Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES16842to16891 Page 231 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16842 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Re as predictor of (kite) aircraft morphology

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16843 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Too much power with Poor alignment = Breakage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16844 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16845 From: dougselsam Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16846 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16847 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Aeolian Music at AWEfest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16848 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: M600 Triple Redundant Control

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16849 From: Rod Read Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16850 From: Rod Read Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16851 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16852 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16853 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16854 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2015
Subject: Spinnaker Flying Kite Case

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16855 From: Muzhichkov Date: 2/10/2015
Subject: Alternative to Laddermill

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16856 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Alternative to Laddermill

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16857 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16858 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16859 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16860 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16861 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Characterizing Entropy of AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16862 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16863 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: AWEfest 2015 Call-for-Participation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16864 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Highly-Polarized Wind-Rose Kite-Arch Advantage

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16865 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Moderator reports

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16866 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Abstract Kite Cases (Clues or mere curiosities?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16867 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16868 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16869 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16870 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16871 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Kite Power wins Design Synthesis Exercise Competition

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16872 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: TUDelft DUWIND Gathering

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16873 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: GoogleX claiming Makani will "commercially launch" Makani AWES "by 2

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16874 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: GoogleX claiming Makani will "commercially launch" Makani AWES "

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16875 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: SkySails announces 10MW AWES Unit Goal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16876 From: dougselsam Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16877 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Ampyx and Leuven seeking an "AWESCO PhD fellow" (and Ampyx's AWEC le

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16878 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16879 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16880 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16881 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16882 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16883 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16884 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16885 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: For Dave Lang

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16886 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16887 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16888 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Defining Topological Order for AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16889 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16890 From: dougselsam Date: 2/14/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16891 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16842 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Re as predictor of (kite) aircraft morphology
Doug,

My actual argument is that aeronautical experts can see Bell's ideas still alive (in many places a novice cannot), and with a future still (soft-cellular kite-matter).

For example, where you only see "mere guy wires", experts see a historical progression where these wires became airfoil sectioned, with attendent gains in performance. The fact that these wires represent triangulated wing structure is simply beyond you ability to admit.

Joe is not just "egging on" folks, but is arguably the greatest living mentor in AWE, encouraging the honest efforts of all others. Its too bad you still cannot see what he is getting at with the joined-wing cases (higher Re triangular wing structure). All this fuss has been to help you see what others can, even if you never return nor value mentor-culture empathy. Instead you argue for Joe to withhold knowledge that does not fit your emotional bias,

daveS






On Monday, February 9, 2015 7:22 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16843 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Too much power with Poor alignment = Breakage
Correction: Gordon's Perdiction is the original, cited by both Bob and me. My data contribution is scour the engineering universe for similarity cases of long drive-shafts, and not find any that are long enough and not massive (like dam spillway gate actuation).

I have in fact predicted on the Forum that torque drive will work at the small (~5m) scale, but agree with Gordon's prediction for larger AWES scales. Please let us know if you get any sense of Gordon's prediction holding at 600m scale. It was my hope we could provide Doug and the world some actual scaling data, not just heuristic logic.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16844 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel
I was outvoted within kPower to invest all our capital and go for it in 2014. So its happening on a slower time frame, with a cash reserve in the bank.

Please respect topics. Contact me off-line when its a question of you having missed Forum news. Never forget, nothing is more overdue than your own grand claims, by several years, while so many other efforts are delayed far less. No one would bother reminding you, if you did not obsess on the lesser delays of others. Keep in mind that AWEfest is part of Wubbo's legacy, so we will make sure it happens. Your unique legacy will be to not believe it was possible.


On Monday, February 9, 2015 9:05 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16845 From: dougselsam Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel
Here's a cut-paste: one of your posts in 2013, "announcing" a concert "series", "major music stars", etc.:
"We expect a sort of climax phase in a couple of weeks as a dozen or new AWES machines leave the fab shops and begin demonstrations at Taylor-Taylor's 50 acre hay-kite hybrid kitefarm. "Winning" machines will move to Austin's Zilker Park for a flash-mob kite music series. These concerts are "dress" rehearsals for major kite music events in planning for New York City. The NYC Parks&Rec authorities are excited and acting helpful with approvals, and major music stars are already offering to participate in "AWEfest".

Top folks, like Wubbo Ockels and Cristina Archer, are supporting this push to catch the public imagination with Kite Energy in NYC. Wubbo spontaneously offers the TUDelft AWES as a resource, and we hope pending invitees like WindLift, Enerkite, and all others with working low-risk mobile systems participate in these events, expenses paid. Patrice Mallard, Ed Sapir, and Util llc deserve special praise for this wave of new progress. Chase Honaker's KickStarted AWE Documentary is another powerful driver.

We have found a new path forward for the fractured AWE R&D community, promising an astounding inventive-momentum. This latest model for success is not based on stealth-venture-capitalism, or winner-take-all competition in military-industrial fly-off. The historic new technical progress will be by a public-celebration format, with all the vitality of unlimited crowd-sourced love and intelligence.

