater aero-effectiveness. Its notable that a kite plane is free to dangle at low apparent velocity, quite unlike normal glider flight. Initiating sweeping underactuated in low-wind is done by waggling gently into in progressively larger dutch-roll oscillation. We also powered up the prop a few times, to get things going that way.

For the next experiment, a Pacific SkyPower turbine made by Dan Tracy replaces the original motor, as a proper WECS (the PSP looks like a Speed 400 inside its cover tube), plus control-surface extensions, and many minor improvements. This rig fills an important gap in kPower's diverse quiver, intended to comparatively direct-test all major AWES concepts, as technical due diligence.

Question: Would a trailing tail-kill line have been spared, to securely retain the kite from the cliff?

Note: Not just low melting-temp PE lines, but most kinds of lines are easily cut by most other lines provided the cutting line is smaller and moving across the other line at one spot, often in a sawing rhythm easily unnoticed as dancing kites interact at a kite festival. Large-kite flyers at some festivals must be especially vigilant against stray children's kites fouling or cutting from windward.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 2:23 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Lift kite kill is really easy using lower melting point lines for lift kites...

Lightweight, low drag, high performance pro lines usually have low melt point.

Great for lifting efficiently... but really good for chopping remotely.

OK this was silly as I was in an offshore wind and right near a cliff... but the limp SSSl fell with 10m to spare before going over. phew.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Lower level horns could allow for more pass through tubes to allow for individual addressing of kites on upper layers.

On 20 Apr 2015 22:13, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com

Classic Edos have a small rigging plate where the many bridles pass thru in an orderly matrix, allowing readily addressable individual tuning. A modern dynamic version could have each hole be a low-friction roller or horn form.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 3:19 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Lower level horns could allow for more pass through tubes to allow for individual addressing of kites on upper layers.

On 20 Apr 2015 22:13, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com

Furthering the topic of AWES array stability (aka "aggregate stability"), there is a strong engineering relation to the fundamentals of statistical mechanics (Law of Large Numbers, and Central Limit Theorem). Thus, as we create many-connected topological order between our airborne units, we gain practical reliability and higher capacity-density. We move our group statistics in favored ways, consistent with thermodynamic Information Theory, Network Theory, and Quantum Computing. In particular, bit-unit error correction is strong in a properly cross-linked array, just as a mountaineering team ropes together.

Rod's quadcopter case here is a fresh illustration of counter-entropic statistics into higher crystalline order, with an associated increase in coherent capability. Branching kite trains are the standing kite case to show how individually chaotic kites are tamed in aggregate (although even more constrained train types show even higher order, but less dramatically).

On Monday, April 20, 2015 3:31 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

Lower level horns could allow for more pass through tubes to allow for individual addressing of kites on upper layers.

On 20 Apr 2015 22:13, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com

Over fifty years of reflection, one of Joe's greatest insights into modern kite physics was to see a fundamental topological kite in all truly aerodynamic objects, from leaves to airplanes. Before Joe, kite and airplane were loosely equated, but not strongly unified. In Joe's new way of seeing the kite, what matters is the topological order of an anchored wing in a flow, not so much its geometric proportions, which can vary wildly. Higher topological orders are built from Joe's fundamental kite unit described here, as stacks, trains, arches, etc..

The unit kite anchor can be the Earth itself, or the flying system can provide its own anchor in acting aerodynamically against its own center-of-mass; both cases are the same topological kite structure under "Joe's Theorem". The special case of two kites acting against each other, to sustain flight across shear-flow, is topologically more distinct than Pocock's childhood kite compared to a jumbo-jet. "One sky" is another key feature of the AWE topological view. These insights naturally emerge from real flying cultures, however nonsensical to non-fliers.

Taken to logical conclusions, a child's kite recruits the whole Earth into comprising a canonical aircraft. Further, all the kite flyers of the One Sky, One World kite fest intuitively form the parts of a single global kite system; many little wings adding to a greater whole. This is a unified model of the AWE community, however divided it may sometimes seem. Thus Joe's topological view enables regarding the urgent global demand for clean renewable energy as a single natural unit, and drives our theoretic AWES thinking to a quasi single-unit solution view, as a world meta-kite.

As a highly-evolved buoyant streamlined form on a stalk, with quick-retract and powerful rotors operating at low-Re; Vorticella is at least one more encouraging biological case closely resembling an AWES. Its not too hard to imagine a wind-driven soft-kite version spinning aloft, if not as the ideal solution to our needs, at least as a cool kite-fest novelty.

