Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                          AWES 17193 to 17242 Page 238 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17193 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Slotted-Wings and Kite Stacks (VentAir Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17194 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17195 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17196 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17197 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17198 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17199 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2015
Subject: Makani Confidential- PR update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17200 From: Rod Read Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17201 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17202 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17203 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17204 From: Rod Read Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17205 From: edoishi Date: 3/17/2015
Subject: kPower at JJ Pickle Research Campus

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17206 From: dave santos Date: 3/17/2015
Subject: Re: kPower at JJ Pickle Research Campus

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17207 From: edoishi Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Makani to launch new wing next month

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17208 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Makani to launch new wing next month

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17209 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17210 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17211 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17212 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17213 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17214 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: 2015 World Record Encampment (WRE) News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17215 From: dougselsam Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: More Hang Gliding: Crestline

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17216 From: dougselsam Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17217 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: Re: 2015 World Record Encampment (WRE) News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17218 From: dave santos Date: 3/20/2015
Subject: AWE highlights en-route to Texas AWE Encampment

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17219 From: dave santos Date: 3/20/2015
Subject: Google's Kite Energy Search Results in a broader context

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17220 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: DuckDuckGo Search Results for - kite energy - (JoeF's site tops ran

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17221 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind generator

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17222 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17223 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17224 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17225 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17226 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: (Woops, I had the wake backwards) Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electr

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17227 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17228 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17229 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17230 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17231 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17232 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17233 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: kite wake and new inspirations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17234 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17235 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: kite wake and new inspirations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17236 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: kite wake and new inspirations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17237 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Tent anchoring PTO

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17238 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17239 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Clip and carbon3d

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17240 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17241 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17242 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Clip and carbon3d



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17193 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Slotted-Wings and Kite Stacks (VentAir Case)
Many bird wings operate as slotted wings (by spread tip feathers), for both gliding and flapping flight. Aviation has validated slotted wings as successful transport (airliner) wings; which open up planform area by slats and flaps for a higher lift (and/or drag) coefficient, but come together as one smaller wing for low-drag cruise. Kites often have slotted wing features, and the modern Kite Stack is a slotted wing configuration. Stacks can speed up turn rate in AWES flight patterns, with comparable power, and are a scaling path for kPower looping foils.

Recent AWE start-ups are emerging a bit late to the party, but still bring latent talent and sparks of independent thinking (VentAir and eWind come to mind). VentAir's AWES concept can be seen as a slotted-wing concept, where a single closed wing opens up into a stack of louvers. Their starting assumption is a work cycle where the solid wing surface provides the traction phase, and the louvers open up to "vent" the wing for a low drag retract. This reverses function seen in birds and planes; but much basic physics can run backwards or forwards.

Elite kite designers are long used to good kite ideas that do not work well as first intended, but then are found to work well "backwards", as never intended* [KiteLab Group, Peter Lynn]. VentAir's concept seems backwards in relation to bird and airplane design, and so may be "ace" if reversed. The new slotted-wing cycle would be to do traction at high lift-coefficient, with slots open (overall wing at high AoA), and do low-drag retract with slots closed (wing at 0deg AoA.).

A new insight the VentAir case adds is that a kite-stack of parafoils might vary from an open stack state, for traction, to a compact single closed wing, for retract (controversy over a long reeling cycle v. a short pumping cycle is a separate issue). The folding bird wing and KiteGen side-slip method might even apply, for further reduced retract-cycle drag. Here is a wide-open research direction in Low-Complexity Open-AWE thinking.

CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool
----------------
* Many of these reversals are quantum-interference patterns in the design state-spaces (Debye model phonons). The fact that AWE thermodynamics run "backwards" compared to powered flight further accounts for much reversed-dynamics confusion.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17194 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod
Kites tradtionally constrain pitch and/or roll by means of bridling. TUDelft represents Control Pod design to modulate bridle geometry for turning and depowering. Ampyx represents the extreme case of a kite plane with no bridle that depends on traditional airplane control surfaces (ailerons, elevator and rudder, or elevons) to maintain proper flight attitude. Enerkite's flying wing attitude control is still a mystery (the "confidential" shop photo shows no aileron or elevon structure, but in principle could go either way.

A third solution (with no known prior-art yet*) is to modulate bridle geometry from the kite(plane), with small winch servo-motors embedded in the wing. This design configuration would have certain inherent advantages, including drag reduction and reduced mechanical complexity. Controls could cross-link internally to allow a single servo to actuate both sides of the wing. Highly compliant wing sections are favored for better passive flight response, with less drag and reduced structural mass (compared to active compliance by stiff control surfaces). 

CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool

---------------
* The nearest similarity case is moving bridle-points along tracks on the wing, which has prior art in the pitch control of early TUDelft Peter Lynn traction foils; but is mechanically more complex, with a higher mass-aloft requirement, than simple servo-winching from fixed points.