Please come help the "Austin KiteKamp" meet its technical milestones in coming weeks. Contact Ed Sapir to join the fun-  edoishi@..."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16846 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel
Doug,

You are badly off-topic still, so only a terse reply- In the deepest sense, AWESfest already began 2013, and will last for ages, if our intent and techne is true. Its almost Spring in Austin, and we will rock harder than ever. After all, for those who made it happen, Woodstock began well before the event date, as a planning process.

*Please* start a new topic to rag on AWEfest. Poor Musicaerial has no fault here for you to turn it into one of your habitual complaint threads.

daveS


On Monday, February 9, 2015 10:42 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16847 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Aeolian Music at AWEfest
Somehow we missed until now the natural connection between ancient aeolian harp music and Rock-the-Kite Theory. Somebody at DSM alertly noted that aeolian-kites like Musicaeial's are the worlds largest musical instruments. They sound like psychedelic phase-shifted guitars.

A cool AWEfest-inspired concept* is an electric guitar whose strings run up to the sky. Hack a digital stringless guitar to have the kite strings anchored off the head-stock, with aeolian pick-ups. Add mixers to combine human and wind sources. In general, the human riffs on the wind signal, which can be modulated by flying the kite actively.The Guitar itself could be the kite control bar, using the strap-pin. CC+ Open-AWE IP Pool.


* AWEfest spawns invention, therefore it exists. Wubbo lives there :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16848 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: M600 Triple Redundant Control
Similar to the most complex safety-critical aerospace platforms, Makani is (here on-the-record) dependent on redundant flight computers. The idea is any single processor failure gets "out-voted" by the remaining two. The challenges include creating a large amount of clean-room-standard code, dealing with sensor data uncertainty (more triple-redundance anyone?), trading added latency against real-time demand, hidden failure modes, etc.. GoogleX shares few details, but count on it; there is a very stressed-out group of young hired engineers struggling in secret to make High-Complexity AWE work, on the bleeding edge of feasibility.

From Makani's last G+ post, Nov 14, 2014-

"In addition to making the software smarter, we’ve put two extra flight computers on board our 600 kilowatt energy kite. Of course, redundant systems help keep the kite operating safely even when something unexpected happens. But also, we’ve designed the software to check which of the computers is the most fit to guide the kite along the flight path that maximizes the amount of energy it can generate. "


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16849 From: Rod Read Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest
I have a bit of video if anyone wants... (doubt it... but hey at least I don't post every video I take)
Where I demonstrate the noise a Peter Lynn SSSL makes when you pluck the string...
It's a bloody beautiful sound.. like a bdoumpadoump sorta heartbeaty

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16850 From: Rod Read Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?
Attachments :
Report on paediatric dangers of kite flying
Really large death tolls reported and
Really quite gruesome if you're squeamish.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16851 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?

Topic deepening will eventually face the incidents in each sector of kiting activity:

  • Kite festivals of various sorts in each nation
  • Individual recreational hobby kiting
  • Parks and Recreation kite activity
  • Kiteboarding
  • Kite boating
  • Kite hang gliding
    • Paragliding
    • Framed or sticky hang gliding
  • AWES (may be branched to scale)
    • Industrial kite-energy systems R&D
    • Sport kite-energy systems
    • Kite-energy farm operations (future)
    • Industrial traction kiting
    • FFAWE inhabited
    • FFAWE uninhabited
    • Launching IFOs by kiting  (Identified Flying Object : tetherless AWES)

  • Commercial manned kiting
  • Sailplane kiting
  • Military
    • Material handling kiting
    • Personnel transport kiting
    • Drone free-flight powered kiting
  • Model aircraft
    • High-start kiting of unmanned gliders
    • Free-flight-C powered kiting
  • ... and more.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16852 From: Christian Harrell Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16853 From: dave santos Date: 2/9/2015
Subject: Re: Aeolian Music at AWEfest
Christian,

Thats a good idea, but the hard part is also knowing the real time orientation of the kite, otherwise the import of the line signals is uncertain. Its like driving with your eyes closed, only knowing where the steering wheel is.

Another use might be to detect line twist. Other signals, like differential wing flapping, would show up on the line, like a tin-can telephone, but the analysis would become more complex than normal-mode line vibe,

daveS


On Monday, February 9, 2015 2:54 PM, "Christian Harrell christianharrell@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16854 From: dave santos Date: 2/10/2015
Subject: Spinnaker Flying Kite Case
Human-lofted "Spinnaker Flying" is normally done close to the sailboat mast, but the picture below shows the iconic sail-human combo is capable of extended tether flight at low angle. As recently noted, its plausible the boat mast can be replaced by suitable pilot-lifter kites, to reach high-altitudes with spinnakers procured cheap on the used-market; to act as a kite payload booster, at higher angles. Also noted before, spinnakers can be cycled ("popped" or doused) from socks, as a COTS method for long pumping cycles. A soft-cellular "wall-of-spinnakers" (spinnakers as kixels) is an interesting AWES idea. As an AWES rule-of-thumb, a soft wing like this needs to be ~10x the area of a High L/D wing, to match power rating [Makani at AWEC 2011]. The common sail may be currently competitive in AWE, if the game is part "sailing in the sky".