Vorticella - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



				Vorticella - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Vorticella is a genus of protozoa, with over 16 known species. They are stalked, inverted bell-shaped ciliates, placed among the peritrichs. Each cell has a separat...

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Pardon me for having a view that differs from what daveS expressed (imagine that!) but my take is (as much as I am thrilled with your level of enthusiasm) you guys are mostly conducting a little mutual admiration society, or maybe more like a circle-jerk. First off, the statement "Before Joe, kite and airplane were loosely equated, but not strongly unified." does not agree with what I had learned about early flight by second grade:

The Wrights and others were shifting between kites, gliders, then finally a powered airplane, as branches of a unified concept, while they developed the airplane specifically from the kite. Many prototypes startes as kites, which were then turned into gliders, and finally powered. So the kite-airplane unification began before the first airplane even flew! The idea that Joe originated the idea by postulations on the internet in the 21st century seems very inaccurate, since the airplane was originated from kites, by kite-flyers, and to this day, small gliders with cloth wings are still often called "kites" - I know mine was.

Then we have DaveS endlessly declaring how kites are really examples quantum physics, implying that if only people could grasp his insights, we'd suddenly have instant success in AWE, despite the fact that most of the ideas expressed for working mechanisms do not meet even the minimum well-understood standards of what is known to make usable power from the wind, and despite no evidence of veracity and no person from the physics community agreeing. In that case, I'd say we have a one-person circle-jerk, since nobody else seems to participate in the quantum discussions, although if he turned out to be right he would be a visionary. To me, all the talk of quantum physics is mostly an internal delaying tactic, in lieu of showing anything working.

I was disturbed by this dynamic from the moment I walked into the first international AWE conference, only to find a vacuum of wind energy knowledge, a complete disinterest, really, while Joe & Co. gleefully fixated on merely "flying kites" and "Germy Awards". The persistent dynamic here is endless worship (and I do mean worship, in your own words, consistently calling mere kite-flyers "gods", etc.) of those who never have, and probably never will, produce anything that makes even a single watt of wind power, while ignoring or deriding those who DO make power and who DO understand wind energy.

In colloquial terms, I'd have to say you guys are mostly "smoking your own crack", "drinking your own Kool-Aid" and maybe having a "cluster-bleep" in this fixation on endless talk of ideas that are not built, and if built, never making significant power, but instead, expressing dubious and mostly disproven notions that are just talk-talk-talked about in the most minute details, while the overall realistic picture seems to just "fly right over your heads", (forgive the pun) unacknowledged, unrecognized, and unmentioned.

Beyond that, I heartily endorse the raw enthusiasm of you guys, and I hope someone, hopefully one of us, will get something going that surprises everyone, soon!
:)
DougS

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Doug,

You are the only figure in AWE to self-claim to be the "greatest". The rest is just you trying to get a flame war going.

Joe is a great figure in AWE, on his merits since the '60s; no matter if you cannot see it yet, for lack of study,

daveS

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:03 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Around ten years ago DaveL was openly pondering how technologically close a 1kW AWE demo was, and in fact Italian friends* were generating multi-kW bursts, and currently TUDelft online accepts 80kW (with 100kW peaks elsewhere reported) as properly demonstrated. There has been an order-of-magnitude-or-two growth in demonstrated AWES power in the last ten years, and a lot of research momentum for this exponential trend to continue upwards for years.

It should be noted that most of AWE's useful research is done at smaller scales and in simulations; that the max power trend is just the tip of the growing R&D iceberg. There is a comparable explosion in the number of teams, and progress on all fronts, which explains the high enthusiasm evident.

-------------

* Especially MarioM's circle.

daveS: You guys are mired in an "echo-chamber" mentality, where you shout, then listen for the echo as confirmation of your shout. For example, you go into great detail "shouting" about quantum-this and Einstein-that, as long as there is only your own echo to agree with, but the moment someone transmits your shout outside the echo-chamber to a group of physics people, you are suddenly and mysteriously silent.

If you really had such interest and expertise in quantum physics, you'd be unable to resist taking that discussion into the realm of a physics forum, but there you would face opinions other than your own echo, by people who have some familiarity with the subject matter, therefore you are 100% uninterested. The only interesting thing for you is hearing your own echo back. THen the mutual-admiration society can slap each other on the back, declaring what geniuses each other are, for doing nothing but blathering nonsense on the internet.