 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17195 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod
Just how much Rogallo, et al, forwarded in
for in-wing control with "boltrope" control and related realizations is a matter of study. See hung payload as the towing force site. Full exploration of the control considerations in parawing ventures of the 1960s may be once source of art for manipulating wing geometry by in-wing servos that may also alter the lines to hung payloads. 
   ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17196 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod
Setting the scene with a hybrid where the "wing" set is with two members and one member is RC controlled: 
Ockels, 2000,
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17197 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod
Amazing memory for detail, Joe. No one else on the planet can make such ready connections in kite tech. Good then; wing embedded bridle actuation is already open-source Rogallo (who virtuously released his patents, which would be expired anyhow), and Open-AWE's small contribution to the Great Rogallo's inventiveness is to apply his ideas to AWE.

Rogallo was concerned with a clean design for diverse aerospace payloads, so he integrated everything in-wing, rather than our different motive, to reduce control-pod drag. His mechanical complexity was equivalently lessened compared to rigid-hinged control surfaces. The control-pod concept clearly became more intuitive as standard parachutes, HG, and PG became increasingly dirigible by human jumpers and pilots.




On Saturday, March 14, 2015 7:29 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17198 From: dave santos Date: 3/14/2015
Subject: Re: Modulating Bridle Geometry without a Control Pod
Wow, never saw that patent before: Wubbo Lives! :)

Wubbo's concept is for a wind-amplified control input, and an interesting hybrid variant is suggested by Rogallo's "boltropes" winding on spools is to actuate soft wing control by a reversible-pitch turbine whose axis is double-wound with the toggle lines. This would greatly increase actuation amplitude and power. Alternatively, the aeroturbomotor could be at the wing, rather than the control pod location.

CC+ Open-AWE IP-Pool




On Saturday, March 14, 2015 8:27 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17199 From: dave santos Date: 3/15/2015
Subject: Makani Confidential- PR update
Browsing the want ads for Makani "careers" suggests there will not be an exciting M600 flight trial this year. Only ten days ago they posted a slot for composites shop manager, which is a critical position. This is either the painful replacement of a previous shop lead, or a very tardy fab start on a big complex project.

Makani social media has lapsed for some months now, but old-school behind-the-curtain marketing is on the job, with many cosmetic upgrades to the promo web-content (as if it wasn't too-slick all along). Except for honorific mention of Corwin, Saul, and Don, gone is any trace of specific humans (where once we had "yearbook" pages of real people). Mysteriously growing scores of smiling techie-hipsters in Makani's g+ photo-albums are nameless. Surely someone will break NDA before they grow old and die (?)

Below is reworked PR on the website, complete with mythological factual errors; for example, its known by Makani's own sources (Damon) that logged AWES flight hours are far lower than suggested. Note that ARPA-E did not even exist in 2006. How banal it all is, and the end seems near. The ever-cooler website even caught bugs now (empty menu items). We can hardly hope for more from the mythical jumbo E-VTOL composite autonomous aerobatic AWES-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17200 From: Rod Read Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Large kite out of control kills
http://thanhniennews.com/society/fiveyearold-accidentally-lifted-into-the-sky-by-massive-kite-dies-from-20meter-fall-39844.html
Sorry I don't think that's a link... Copy and paste the url to your browser to read the report please

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17201 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Tethers are very dangerous. Remember instructions in Tempeholf Berlin2013: nobody under the whole tether during demonstration.

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17202 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17203 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

One of Steve's products of 1982:

Rainbow Stunt Kite, Seven-stack | Drachen Foundation

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17204 From: Rod Read Date: 3/16/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?
That the upwind zone of a kite is not completely safe.
Example yesterday: Snow Kiting in Haugastol Norway one of the steering bridle lines on my 12m kite snapped after it clipped a rock.
The result was a lashback and a pile of rope around my feet... And that's with the steering lines which are only under light pressure.
A highly tense rigging line can lash a long way.
I guess a bit like the hazard zone area defined around a jet intake... there are danger zones to be indicated around anchor points too.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17205 From: edoishi Date: 3/17/2015
Subject: kPower at JJ Pickle Research Campus
I am pleased to announce that kPower has been given permission for extensive kite flying and AWE test sessions at the University of Texas's JJ Pickle Research Campus in North Austin. Although not quite as big and open as the previous few year's kite farm in Maxwell, JJ Pickle offers a couple of distinct advantages.  The first and most important is the association with, and proximity to, Professor Jayant Sirohi's Rotor Lab, which is located a short walk from the flying field.  In fact, it was Jayant who secured access for kPower. The second advantage is that we will be ideally located in town making it easier for participants to access the sessions.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17206 From: dave santos Date: 3/17/2015
Subject: Re: kPower at JJ Pickle Research Campus
Nice score Ed! 