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16855 From: Muzhichkov Date: 2/10/2015
Subject: Alternative to Laddermill

Hallo everybody, I'm back again :) 

I had a problem whith my project. (http://youtu.be/SIBz_q1yjkA) A demping of suggy rope (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2FfRkxFG8) didn't give a chanse to get a vibration on the earth. 

Now there is an idea how to avoid this problem with this solution

Airborne with middle trag cyrcle

Here you can have a device on stable position, but get a mechanical energy on the earth.


What is your opinion?


Alexander

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16856 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Alternative to Laddermill

Welcome back, Alexander !


Your driven oscillating airfoil line-based sketch has cousins in vertically-oscillating airfoils rising on rails, cables, poles. Darin Selby early in group presently an oscillating airfoil. Ride up with one AoA and ride down with another AoA. Your passive control looks interesting and hopeful. The 1889 laddermill water arrangement http://www.google.com/patents/US407123

had its analogical expressions in air as well. The Faust hybrid laddermill keep the airfoils in loop with looping continuously driving traverse to wind without much downwind component while arrangement is held by lifter system; drive occurs on both up and down parts of the loop.   


   The choice to go to reverse oscillation instead of loop for laddermill alternatives, as in your sketched concept will enter the competitions as AWES types unfold. PTO is with the non-smooth transitions from up to down to up, etc.   We hope to see embodiments of your device.   Best to you and yours.


JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16857 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel
DaveS I was just accurately quoting you, as you often insist on accurate quotes.  My point was your exuberance and enthusiasm resulted in your announcing future events that never happened, never were about to happen, with nothing in place to even suggest they COULD happen.  The emotion was nice, but there was no technology to back it up, for one thing.  I don't see that there was anyone with the AWE expertise or equipment to provide the requisite AWE power for a concert, nor anyone involved with the expertise to plan and hold a major concert, which is a huge and complicated undertaking unto itself.  I never heard any specification of how much continuous power such a concert might require.  (Lights?  Sound system?  Amps?)  And I did not hear of any consideration of the probability of having enough wind to make that mystery amount of power, on a specific day when such a concert might be scheduled (weather predictions? scheduling ahead?) .  It kind of reminds me of a "spaceship" that me and another 8-year-old used to talk about building, on our way home from school.  We were going to collect scrap-metal on the way home, and melt it into sheet-metal using Mom's cookie-sheets in the oven.  Later, I realized that our intent was to have fun imagining this, but our spaceship and method of producing it were nonsense.  Sound familiar?  I don't think there WAS a series of flashmob airborne wind-powered concerts in Austin, that then led to an even bigger concert in New York, featuring major stars, now was there?  I mean, it sounded nice, another warm-and-fuzzy spotted-mushroom fantasy, but it never came close to happening, now did it?  I felt sorry for anyone reading your description of these purported events, thinking for even a moment that it was true, but those same naive people are the type to quickly forget all you said, and glom on to the next round of nonsense, not taking into account the ever-accumulating track record of truth or non-truth.  Now of course, I suppose you could drag out the timeline forever, and by constantly re-defining this event that should have culminated long ago, to being an endless future event, you can keep playing your typical shell-game and probably drag out some version of this story forever, but I think, realistically, the way you announced this series of concerts was to have taken place by now.  After all, you stated it was to have been based on your hayfarm AWE-fest from 2013, right?.  Sorry but I just have to point out that this is 2015 and we have not had the series of concerts you announced that were supposed to have started as you wrapped up your 2013 AWE-hayfest.   And I would never say an airborne wind energy concert is not possible - heck, maybe we'll have the first one at my house!  Of course it is possible - if you can make enough electricity, you can do anything that requires electricity.  But meanwhile, with you making statements complaining how laborious it is to have to "constantly correct me", I can only post a small selection of your own words, and let people judge the veracity for themselves.  Have fun and keep on dreaming.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16858 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Kite flying: Ancient tradition or death trap?
Wow that sounds like 2 people per hour, just from flying kites, but is it in one town, or in the entire country of a billion people?  Oh wait, sounds like a lot were from having no railings on stairways and roofs.  Maybe a lot of these deaths should be more properly ascribed to building code violations, alcohol abuse, etc.  Maybe the kite-flying was incidental to many of these deaths.  And in the one pic that shows a large electrical burn - wow, going from kite-flying to kite-FRYING!  This article cites a lot of statistics, but few specifics to discern what is really at play.  That seems like an incredible amount of casualties - certainly enough to master AWE, were they so-inclined.  What do they do, stack them like cordwood at the side of the road?  Heck, I was thinking of flying a kite, but now I'm getting scared!  :O................
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16859 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel
Doug,

You got a quote right, which is a rare event*, but off-topic. You are still wrongly using this Musicaerial topic to complain crankily about other matters, even though I opened an AWEfest topic. Its like you never care there are humans we want to know better behind these friendly announcements; you just complain sourly, with no interest in being nice to new folks.