If you say Joe is responsible for first noticing kites are similar to airplanes, and I point out that the first airplanes were literally powered kites, long before any of us, including Joe, was even born, you have no response - even though you are already well-aware of this fact, it is not part of your mutual-admiration-society self-reinforcing echo chamber. You like to hear your own voice come back off the giant rock wall in the distance, and are surprised when a different voice comes back, leaving you baffled, with no response.

Sorry, but people have been noticing leaves blowing in the wind since before people were people, and claiming that they are "a kite" is no revelation, just one more echo in the echo chamber - more nothingness masquerading as something-ness.

My dog was similarly fascinated by leaves blowing in the wind, at least until she grew past the puppy stage. To her, a blowing leaf was "prey" to be pounced on. I suppose a few puppies together might echo this notion a time or two, like a puppy-echo-chamber, until they realized it only acted like prey in a very limited way, and was not in fact prey at all, just a leaf, blowing in the wind.

You similarly note that several kites can be configured to mutually stabilize each other (a mutually-reinforcing echo-chamber of kites?), but that is not enough. To make your observation worship-worthy in the echo-chamber, it must become something "only you can understand", it must invoke the name "Einstein" - it must become "quantum physics", making you an extreme genius, the likes of which nobody has seen before, with insights so profound they need never be built or realized, just worshiped. The idea that kites tied together could lend mutual stability simply "because they are tied together" would be just too boring,with no provision to be raised to the standard of "worship" in "the echo-chamber" of would-be genius.

It almost seems that you have a need to cite increasingly bizarre notions on a daily basis, as though you are broadcasting a "play-by-play" coverage of an imaginary AWE that could not exist without your daily commentary (Schroedinger's KITE?), whether you actually have anything to say or not.

I'd say, if you really believed in your quantum-kite-physics, you'd be unable to resist discussing it with quantum physics people, but of course they seem to agree, so far, that your postulations are off-target. Similarly regarding the idea that Joe was the first to equate airplanes and kites only resonates in an echo chamber with no disparate voices. Enter anyone else's opinion, and your echoes fall flat. I can agree that Joe is a great guy without giving him credit for first noticing that airplanes are similar to kites. And I can agree that kites can mutually stabilize without claiming that if they can wiggle together, it is suddenly "quantum physics" or, "the ultimate and final answer to the energy crisis" (crisis? does everything have to be "a crisis"?) per se.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

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10 years is a long time to claim you have a simple and useful paradigm, while still not actually powering anything. Yes it sounds impressive to say peaks of 100k W have been generated, and I wish the best for any kite-reelers (I would be happy to be proven wrong) , but in the real world of energy production, it is well-understood that any variety of techniques can generate SOME amount of power, for SOME amount of time, under SOME circumstances, at SOME cost, but whether it is a useful or economical method of power production is another matter.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but hearing people declare their methods are "cutting edge" due to being "cross-wind" is like someone claiming to be a math genius because they have developed a "new" "numbers-based" system of math, or a writer claiming to have developed an "alphabet-based" system of writing, and that it is therefore "a breakthrough". By the time they first use but then throw away that same cross-wind motion and go back to simply pulling on a kitestring, well, I have to seriously wonder if it will ever pan out.

Of course the great commentator-of-commentators decares in typical "echo-chamber" fashion that all of the above is only to set "a baseline". Interesting that we have not heard any of the actual PRACTITIONERS of kite-reeling declaring "it is only to set a baseline", just daveS in his echo chamber.

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Doug,

There is in fact a vigorous circle discussing deep kite physics off-Forum, since you keep the AWES Forum such a hostile place for the topic. The physics posts shared here are intended for data-mining primarily, since a civil physics discussion is not allowed by you. Enjoy the echo-chamber then,

daveS

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 12:58 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Lets be clear that only USWindlabs is recorded not to have powered a load by AWE, compared to the many teams who have done all kinds of electrical and mechanical work, and doing so ongoingly at ever higher power. Doug's complaints are uniquely apt to his own case, while the winners in AWE are faring far better.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 1:13 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...