Pickle Research Campus happens to have the best kite field in Austin, right at the famed Aeroelasticity Lab (founded by my mentor at Utexas AE, Prof. Emeritus Stearman, and taken on by Dr. Sirohi, who is moving into AWES studies). Where else is there a great new kite field and upgraded wind tunnel at one site?

kFarm remains an open option to any AWE player who wants leased access to open land outside of Austin, with kPower's anchor field in already place. By coincidence, Monday kPower also got a specific field recommendation at an FAA approved UAS Test Range in Oregon (Warm Springs), for testing to 2000ft (update soon).
 



On Tuesday, March 17, 2015 11:50 AM, "edoishi edoishi@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
I am pleased to announce that kPower has been given permission for extensive kite flying and AWE test sessions at the University of Texas's JJ Pickle Research Campus in North Austin. Although not quite as big and open as the previous few year's kite farm in Maxwell, JJ Pickle offers a couple of distinct advantages.  The first and most important is the association with, and proximity to, Professor Jayant Sirohi's Rotor Lab, which is located a short walk from the flying field.  In fact, it was Jayant who secured access for kPower. The second advantage is that we will be ideally located in town making it easier for participants to access the sessions.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17207 From: edoishi Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Makani to launch new wing next month
Astro Teller speaking at SXSW in Austin claims they failed to crash Makani's Wing 7 despite rigorous attempts in high turbulent winds. Now they are ready to launch their new wing next month:


Furthermore, he claims Google X will move away from a secretive position and open up more, in general:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17208 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Makani to launch new wing next month
Astro Teller may not even be aware that Wing7 was leaked by lead engineer Damon to not have flown much (<100hr) in separate flight modes, and only seems to have made ONE short all-modes flight prior to the sale of Makani to GoogleX. This is hardly a "rigorous effort" to find limits.

Ed, I hope you were able to corner Astro, having him in your grasp at SXSW (with kPower as an event volunteer source), but you actually have to chase these characters. I recall chasing SaulG all over the Makani airbase in 2007, before finally cornering him with my hard questions (AWE movie's thrilling chase scene).



On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 6:23 AM, "edoishi edoishi@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Astro Teller speaking at SXSW in Austin claims they failed to crash Makani's Wing 7 despite rigorous attempts in high turbulent winds. Now they are ready to launch their new wing next month:


Furthermore, he claims Google X will move away from a secretive position and open up more, in general:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17209 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Updates on Omnidea

Hello, 

We have updated our website:

http://omnidea.net/site/index. php/research/wind-energy

 

Hope to see you  at AWEC2015,

 

Best Regards,

 

Pedro Silva

Aerospace Technology and Energy Systems

Mechanical Division

 

Address: Faculdade de Ciências e Tecnologia

                 Edificio VIII - Lab. Tecnologia 2.1

           2829-516 Caparica

                 PORTUGAL

 Phone:    (+351) 211 913 169

 Mobile:   (+351) 91 887 14 14  

 E-mail:     pedro.silva@omnidea.net

 Website:  www.omnidea.net

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17210 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17211 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Helium effect rather.

 

About data: (helium!) balloon is 2,5 X 16 m ; wind speed is 8 m/s; 1117 N with rpm 0 : it looks correct but... 

3776 N with rpm 60 looks wrong, rpm 60 being wind speed. Such a speed is possible with drag rotors like Savonius or Magenn.  It's as if their thrust (lift and drag) using Magnus effect was more than 3 times their thrust by stopping... Balloon area is 40 m²: such an area with a great drag coefficient could reach until 1800 N ; reaching the double or more by Magnus effect when tip speed = wind speed is quite impossible. In a place of the video we see the balloon rising while it turns hardly.

 

So: energy expense by recovering phase, another energy expense by rotating, and another expense as helium.

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17212 From: benhaiemp Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea

Reel-out phase: said 3776 N (but probably less than half) becomes 4/9 x 3776 due to 1/3 loss of relative wind : 1678 N.

Reel-in phase: 1117 N becomes far more due to increase of relative wind and also due to lift by helium.

So the energy balance seems widely negative.


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17213 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea
We should all be amazed at Pedro Silva's zeal with his maverick AWES. Never mind the serious doubts, Omnidea is still in the pack of contenders by having a working prototype. There is no need to rehash the objections, which are well represented already. Could there be hidden factors in their favor? 

For starters, its known kite drag is an effective mode, IF it can be produced in bulk cheaper than the energy unit cost of lift-based AWES (lower LCOE). Thus a cheap large-scale drogue canopy may have far more potential than a capital intensive solid equivalent stuck on the ground. Omnidea's prototypes also at least do fly persistently without complex flight automation.