AWEfest is far more real than your far older prediction- "all roads lead to the SuperTurbine". Not just me, but Wubbo and several others have publicly foreseen AWEfest, and your ignorant guess about "nothing in place" is simply wrong (kPower been stockpiling specialized AWES hardware for two years, as well as testing relentlessly. TUDelft even offered its AWES, on a direct-cost basis.).

If you finally cannot make the SuperTurbine happen, at least enjoy watching AWEfest finally blossom, even if you have nothing to contribute. Not every technical delay is as final as the SuperTurbine's scaling barrier (ie. HST delay was overcome, and critics silenced).

Musicaerial is welcome to play at AWEfest, since they have something going on, and lets hope you can too,

daveS

* You never explained your recent made-up quote against parafoils (!) if you really care about truth here.


On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 8:02 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16860 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest
OK then since you remain argumentative let's just deconstruct your original post:
1) "We expect a sort of climax phase in a couple of weeks as a dozen or new AWES machines leave the fab shops and begin demonstrations at Taylor-Taylor's 50 acre hay-kite hybrid kitefarm.
***OK now, did "a dozen or new AWES machines begin demonstrations" in that "couple weeks"?  No?  Didn't think so...

"Winning" machines will move to Austin's Zilker Park for a flash-mob kite music series.
***OK, which machines "won"?  (How did we miss THAT announcement?
Which AWE machines "moved to Austin's Zilker Park"?  None?

These concerts
*** Were there any concerts?  I think not.

are "dress" rehearsals

*** dress rehearsals?  But they never happened.  How could they be "dress rehearsals?

for major kite music events in planning for New York City.
***OK, were there any "major kite music events" in NYC?  I don't think so...

The NYC Parks&Rec authorities are excited
***Really, they are excited?  Or have they just fielded a few false phone calls from you?  What do you expect them to say?  if someone doesn't hang up the phone, you document that as though there is actually a concert being planned by them now - NOT.

and acting helpful with approvals,
*** Approvals?  Got any documentation on that?  Didn't think so...

and major music stars are already offering to participate in "AWEfest".
*** REEEAALLLLLY... Care to share WHICH "major music stars" are "offering"?  What, for free?  Care to share any documentation on THAT?

Top folks, like Wubbo Ockels and Cristina Archer, are supporting this push to catch the public imagination with Kite Energy in NYC.
*** Top Folks - a nebulous description, but what "support" exactly have they offered?  Parking?  Traffic control?  Porta-potties?  Security?  Sound?  Lighting?  Providing the power (Wubbo)?  Guaranteeing the wind will blow (Cristina)?  Or is it just that they didn't have time to argue with your blather?  What else are they going to say but "yes" if asked "Would you support an AWE-powered concert?  Who WOULDN'T say they "support" virtually ANY proposed idea, if asked?  What actual "support" are you talking about, specifically?

Wubbo spontaneously offers the TUDelft AWES as a resource,
***OK so it seems though, that there were no concerts, no Delfts AWES system on American soil at all - so what meaning does your  statement have?  I'd say none.

and we hope pending invitees like WindLift, Enerkite, and all others with working low-risk mobile systems participate in these events, expenses paid.
***expenses paid, eh?  What expenses were paid?  OK so did any of THAT happen?  I don't think so.

Patrice Mallard, Ed Sapir, and Util llc deserve special praise for this wave of new progress.
*** Progress?  What progress?  Praise?  What the heck were you even TALKING about?????

Chase Honaker's KickStarted AWE Documentary is another powerful driver.
*** A "Powerful driver, huh?  Driver of WHAT?  And the result is?  No concerts, right?

We have found a new path forward
***A new path?  But, none of this ever even happened!

for the fractured AWE R&D community, promising an astounding inventive-momentum.
*** "Promising"???  So did any of what you say ever happen?  No, it did not.  So the promise was one more lie.

This latest model for success is not based on stealth-venture-capitalism, or winner-take-all competition in military-industrial fly-off. The historic new technical progress will be
*** Note the term "will be" - OK let's fact check - I don't think it happened at all...

by a public-celebration format, with all the vitality of unlimited crowd-sourced love and intelligence.
*** Intelligence?  You have combined insulting everyone else's efforts with glorifying your own non-effort that is only a collection of falsehoods - too many combined, mutually-interdependent errors in this single sentence for even me to deconstruct

Please come help the "Austin KiteKamp" meet its technical milestones in coming weeks. Contact Ed Sapir to join the fun-  edoishi@..."
*** coming weeks - there is your next opportunity to stretch the truth 100x past the breaking point.  You can forever claim "I never said HOW MANY weeks" - so there, I've done some of your work for you, in the never-ending "fight for ignorance" in the ongoing battle to substitute strings of interdependent falsehoods for truth, and to avoid ever admitting it.