Profethor Crackpot thaid: "Let'th be clear that only U-Eth-Windlabth ith recorded not to have powered a load by AWE" ***Doug replies: Au contraire mon frere. Apparently you "failed" to look at the clamp amp meter (hall effect) and volt meter, attached to the batteries being charged by the working demo SuperTurbine(R) which I took the trouble to bring and set up so that people interested in airborne wind energy could see a working example, at the first world AWE conference.

I figured some people might like to see how simple a steady-state, working AWE system could be, demonstrating that basically any idiot could build one in his garage. The fact that you weren't interested enough to look at the meters is nobody else's problem. I guess maybe if I were grasping at straws, I could have offered a harbor-freight 110 inverter outlet so people could "charge their cel phones", but to me, such feeble symbolic demos are unnecessary when you can just look at the meters and see the output.

If you had looked a bit closer you would have seen all the burn-marks on the ceiling of the cargo area in the vehicle from batteries exploding from being overcharged, but since the winds were light, you didn't get to see any explosions from the immense power of SuperTurbine(R) at that venue.

(This message powered by wind...)

Sorry, I did not see your battery load connected,n either first-hand, nor in the videos; but if you claim so, lets take your word for it. Any data is appreciated. The yardstick demo also seemed disconnected, in its video. So, how close to 100kW, AWE's rough current record, did you come?

If you really were making power in 2009, something terrible happened. Why are you not able to make more power today? To only crap on those who persist is not good enough. You must work hard to keep up or, "you came to the wrong place", with nothing new at all to show, as years go by. At least the hundreds of documented Open-AWE and academic experiments do advance matters, even if its like watching the grass grow. Learn to be happy as winners emerge from different technological premises than your less-workable ideas..

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 4:25 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Disambiguation: "AWE's rough current (~2015) power record (100kW)"

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 5:21 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com

In Open-AWE we learn wind tech essentials from a fine selection of "real wind" figures, mostly off-Forum. We draw on wonderful mentors like Coy Harris, Chris Carlin, Michael Osborne, Dan Fink, Fort Felker, and so on; but top conventional wind expertise is just a start to the deep multidisciplinary knowledge required to succeed. The following fields are my picks of essential knowledge domains in AWE. The strong prediction is AWE's winning circle must master them all:

"Sorry, I did not see your battery load connected,n either first-hand, nor in the videos;"
*** You were too busy basking in the glory of a 1-Watt cel-phone call while I was making up to a kiloWatt.

"but if you claim so, lets take your word for it."
*** As always, trying to rewrite history - i show up with a working demo that flies for 2 days, fully instrumented, opening the door for you to have ignored it then accuse me of never making any power, whereas I was making about 1000 times as much as you. Typical daveS misbahavior.

"Any data is appreciated."
*** You missed your chance

"The yardstick demo also seemed disconnected, in its video."
*** Could be, it was mostly for comedy, and to show how anyone with $20 can make some semblance of a working AWES system, lest any Professor Crackpots out there suffer under the delusion that they require a million dollars to "prove" that bad ideas are good ideas

"So, how close to 100kW, AWE's rough current record, did you come?"
*** Closer than you, that's for sure, and I probably have a record for power made per dollar spent

"If you really were making power in 2009, something terrible happened."
***Oh, here we go again, daveS imagines he is in charge of all facts, even if it is just a matter of him not paying attention. Yeah, something terrible happened - you were willfully ignorant, as usual.

"Why are you not able to make more power today?"
***Well you know the saying "show a man how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime"? The reality is "show a man how to fish and he will ask you for another fish."

"To only crap on those who persist is not good enough."
*** I crap on nobody - I leave that honor to you.

"You must work hard to keep up or, "you came to the wrong place", with nothing new at all to show, as years go by."
*** As an apparent hare in a field of apparent tortoises, I can afford to rest. I threw the opening pitch, and nobody swung at it, nobody caught it. Try coming up with something original.

"At least the hundreds of documented Open-AWE and academic experiments do advance matters,"
*** Sure daveS, even negative results are still results, right? If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. If you are digging a hole to reach the sky, you'll be digging for a LONG time.

"even if its like watching the grass grow."
*** Grass grows faster than that even here, in the driest desert in North America, during a drought.

"Learn to be happy as winners emerge from different technological premises than your less-workable ideas.."
***Oh, OK Nostradamus. I'd be happy if you ever shut up. That would make everyone a winner. I thought you told us all you had "the answer" with your "Bose-Einstein" flapping stacks. What's the matter with your "quantum physics" effort now, if you say you've "cracked the code"? I don't see any flapping stacks turning any electric meters. Blather on, my friend...