Without endorsement of the Magnus Effect over other principles, consider a large enough inflated cylinder that it can solar balloon, while also acting across a strong vertical surface wind gradient, so that return-side drag is minimized, compared to the useful drag of the upper downwinding side. There would be a venturi jamming effect of a large cylinder in ground effect, with accelerated flow over it (although Pedro is flying a proportionally smaller cylinder proportionally higher). Perhaps weak inflation could support strong surface waves on the upper fabric, with entrained line vortexes boosting otherwise poor skin friction.

We have met, and Pedro is great guy, so I hope he can continue to surprise us all. The winch looks good, and might still serve for a different wing, if the Magnus effect once again disappoints the world. At least formally reported testing will decide here, while Magenn never did reveal its data.



On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:30 PM, "pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Reel-out phase: said 3776 N (but probably less than half) becomes 4/9 x 3776 due to 1/3 loss of relative wind : 1678 N.
Reel-in phase: 1117 N becomes far more due to increase of relative wind and also due to lift by helium.
So the energy balance seems widely negative.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17214 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: 2015 World Record Encampment (WRE) News
Early notice that the Ozone paragliding team is coming to Zapata Texas for the WRE in June. Germy Award winner and SS paraglider developer, Luc d'Armant will be with the team, and new XC records are likely. kPower will be demoing looping foils and providing chase support as the gliders pass over Austin headed to North Texas.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17215 From: dougselsam Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: More Hang Gliding: Crestline
Hi Guys!
I searched on Vimeo for hang gliding Crestline (on the way up to Big Bear) and came up with some cool videos.  Links to 2 of them below.  The launch site is about 8 miles from my house, as the crow flies, but takes 25 minutes or so to drive up there, since the roads are curvy.  Nice to get up there into the forest.  So far we just watch, and sometimes help the fliers move their kites to the launch pad, but hey, ya never know...

https://vimeo.com/6776597

https://vimeo.com/38539054

Meanwhile, it is warm and sunny here in Oak Hills, but I can see a lot of snow on the backside of Mt Baldy from here at my place.  They need to build some dams up there (lakes for snowmaking, like Big Bear) and make it a world-class ski resort.  We can see snow up there til August from this side.  It's 10,000 feet, way higher than Mt. High or Snow Summit.  I can see a couple awesome-looking runs from here that I would like to try.
:)
Doogles McSchnoogles
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17216 From: dougselsam Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: Re: Updates on Omnidea
I'd love to be an Oscar Meyer Weiner... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17217 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2015
Subject: Re: 2015 World Record Encampment (WRE) News
Link below to a fine meteorological and glider-sport backstory of how the WRE was invented at the same place on Earth the modern delta kite itself was invented, South Texas*. It seems this Spring will first establish AWE at this geographic singularity of flight, in tandem with WRE; with a primed AWEfest as a predominantly Mexican-French party, and Luc d'Armant as guest of honor. In effect the WRE and Texas AWE Encampment will integrate. It does get any better than that, world records or not :)


---------------
* Where I did a lot of growing up with lots of family. Edmund Villarreal is also from there; no fluke. The thorny border region into Mexico is also the most concentrated bird migration corridor on Earth, given the same exceptional conditions. In character, the first military airplanes deployed on this border, and fossils of largest flying creature ever, Quetzalcoatlus, are found in the region.




On Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:48 AM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17218 From: dave santos Date: 3/20/2015
Subject: AWE highlights en-route to Texas AWE Encampment
Having left Ilwaco WA on Sunday, I met Dan Tracy at the Museum of Flight in Seattle, discussed AWES design, and scouted the museum for AWEC 2016. I took delivery for kPower on a historic Sky 40 AWES, and the "Kite Control Bar" reel that Dan developed.

On Monday, I dabbled at the Columbia Gorge, where kite surfing was born. Conditions were uncharacteristically calm, so I hung out with kite pros and introduced AWE, with show-and-tell of hardware. I drove on to the Warm Springs UAS Test Range and met with the Tribal Reservation Representative, and we selected a kite testing location on a vast windswept plain next to a dramatic canyon (for approval by the FAA Range Manager).

Wednesday found me in Salt Lake City where I met with Cloudstreet Winches and Cloud 9 Paragliding, the top players in US glider payout winches and HG and PG training repectively, also presented AWES to the pros (where I got the inside scoop about the Ozone paraglider team heading to the WRE in Zapata, TX).

Later that day I drove across Southern Wyoming, scouting the top-rated wind location in the US; a huge windswept gap in the Rocky Mountains, with hundreds of turbines, and thousands more planned. This would be an ideal AWES location, since large trunk lines are being run all the way to the renewable-hungry California grid.