Why do I say this?  Well I believe it is important to stick to facts.  Fictional systems can only create fictional power to power fictional events.  You claim to offer facts all day, even claiming how laborious it is to "have to constantly correct me", but it seems to me that usually the notions you promote are provably false, so I just picked one I could remember, out of thousands of posts, to see if ANYTHING you post has even a scintilla of truth in it.  Fish in a barrel.  So there you are.  You claim to be willing to admit it when you are wrong, which is a real-knee-slapper, but I can take virtually anything you post, and if I had all day, I could show that almost none of it reflects reality.  And your response so far is your typical retreat to technicalities, like saying any discussion of your own words is "off-topic" - nope the broader topic is music from AWE systems, and these posts of mine have been sticking to that music-from-AWE topic.  Just sayin'...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16861 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Characterizing Entropy of AWES
AWES are fundamentally thermodynamic, therefore classical entropy is a major physical parameter, expressing the amount of energy unavailable to do work in terms of order and disorder. More than just an engineering (in)efficiency factor, its an deep explanatory theory, where formal order and disorder (entropy) are physically defined properties. Entropy is the the top-most abstraction of the many small details that together make an AWES less efficient. Normal engineering for efficiency pokes into every system detail, but a bulk thermodynamic view gives the big picture in grand simplicity.

Take two competing extremes of the AWES complexity-scale; kPower's Low-Complexity "pure rag and string" v. Makani's High-Complexity E-VTOL flygen approaches; and how they address the same design need for minimal entropy (maximum order). Makani intends to maintain its complex aerospace platform in near-perfect order (nominal low-density-of-states) by elaborate redundant back-up systems. kPower proposes it can achieve far higher order (far less entropy) by pure polymer aloft, with higher inherent topological and geometric order, for more power at lower cost.

We are just at the start of formal consideration of AWES Entropy, and what astounding predictions follow (like UHMWPE negative absolute temperatures (!) based on Debye theory).  Already, the thermodynamic view takes us far beyond the previous detail-engineering pinhole view. There is a vast prior thermodynamic literature, and here is a fairly standard intro link to Entropy and density-of-states, with the basic math tools to ponder open questions like High- v. Low-Complexity AWE-


Here is Wikipedia's intro-level Entropy article-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16862 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest
Doug,

You overlook real progress on almost every point you raise, and wholly failed to justify dragging Musicaerial into your soured postings. Musicaerial is invited to AWEfest, if that helps. We really do have dozens of AWE prototypes from past years, but most are toy-scale and do odd jobs like pump water, grind coffee, wind up a clock, make music, or trickle-charge phones. Without a positive attitude, you can't appreciate much.

AWE progress really is happening without you. I bet you $1000 you are wrong about AWEfest not happening, rather than just being slow to launch. Put your money up, or just whine on, 

daveS

PS Lets at least agree USWindLabs is not ready for AWEfest, despite over ten years to prepare. Other players really are ready, even if you cannot see that yet.


On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 11:36 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16863 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: AWEfest 2015 Call-for-Participation
AWEfest is modeled on the brilliant example of Mark Steltzer and Jane Parker Ambrose, who created One Sky One World (world-wide kite-day festival) a generation ago. Anyone can therefore celebrate AWEfest, wherever they are, including as a parallel activity at the world's established kite festivals. 

For several years now, even before we understood it as such, we have been convening with AWE kite friends and celebrating by flying AWES experiments. Our late mentor, Wubbo Ockels, right before he died publicly called for a music event format to spread AWE. Now we are calling this emerging cultural movement "AWEfest", and 2015 is going to be the biggest year yet.

Are you developing a working AWES safe enough to fly at a public AWEfest event? Do you want to learn about AWE and volunteer to help AWEfest team efforts? Please reply to the AWES Forum, or to kPower, to participate. TIA to all the creative spirits who will make AWEfest a wonderful event.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16864 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Highly-Polarized Wind-Rose Kite-Arch Advantage
kPower claims, on experimental and theoretic grounds, that large powerful arch kites like Mothra1 are easy to rotate, by several known methods. The current third-party partial validation is how easily kite-hobbyists rotate weaker (but still large) arches by hand, at long kite festivals. A rotatable arch works isotropically, while a non-rotatable arch is anisotropic.

Arch rotation is a less critical design issue in many places with directionally consistent winds, like global Trade Winds, gap winds, sea-breezes, etc. Here is a typical case of a highly-polarized Wind-Rose (San Bernardino, CA), where an anisotropic AWES may be favored over iso-solutions-


Example Wind Rose Plot - Select for Full GIF Image

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16865 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Moderator reports

Posters,

          Please note how much more readable posts would be if we gave the screen name followed by a quote in quotation marks, maybe italics also, and perhaps in a non-black color (use online edit tool). Maybe additionally highlight the quote in a yellow or light color.  The hundreds of people that will later read one's post will have less confusion while understanding more of your post.  Thanks for respecting present and following readers.  Please start a new post for new topics; such will help in many ways.

E.g.,


DaveS wrote: "vvvvvvvvv  vvvvvvv vvvvvvv"

My comment: wwwwww wwww ww www.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16866 From: dave santos Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Abstract Kite Cases (Clues or mere curiosities?)
Attachments :
Open question- Are any of many cases of abstract "kites" meaningful in the RAD (rapid AWE dev) sense?

Kites are a formally defined polygon type-
Inline image


Another abstract kite case in BBC educational content- a form of Kite Diagram is a standard graphical presentation of the summed type areas along, say, biological or archeological trancepts-

Then there are various other mathematical kites-


I think there is something behind the tendency of the lowly kite to now be expanding conceptually, beyond anyone's prior expectations.