Why is "quantum physics" missing from your list? One day it's "the answer", the next, it can be completely ignored - forgotten. You've been stating that the Bose-Einstein mutually-reinforcing stacks of flappers are THE answer, in no uncertain terms. And it does sound pretty cool, even if no quantum physics are actually involved. I'd love to see it. and I think I might even have an idea or two that could help. Bearing in mind of course that half a laddermill that jerks back and forth instead of rotating as a loop was an obvious precursor idea to "laddermill", which of course was a precursor to SuperTurbine(R). I'd have my doubts about power output and longevity, assuming anyone could actually get it to work, but if you say you think it's the "final answer" (Regis Philbin?) it would therefore seem incongruous for you to be talking of other methods, or talking at all, since you have the Bose-Einstein answer, why are you not developing it?

Doug,

You were way too late to "throw the opening pitch" in AWE. Peter Lynn, Jitrenda Goela, MarioM, and Massimo are just a few of the prior AWE figures who tested AWES well before you. All of them continue to develop new capability within their thriving circles. You never were in the lead, given your inherent low-altitude small-scale driveshaft AWES limitations. Its also clear you are not active now, given the excuses,

dave

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:06 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

QM is not missing, but implicit in the science domains. The extension of aeroelastic theory in AWE by QM is currently presented more as a theoretic inspiration to new AWES lattice concepts, which must be validated by testing. Experimental designs are in process. If you cannot properly value inspiration and testing of new AWES ideas, you came to the wrong place.

You badly overlook how Joe really has redefined the kite compared to all prior definitions, resulting in the new topological view, and new AWES architectures emerging.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:54 PM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

Not sure if the scaled up rotors will work the same way since the
reynolds number won't be the same unless you make the air more viscous
to compensate for the increase in characteristic length.

Andrew K

"Vorticella are heterotrophic organsims. *(then she slapped me) They prey on bacteria. Vorticella use their cilia to create a current of water (vortex) to direct food towards its mouth."
Sounds like a ducted turbine to me. I think these Vorticella should consider shape-shifting, adding multiple layers, and spinning, to create a microscopic SuperTurbine(R). Too bad mother nature abhors a wheel almost as much as a vaccuum. Wait, most everywhere we know of is a vacuum. Oh well, one more truism smashed. I don't think we have seen a biological version of a rotational bearing yet. But if nature could grow a wind turbine, it would be a SuperTurbine(R), which formed part of the thinking behind it.

Facsimile rotors surely would scale for a softkite-based Vorticella analog, based on all the softkite rotors at all kite scales that obviously already work. One designs a rotor in detail to whatever Re regime is intended, to see it work as expected. What keeps a large Vorticella kite-version's Re toward the low end is the low dimensionless velocities of natural wind.

Of course we want to know more about the Vorticella rotor. We presume it to work by phased oscillations rather than true rotation, like bacterial flagella. Either way, a novelty kite version is doable in principle.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 8:26 PM, "Andrew K aklist04@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

A bearing is tied with it's hollow axis normal to the node of a hex mesh.

Through the axis run lift kite lines... 1 Main lift line and one or more steering lines.

Pierce a split ring twice through the main lift line.
When this ring is lifted up to the bearing the node is lifted, yet the lines through the bearing are still able to rotate around each other and the control lines are still able to pass freely through the bearing.

If you want to run the control lines to ground alongside the lift line... Then encase them inside feed horn attached to the main lift line where you want to add WECS to the main line. (This can also be rotary WECS if they attach and rotate around the horns similarly to above.

If you want to run the control lines along the mesh loadpath you can maintain individual or group addressing of lift kite steering needs.

See http://youtu.be/ODGMgxIQtIs for a demo of the rig I am about to test.

CC4.0nc by sa+ open awes

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Yeah, the test went quite well... as expected.

In a very rolling wind field, right behind our house, and on very short lines...

The tripod / mesh node simulation was fairly tight (especially on the upwind side) so the kite didn't wonder far as it was stayed by the tripod loadpaths.

The kite as normal on a very short tether was unsteady and prone to driving itself off the wind. This would be better with longer line above the node.

Steering worked well through the node. Taking lift pressure off the node still left the node tight.