Yesterday, I hit Boulder, but friends at NTWC were slow to react to the impromptu kPower demo opp (anyway flying wind was shadowed by the Front Range), but they insist they want to support AWE R&D, and the AWES flying invitation remains open. Instead I met local kitegods, George and Melanie Peters, leading aero-art kitemakers. George detailed many missing links, like how he came to create large kite arches; and Melanie, who teaches at UCBoulder, provided an educational perspective to emerging kite tech (teaching AWE to youth will become a top priority soon). The Museum of Flight called back, and is very eager to host AWEC 2016.

Tomorrow I meet with Coy at the American Wind Power Museum, to demo, show-and-tell, and do some volunteer hours on the hundred-plus wind turbines of almost every type (I especially intend to adopt the wooden Dutch poldermill, without needing to violate the Dutch certification requirement, like 2011 :) Dan's Sky 40 will probably end up here, when we are done flying it at the Texas AWE Encampment (incl AWEfest and WRE).

Then finally onto Austin, the base for the TX Encampment, sorry to have just missed the SXSW chance to corner AstroT and EricS over Google's badly-skewed AWE R&D, but ready to fly intensively at the new AWE test field at UTexas's Pickle Research Campus.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17219 From: dave santos Date: 3/20/2015
Subject: Google's Kite Energy Search Results in a broader context
Supporting Documentation linked below for the complaint in AWE R&D, that Google search results unfairly favored its equity investment, Makani Power, as consistent with a general pattern across many sectors.

The sad thing is that Wayne German always insisted on the dignity of the kite; that "Kite Energy" should be the most true and correct term; even as many go-go venture players explicitly avoided the "K word", at times insisting their AWES was not a kite at all. But people love kites, and Makani gradually embraced the term. Hu Vu's visionary original Kite Energy website, which took a broad view and long had been at the top of search results, was pushed aside (like so much legacy Web content). Makani became the top - kite energy - search result for what should have been a neutrally informative source (like Wikipedia).

US and EU governments may have settled in the face of Google's undue power over information, but the civil realm remains open. Likely these cases hinge on key internal whistle-blowers coming forward and Google with private settlements the norm. In the case of AWE, competent small developers may constitute a class who bring action as conditions warrant. A critical test will be if the M600 is a triumph or fail, and if worthy competing AWES paradigms can prove harm (unfair trade) for years of wrongful Google-Makini hype. Damon is Cc:ed as a default GoogleX contact, to give superiors due notice of the long-standing standing complaints about Makani PR excesses (and he has even apologized (to DaveL, on this forum) for hype in the past).

Lets see if Google's - kite energy - search results are properly justified or reformed.This news advances the case for complaint-


  Leaked 2012 Report Says FTC Staff Wished to Sue Google Over Result Skews
 


==========

Current Google search on - kite energy -  :

----------
    *
About 12,000,000 results  (0.34 seconds) 
Search Results
* Makani – Google 
www.google.com/makani/    *
    *
GoogleEnergy Kites. Makani is working to accelerate the shift to clean, renewable energy by developing energy kites, a new type of wind turbine that uses lightweight  ...
‎The challenge - ‎The solution - ‎The technology - ‎Careers
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17220 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: DuckDuckGo Search Results for - kite energy - (JoeF's site tops ran
A search on - Kite Energy - in DuckDuckGo returns Joe Faust's epic AWE site that covers the whole field brilliantly and fairly. 

Congratulations Joe!

Wikipedia: "DuckDuckGo emphasizes getting information from the best sources rather than the most sources, generating its search results from key crowdsourced sites such as Wikipedia and from partnerships with other search engines like Yandex, Yahoo!, Bing, and Yummly.[5][6]"

Index to EnergyKiteSystems

Energy Kite Systems: Join tech community: AWES AirborneWindEnergy; A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z Let us know you and your interests. News, notes, documents, files: Editor@UpperWindpower.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17221 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind generator

Non-Turbine Electric Wind Generator -...

www.academicpub.org/DownLoadPaper.aspx?paperid=14397
Alexander A. Bolonkin ... method does not require, as does other wind energy devices, strong support columns, wind .... Part of the higher costs for new coal plants is due to high financial lending costs because of “the ..... delineated in this paper can move the wind energy industry from stagnation to revolutionary potential.

THE TEXT LINK DOWNLOADS A PDF OF THE PAPER. There are some upper-air explorations in the paper.
Electrical and Power Engineering Frontier Sep. 2013, Vol. 2 Iss. 3, PP. 64-71

      This topic thread could discuss the paper and the methods described.

"Electron Wind Electric Generator (EABG)."   
In paper, one caption: Fig. 4:  "

Fig. 4 Airborne (flight) high altitude Electron wind generator. a - wing support; b – wind parachute support Notations: 13 is wing; 14 is parachute; 15 is parachute having lift force.