  @@attachment@@
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16867 From: dougselsam Date: 2/11/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest
HEY DAve:  YOU said the whole thingwassupposed to happen inweeksfr om your posti in 2013.  Every single thing in your post was a lie.  of COURSe you can ber elied upon to keepyour lying shell game going - now of course this mythical series of concerts unamiguoouslys hceduled by YOU for 2013 becomes fodder for mORE e ndless lies.  Now you can just go on forever saying it "has been delayed" or whatever ne w lie yuo want tos ay -it isjust all lies,all  the time, and I have clearly shown that.   I haves hown that everything you post issheer balderdash,and I willa lso say thatmos t of the techical points you think youma ke are more balderdash - most ofth e time youjh ave no idea whatyo u are talking aboutanm d most of the scientific-sounding things you post are just misplaced inappropriate nonsesne that is out of context and misapplied.  The problem with popele like youi s that you do NOT admot wheny ou are wrong.  You can;t bringyou rself to ever admit anything,you  jutske ep posturingand  pretending to bethe  expert of all experts. Why not just say "Yeah I was reallyf ull of it - there was no serieso f concerts in 2013 leading up to a big concert in NYC, no big stars, no sound system, no lights, no parking, no porta-potties, nosecurity, no nothing. wh y not just ADMIT what everone knows:  what you said was s imply no t true?  NONE of it w as true.  Itwa s ALL BLATHER.  PLEase stop botheriing me by telling moreo f your lies!  Just go away with your nonsense!  It is absolutely ridiculous.  AND you wanna BET me $1000 now?  OMG who would be gullible enough to believe youwo uld ever pay?  Give mne a timeline!  you can drag it out forever - lies til the end of time.  Oh wait - woithh you there IS NO timeline now that you've been caught in ten more lies for tehth ousandth time.  THere coould be no such thinga s winning a betwi th you sicen you are not an honest player, as this whole interchange clearly shows!  You stated in no uncertain terms that therew ould be a series of AWE-powered concerts in Austin in 2013, naming the venue, right after your hayfarm fly-off.  Remember, the "winners"wopuld power a series of concerts in Austin at apa rk?  REmember?  2013?  Hello, Earth to dave.  YOUr 2013 series of concerts in Austin THAT is what i am talking about: YOUR previuos statement.  I did NOT ever eb=ven imply that no AWE-fest could never happen or would never happen.  That is YOU putting wordsin  my mouth making one of your famos straw-man arguments.  You cannot stand against what i say so you haveto  try tomak e up things I never said. t ry refuting whati  actually said, not what you want to try and turn it into.  You said somethngi was going to happen, you gavce the timeline and it was 100% complete nonsense - every singlew ord of it was ALL nonsense, and you knowi t, and trying to change the subject to what COULD hppaen someday in the future is just one more way for you to lie, since nobody cans ay whatt he future will be, the future is  OPEN SEASON for your lies, therefore I picked one set ofl ies that HADA  timeline wehich has long passed, so I had a chance to PROVE that all you say is lies.  You cannot weasel your way out of it - you lieda nd lied and lied, and it si just one teeny example of virtually all you say being lieaf ter lieaf ter lie.  MY keyboard sometimes has trouble keeping up with my typing speed,and I do not have time to go back andc orrect the typos.  my positive attitudei s that progress in any field takes place based on truth and people knowing what they are doing, not liars making false statements.  It is you with the negativity whihc consists of substituting lies for truth alld ay every day.  I have reallyn ever seena nyone capable of lying to the extent you do.  YOusa y you can admitw hen you are wrong?  Welli  think you are not capable of it so I will admit it FOR you:  Your 2013 hayfarm did NOT result in  "the winners" powering "A series of concerts in a park in Austin",which did NOT lead to a concert in NYC, which did NOT feature big stars, PERIOD.  Saying a concert could happen somewhere someday isj ust an unverifiable statement that is anattempot to change the s ubject.  One characteristic of pa thologicall iars is the include more details than necessary - an easy dead giveaway to spot liars.  In this case, you gave many many many detailsa nd every single one ofthe m wasa  lie.  Don;t mnake itw orse - yuao re busted - a confirmed liar - there is nothingmor e to it.  The really8 dumb thing about all your lies is theyar e so transparent - they don;t even make any sense!  How can you schedule concerts poweredb y AWE stsyems that have not even been develioped?  A CHILD could flag everything you say as a lie becuase your statemnts are mutulaly contradictory and do not stand on  their own merits.  i havenever seen such nonsense.  Yout ake the cake.  congratulations.


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16868 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest

Awareness and Perspective

regarding music from AWES


Of course there are differences in awareness and differences in perspectives among perceivers! 

The range of differences may be quite wide, especially among creative people. And so it should be, else where would be the creativity? What is music to one is not music to another; maybe one hears a concert where another hears noise or even silence.  The topic of this post was muscaeriel where a creative person was appreciating vibrations in uncommon ways. We have in early forum notes about ancient musical kites; some nation, was it Thailand?, seems to have a deep culture of making musical kites.  And along the way we have noted how tether vibrations are "music" to some of us; some of us savor the music of small and large AWES where others among us may have no ear for oscillations. It turns out that a line in the wind under tension results in music to some of us. The concert in our community has a beginning that very well may blossom to fantastic odes and sound poems striking the ears and heart of people around the world.