Let me know if you want some video posted.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org

http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk

Line Lifters

( ... later I will post more on this topic; meanwhile feel free to advance the topic; it is late and I wanted to form the topic start. Thanks.)

There are categories of line lifters. Feel free to describe categories of line lifters. Some line lifters distinctly could be successful playing wing in a single-wing-single-main-tether kite system. Some line lifters play well in a lifted main line, but disappoint when challenged directly to be the wing in a single-wing-single-main-tether kite system; such branch of line lifters has been in my lab focus recently.

tag: linelifter linelifters

Are tarps really possible in AWE industrial production? And with what processes? Sewings? Welds?

PierreB

"The hope is that mass production of AWES sails can follow cheap polymer feedstock, fiber, and membrane market models, owing to the economics of automated roll-stock processing."

Interesting idea. But how? By producing square trips then assembling them into the wished shape?

PierreB

The "wished shape" was the classic square sail, without extra tailoring nor waste of the large roll-stock. Modern sails of high quality can be either membrane or woven. The initial use of tarps was to quickly meet Felker's challenge using the most available retail product able to meet his cost-to-mass challenge, but it was always intended that large-scale AWES production would adopt even better materials and design than HMWPE woven film, with true wholesale mass-production economics.

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:37 AM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

"The hope is that mass production of AWES sails can follow cheap polymer feedstock, fiber, and membrane market models, owing to the economics of automated roll-stock processing."

Interesting idea. But how? By producing square trips then assembling them into the wished shape?

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17646	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17647	From: Christian Harrell	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17648	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17649	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17650	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17651	From: Christian Harrell	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17652	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17653	From: Cleventine	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17654	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17655	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Progress in LIDAR Wind Imaging

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17656	From: Cleventine	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17657	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17658	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/19/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17659	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 4/19/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17660	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Boundary Layers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17661	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Array stability : Drone similarity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17662	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Re: Array stability : Drone similarity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17663	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: kite pruning

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17664	From: dave santos	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Electric SailPlane flown from Pilot-Lifter

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17665	From: dave santos	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Re: kite pruning

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17666	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Re: Array stability : Drone similarity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17667	From: dave santos	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Re: Array stability : Drone similarity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17668	From: dave santos	Date: 4/20/2015
Subject: Early '90s Kite Kayaking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17669	From: dave santos	Date: 4/21/2015
Subject: Re: Array stability : Drone similarity

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17670	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Extending Joe's Fundamental Kite Theorem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17671	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Vorticella Biomimetic AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17672	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Extending Joe's Fundamental Kite Theorem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17673	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Extending Joe's Fundamental Kite Theorem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17674	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17675	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Extending Joe's Fundamental Kite Theorem - echo chamber

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17676	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17677	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Extending Joe's Fundamental Kite Theorem - echo chamber

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17678	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17679	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17680	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17681	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17682	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Essential Knowledge Domains for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17683	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17684	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Essential Knowledge Domains for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17685	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Growing Power Statistics by AWES R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17686	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Essential Knowledge Domains for AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17687	From: Andrew K	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Vorticella Biomimetic AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17688	From: dougselsam	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Vorticella Biomimetic AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17689	From: dave santos	Date: 4/22/2015
Subject: Re: Vorticella Biomimetic AWES Similarity Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17690	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/23/2015
Subject: Through node lift control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17691	From: Rod Read	Date: 4/23/2015
Subject: Re: Through node lift control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17692	From: joe_f_90032	Date: 4/24/2015
Subject: Line Lifters

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17693	From: benhaiemp	Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: "Felker's Challenge (large-scale wind powered aviation platform

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17694	From: benhaiemp	Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: "Felker's Challenge (large-scale wind powered aviation platform

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17695	From: dave santos	Date: 4/25/2015
Subject: Re: "Felker's Challenge (large-scale wind powered aviation platform

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17646	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17647	From: Christian Harrell	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Different types pf kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17648	From: Pierre BENHAIEM	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

Group: AirborneWindEnergy	Message: 17649	From: dave santos	Date: 4/18/2015
Subject: Re: Lift , tilt and stability of rotation axis

10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers 10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers This collection of videos was created about half a century ago to explain fluid mechanics in an accessible way for undergraduate engineering and physics... View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo

10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers

10. Fundamentals of Boundary Layers
This collection of videos was created about half a century ago to explain fluid mechanics in an accessible way for undergraduate engineering and physics...

View on www.youtube.com

Preview by Yahoo