"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17222 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2015
Subject: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy
Following up recent discussion at Airworks Studio in Boulder with Melanie Walker and George Peters; that yet another aviation niche related to AWE and  Aerotecture, is modern art whose zeitgeist is flight itself, like work by Panamarenko and Saraceno. George and Melanie knew inflatables master, Maurice Agis, who was forced into the aesthetic-flight school when his megascale inflated environment, Dreamspace V, inadvertently took flight, with nightmarish results (which Rod had noted to us).

Like the Edeiken tragedy in kiting, the event taught traumatic lessons to the close communities involved. Agis, at the height of his renown and creative power, forever renounced large-scale inflated work. Proper AWE and Aerotecture is for (sky native) experts to perfect, Artistic and liberational fullfillment, in the spirit Wubbo called call us to, must be upon founded on safety culture that we create-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17223 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener
The WECS principle proposed is electromigration, and it will be interesting to test, and see if it is effective. In this case, one could call it reverse electromigration, since its the electrons ride on the wind ions, rather than knocking ions along. Although closely related, AlexB's concept differs from the Dutch concept for an electromigration WECS. In particular, he proposes an airborne version that does not require water.

Proof of concept as a WECS might be as simple as a fine metallic screen set crosswind, with a conductor line running upwind. Electrons will start to flow in a loop. An LED connected inline should light up as enough wind or collecting area is provided. It could be a light cheap WECS basis, and even develop self-lift, as AlexB notes. The mesh would likely be an electroplated polymer, in developed form. The practical magnitudes of dispersion factors are unknown to us, but include windborne electrons that somehow bypass the mesh and optical phonons. The effects of humidity and rain conditions are open question as well-





On Saturday, March 21, 2015 1:32 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  

Non-Turbine Electric Wind Generator -...

www.academicpub.org/DownLoadPaper.aspx?paperid=14397
Alexander A. Bolonkin ... method does not require, as does other wind energy devices, strong support columns, wind .... Part of the higher costs for new coal plants is due to high financial lending costs because of “the ..... delineated in this paper can move the wind energy industry from stagnation to revolutionary potential.

THE TEXT LINK DOWNLOADS A PDF OF THE PAPER. There are some upper-air explorations in the paper.
Electrical and Power Engineering Frontier Sep. 2013, Vol. 2 Iss. 3, PP. 64-71

      This topic thread could discuss the paper and the methods described.

"Electron Wind Electric Generator (EABG)."   
In paper, one caption: Fig. 4:  "
Fig. 4 Airborne (flight) high altitude Electron wind generator. a - wing support; b – wind parachute support Notations: 13 is wing; 14 is parachute; 15 is parachute having lift force.
"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17224 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener
We've used this idea as an April Fools posting on wind energy groups for years.  While this general notion represents a compelling idea, assuming there is really a way to get it to work, this paper seems like so many others in the following ways:
1) A lot of this paper is just the typical clap-trap of describing the existing wind industry, the resource, etc., then claiming that this new method is somehow cheaper, which it seems are obligatory for any discussion of any new technology.  It's almost as though they just feel an obligation to use up a lot of space, rather than boil down what they are trying to say in a few sentences.  It seems as though they think that if they can mention enough known facts at first, then that will rationalize the veracity of the only main idea that matters, which is whether they are revealing an economically-compelling wind energy method;
2) A look at the diagrams indicate a lack of understanding of wind energy since they show an expanding wake, whereas real wind turbines are known to have a contracting wake that is fat before the turbine and funnels down as it passes through the turbine and past the turbine, since the volumetric flowrate passing through a given area is reduced by any apparatus that slows the wind;
3) It seems to me that, rather than just trotting out all these supposed facts, advantages, etc., they might better build one at a small scale and then show us the evidence that it produces X amount of electricity at Y windspeed, at Z cost.  Or even just X power at Y windspeed.  There doesn't seem to be a good reason not to just build one of these, rather than talking about it, assuming the basic idea is robust.  It almost seems that a small working model could be built for less effort than writing this paper.  To me, that is the giant canary in the room (brawk!):  As long as we don't have to build and run one of these it will remain "a great idea", in the land of "the all-talk format".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17225 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener
Doug,