     Not yet able to appreciate the music that others hear at kite fests and AWE R&D field sessions need not have such condition engender a negative harangue; an option would be to spend effort to unfold and discover the gems that others are polishing and playing; in time, the not-yet-able could become able. One's particular sensors are special, but such sensors may not resonate with what others are hearing. An AWEfest is easy to come by for some; just fly a toy AWES and watch some dance to the music that is inevitable for them; such will not be the case for all.   But when one is knowing joy, such may be a cause for pause and awe and wondering; staying open to dance of others might be a bridge for enlightenment and growth.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16869 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: Musicaeriel & AWE Music Fest
Doug,

You overlook AWEfest as a team effort. I was obliged to go along with the kPower management decision to postpone a big launch event in Austin. Factors included risking low capital reserves and the weak summer wind pattern. Nevertheless, we did a lot of great preparation and even had several social sessions at kFarm that really did constitute a start, with a nice circle of kPower friends. Wish you had been there, but we pick up again in March, so have hope.

Of course, no AWE effort is more overdue to show progress than your claimed ST, and you are being judged most on what you finally accomplish. No one but you is as naive to jump on natural programming delay as if it was "all lies"*. Fortunately AWEfest is alive and well, without any help from you. Eventual AWEfest success will prove Wubbo was fortunately right, and you were wrong all along,

daveS


* When you should be announcing your own overdue successes as "world's greatest" wind inventor.











On Thursday, February 12, 2015 7:03 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16870 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context
All professionals make honest errors, without being liars. Serious technical critics use less inflammatory language to suggest helpful corrections, which are gratefully accepted by similarly serious claimants.

When a search is done on Forum Posts on "lies" (and the psychotically hyperbolic cliche, "all lies"), Doug Selsam by far is the top source of the accusations, bandied in all directions. He neglects the proper high standard of fairly judging a lie, which is to prove deliberate willful falsehood from evidence. His many victims bear up with dignity, and rest on the due merit of their work.

Therefore when Doug makes provably false claims*, no one wrongly claims they are "lies". In the AWE world, only Doug is habitually uses "lies" and even worse insults, in such an unprofessional manner, in line with his troubled isolated status. Everyone just hopes he gets better, and somehow makes a tangibly useful contribution to AWES development.
------------------

* Sample US WindLabs false technical-marketing claim:

"(SuperTwin) rotors face into wind at slight angle - both rotors deliver full power"

Fact: Off-axis and/or partially shadowed rotors do not "deliver full power".
====
Sample professional attitude- British Railways on operational delay error: "We're also investigating ways to recover a situation and improve the ways we communicate with passengers when things do go wrong"


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16871 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Kite Power wins Design Synthesis Exercise Competition
Congratulations to the student team. We still await full details, but e-kite, as a sponsor, posted this brief announcement-



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16872 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: TUDelft DUWIND Gathering
Many local AWE events are not yet online, so we catch them up later. Here was a nice AWE dinner-talk gathering last Sept. at TUDelft. It would be exciting to learn all new technical disclosures that likely occurred. 

The invitation offers bare synoptic details. There is a seen a welcome "shift towards operational reliability, robustness and material durability", which have been design priorities in Open-AWE for many years (but Safety first), with passive supervisory control-automation built upon robustness. The deep durability crisis is for High-Complexity designs that cannot survive a single crash before a maximally remote pay-back date.

Dutch and Swiss players understand this informally, but uphold a strong tradition of public circumspection, while deftly working both sides of cultural divides that surround them. Its known from leaks that GoogleX contracts TUDelft for M600 engineering studies, but unpromising research results for this rich powerful client are diplomatically obscured. German and Italian AWE superpowers get similar surface deference, but not much actual respect. This was the EU AWE  party that matched common interests of the marshes and mountains :


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16873 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: GoogleX claiming Makani will "commercially launch" Makani AWES "by 2
The expert take is that this is likely an overambitious goal, but at least Makani is not giving up on the M600 architecture, which would be one of the greatest aerospace feats ever. I will give the project a pass if it manages to fly for a few days, with multiple launch-land cycles. Its unclear how Makani's highest capital-cost AWES architecture squares with the developing India energy market-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16874 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: Re: GoogleX claiming Makani will "commercially launch" Makani AWES "
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16875 From: dave santos Date: 2/12/2015
Subject: SkySails announces 10MW AWES Unit Goal
In agreement with previous Forum analysis, where the MegaFly parafoil was estimated to be a 10MW range wing, extrapolating from SkySails 2MW rated smaller ship kites; SkySails now ups its modest 3.5MW ambitions to develop 10MW range AWES units, which the MegaFly shows to be doable in-principle. kPower thinking is that AWE must surpass industrial wind power unit-scale to dominate the global wind market, given requirements like Pilot-In-Command (PIC), Visual Observer (VO), and other scale-sensitive costs. Cheap-kite capital-intensity alone is not enough to strongly out-compete against wind towers.