The "expanding wake" of ions is due both to mechanical mixing and repelling charges. AlexB in off-Forum correspondence is only proposing a benchtop prototype for now. I'll of course do my own, under the testing ethos. The novel method will be tested with an open mind, rather than treated only as an April Fool's joke,

daveS



On Sunday, March 22, 2015 8:17 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
We've used this idea as an April Fools posting on wind energy groups for years.  While this general notion represents a compelling idea, assuming there is really a way to get it to work, this paper seems like so many others in the following ways:
1) A lot of this paper is just the typical clap-trap of describing the existing wind industry, the resource, etc., then claiming that this new method is somehow cheaper, which it seems are obligatory for any discussion of any new technology.  It's almost as though they just feel an obligation to use up a lot of space, rather than boil down what they are trying to say in a few sentences.  It seems as though they think that if they can mention enough known facts at first, then that will rationalize the veracity of the only main idea that matters, which is whether they are revealing an economically-compelling wind energy method;
2) A look at the diagrams indicate a lack of understanding of wind energy since they show an expanding wake, whereas real wind turbines are known to have a contracting wake that is fat before the turbine and funnels down as it passes through the turbine and past the turbine, since the volumetric flowrate passing through a given area is reduced by any apparatus that slows the wind;
3) It seems to me that, rather than just trotting out all these supposed facts, advantages, etc., they might better build one at a small scale and then show us the evidence that it produces X amount of electricity at Y windspeed, at Z cost.  Or even just X power at Y windspeed.  There doesn't seem to be a good reason not to just build one of these, rather than talking about it, assuming the basic idea is robust.  It almost seems that a small working model could be built for less effort than writing this paper.  To me, that is the giant canary in the room (brawk!):  As long as we don't have to build and run one of these it will remain "a great idea", in the land of "the all-talk format".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17226 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: (Woops, I had the wake backwards) Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electr
Sorry guys, I just injected a serious bit of misinformation a moment ago, saying a wind turbine wake contracts, rather than expands.  Sorry about that error.  Of course the opposite is true.  I just realized that I have been spending too much time in the aviation world, where the propeller wake contracts, and I had mentally transposed an airplane propeller with a wind turbine rotor.  Please excuse the temporary lapse, and injection of a falsehood masquerading as a fact in my previous post.  We get enough of that on this list.  I guess maybe I should go back to not posting, lest I fall into the description of "better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt".  Nothing worse than a "know-it-all" using lots of big words to express ideas opposite to reality on a list such as this, eh?  OK I will go back to shutting up.  Meanwhile, let's see I have some metal mesh around here somewhere, and some wire, and it IS going to be windy today...  I'll need some electricity to free up some electrons - or would they be called beta particles?  (Rogue planets?)  Where can I get the electricity?  Wait, I'll need to build two - one to power the other. OK I'm on a roll now... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17227 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Bolonkin on non-turbine electric generation "electron wind gener
Thanks DaveS.  As I just explained, the expanding wake is generic to wind energy, and I had stated an error.  To be sure, this is an old idea, generally speaking. Either nobody has given it a decent try, or it may just be an unworkable idea.  But no doubt, you will straighten it all out for us, as you have with so many other technologies, so far. :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17228 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Agis may have entered inadvertent aerotecture earlier. Here is a quote from a page:

"In July 1986, another one of the defendant's creations, Colourspace, broke free from its moorings and took off during strong winds at a display in Germany, the court was told."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17229 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy
Eerie similarities with earlier German accident (From The Northern Echo)

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17230 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Some text of the first incident:

 "Mr Agis, who was not present on the day of the German incident, said the gale force storm had come as a surprise to everyone."


Cascading unleashing ...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17231 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy

Timeline:

Agis CV with photos

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17232 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy
To refine the theory as to why Agis's inflated structures were so prone to fly, It seems likely the rounded base geometry allowed wind to "ram" underneath. Only a small positive ram-air pressure underneath such a large area is apparently enough to overcome otherwise adequate anchor stakes (essentially wing-in-ground-effect). There would also be Bernoulli lift to help get flight started, but once such an inflatable peels up at high AoA, Newtonian lift dominates, with a large frontal surface to work on. Solar ballooning lift would only have been a contributing factor (esp. in UK sun) at this scale of such flattened shapes, and the structures would likely have flown farther and/or higher, had they really achieved neutral buoyancy.

That Agis failed to learn from his 1986 disaster helps justify his arrest the second time around, as a confirmed menace to public safety. 

Saraceno seems to take similar excessive risks, with Agis's notorious case as fair forewarning, but he also is known to fake media perceptions, and successfully enforce project secrecy (cowing RolandS, no less); so its hard for outside observers to judge if he is really a menace, if only to himself. Certainly his Solar Bell project was ultimately far tamer than the original human-flight prospectus he fooled TUDelft into convincingly promoting.


---------------
Saraceno's supposed performance art; how real the hazards?

Image result for tomas saraceno tent flying

Image result for tomas saraceno




On Sunday, March 22, 2015 6:19 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Timeline:
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17233 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: kite wake and new inspirations
How will the wake behind a rotary kite or other rotary AWES differ from standard turbine wake?
Will a stack of ring kites be efficient?

I plan to experiment on that soon...
My extremely limited budget won't give any definitive empirical data... but there should at least be another proof of concept in the bag in the coming months.

There's some suggestion here that secondary ring rotors are beneficial.

If you were to fly 1 kite in turbulent wake... which one will work best (stay up and steady)?

Is it a pilot lifter with single line tracking advantage?
Is it a rigid Makani robokite?
Or the flimsiest looking one?... the Muller skybow arch, which can run cross wind as it's own arch or down wind as a lifter tether... thus enabling it to form swivel noded cathedral configurations.

I have a couple of concepts developing which take some elements of all of these types, and maybe mixes in some parts from a monovelo (also very good as a Daisy PTO), a festival tent  , the paraglider control horn (+ node swivels)  and Dave S looping parafoil...

Interesting: the two concepts can be fit together many ways. 1 is mostly a  lift, 1 as gen.

Lift concept ... an aggregate bubble form net blends some of the best parts of Frei Ottos developable surface bubble studys and Mothra's efficient structures with sheet forming methods... (inspired by  tyre tracks left on my loft floor after my 40th birthday party...) and many thanks to the book Algorithms Aided Design for helping me spot this...

Gen with many modes... After stripping most of the tent surface just leaving the webbing, The top web ring of a festival tent can work as control node for many generation modes.
mode 1 as feed horn and PTO point for Daisy chain stacking on a lifter line.
mode 2 remove the mast, control from ground centre, sway lifted ring, PTO at multiple ground stay pulley points.

Many dafter modes and ideas were discussed and inspired through THAT night!
Some of the least sensible suggested by pals who saw me ride an electric unicycle.
..
However given a rigidised tent mesh structure and a gust following top lift... pulling randomised movements along the floor to a uniwheel ... nawwh

busy playing as ever

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

All CC4.0 NC BY SA + OPEN AWES
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17234 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: Airborne Dreamspace V Tragedy
"the gale force storm had come as a surprise to everyone."  That encapsulates the history of zeppelins and most attempts at wind energy.  The wind itself is always "a surprise", as it destroys the apparatus and often kills everyone.  Either they didn't realize there would be a strong wind, or they didn't expect it to change direction.  Darn wind...   http://www.airships.net/us-navy-rigid-airships/uss-akron-macon
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17235 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: kite wake and new inspirations
first quick sketch of the tent PTO and control idea...
It's a bit like ortho kite bunch and the looping foil mixed.
A really rough sketch... the ground ring wouldn't exist.
Power taken between the lifted ring and the ground points.
http://youtu.be/jpxoFg3l3iE

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17236 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2015
Subject: Re: kite wake and new inspirations

The obvious improvements are to have the kite looping so that it pulls the sides out. And to shrink the rings above to a single clamp and  control line horn feed device.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17237 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Tent anchoring PTO
An improved preview of the tent anchoring PTO scheme concept.

http://youtu.be/tkSDLZVlwis


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17238 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO

Variant and improvement of DaveS' tri-tether?

 

PierreB

 

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17239 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Clip and carbon3d

Any doubters left on the future being 3d printed?
We better get designing for clip....
http://carbon3d.com/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17240 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO
AHH yes... I think that's what it is.
Certainly less materially intensive than using rails.
However at size ... Will rails be a tidier solution?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17241 From: Rod Read Date: 3/24/2015
Subject: Re: Tent anchoring PTO

If these feet arrayed in hexagonal cells can be driven by iso mesh kites then land use becomes much more intensive.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 17242 From: dave santos Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Clip and carbon3d
Note the nuanced doubt  about current 3D printing tech, as already expertly expressed on the forum, is in fact fully shared by the Carbon3D founder-

“Current 3D printing technology has failed to deliver on its promise to revolutionize manufacturing,” said Dr. Joseph DeSimone, CEO and Co-Founder, Carbon3D-

That much is clear; but its sadly consistent with its stealth-venture culture that there is not enough hard public data on Carbon3d's tech available for a properly informed judgement. The weak commercial claim is that Carbon3D tech is equivalent to injection molding in structural quality, which is far below high performance super-fibers with polymer lengths in the multi-hundred thousand range (like ordinary UHMWPE), while Carbon3D's process is still far slower than standard cheap injection molding for mass-production. Note once again the presence of Silver Lake Kraftwerk investment hype here, which we have before experienced in AWE, with Makani's DOE-scandal retread, Cathy Zoi; with the expert doubters still left in wise doubt.

The specific engineering doubt here is whether Christian's AWES success must vitally depend on the same "current 3D printing" that "has failed to deliver". We just have to wait and see if the expert doubters, like the Carbon3D founder, prove correct in such doubting.



On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 6:00 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com  
Any doubters left on the future being 3d printed?
We better get designing for clip....
http://carbon3d.com/