Note that the MegaFly is composed of multiple wing sections (kixels), indicating that multiplying practical-sized units in highly topological ordered assemblies is a prime scaling method. Skysails will presumably also develop modular wings, under the severe scaling demands. GW-rated wings, as consistently proposed in Open-AWE, may not be too far off, if SkySails 10MW units succeed. Meanwhile, Makani has quietly scrubbed all signs it ever proposed a 5MW rigid flygen kiteplane (M5), and the M600, even if it works, is too little to win big. AWES architectural winners and losers seem to be emerging into clear view, if such trends hold-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16876 From: dougselsam Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context
Hey Dave:  You DID lie about the series of concerts in Austin in 2013, leading to a concert in NYC, including major stars, etc., and you continue to lie today, now claiming these 2013 concerts that were never actually planned at all, were "postponed".  When a concert is "postponed", which does occasionally happen, here is what you would see:
1) There really WAS a concert planned, including minor aspects like having bands scheduled, a sound system, lights, porta-potties, security, etc., etc., etc.
2) The other concerts of a "series" would still have transpired on schedule
3) An announcemnt is made of postponement: "This concert, featuring Ozzy Osbourne, will be postponed, due to rain
4) A makeup date: " Ozzy will instead pay a week later on date X, at the same venue Y, at Z O'clock.

Your further lies include implying that I ever said no AWE-powered concert could ever happen, or that I am somehow against an AWE-powered concert, or that ANY FUTURE AWE-powered concert qualifies as the specific "series of concerts" you announced for 2013 in Austin, at a specific park, at that time, including typical liar details like "flashmob" and "big stars".

These can only be the words of a liar or a nutcase. 

Just imagine, some homeless guy under a bridge comes up to you and starts saying: "Yeah, I'm having a series of concerts starting in a couple weeks, leading up to a major concert in New York, major music stars blah blah blah"...  Since you know this person is not an actual concert promoter, you would assume they were mentally ill or a pathological liar.  Maybe you would give them a dollar and wish them well, and they would say "God Bless..."   

If you wanted to find out FOR SURE whether there really WAS a concert, or this person was just mentally-ill or a pathological liar, (as though there was ever any doubt) all you'd have to do is wait a few weeks to see if the concerts ever actually occurred, at which point your diagnosis of insanity/pathological liar would be verified.

If you don't like the words "LIE", and "LIAR" which are the most simple and accurate way to categorize someone who goes around "announcing" a "series of concerts with major stars" while no such concerts are actually planned, no sound system reserved, no stars hired, no sound system, etc., I have a  few other words you could use:
1) Farce
2) Falsehood
3) Fraudulent
4) Fictional
5) Fake
6) Flim-FLam
7) Far-Fetched
8) Fool (as in "can't fool all the people all the time")
9) Fishy
10) Flagrant
11) Felonious
12) Fantasy
13) Factual (not)
14) Fallacious
15) Flakey
16) Fib
If you get tired of words starting with "F", there are 25 other letters left:
17) Sham
18) Hoax
19) Inaccurate
20) Balderdash
21) Bunk
22) BS
23) Baloney...

and we can go on for thousands of words, all carrying the same basic meaning:
The person made statements that WERE NOT TRUE. (a simple concept)

As always, you would like to keep your ponzi-scheme-of-veracity going by "paying off the OLD lies with NEW lies" (I didn't exactly LIE about the series of concerts in 2013 with major stars, errr, ummm, they were merely... postponed!  Yeah, that's it, postponed!"

and the liar breathes a little sigh of relief, lying to himself, that anyone actually believes him THIS time...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16877 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Ampyx and Leuven seeking an "AWESCO PhD fellow" (and Ampyx's AWEC le
The High-Complexity Ampyx AWES architecture is understandably lagging in critical capability to launch and land its hot kiteplane on a cradle. A new strategy is to seek a champion figure, who would earn a PhD for drawing out the sword-in-the-stone for Ampyx. Its not known if the position is filled yet, but the trail should pop up in Leuven*. This champion is rather overdue, since Ampyx publicly announced in 2010, "The development of a commercial 1MW PowerPlane is expected to be finalized in 2013."

Since 2011 we counted on Ampyx founder, Richard Ruiterkamp, to reform AWEC's secretive pay-to-play clique into an open accountable industry association, as he promised in Leuven in 2011, as its (internally elected) director; but that never happened either. Millions have been raised and spent by Ampyx, much of it crowd-sourced. AWEC reform neglect while raising millions has been a consistent pattern, with ongoing continuity via NTS and Guido's insider leadership. Lately if seems as if AWEC is discarded in favor of new PR concoctions, having bled as much vitality for insider interests as it could, in supposed interests of all AWE.



* More on AWESCO PhD Fellows (does not exactly fit Ampyx job listing)


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16878 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context
Doug,

We really made a serious start, with open events at kFarm, before summer winds in Texas also figured in the delay. The plans are still on, including NYC. When AWEfest finally catches up, then you can stop complaining.

If we were to use your standard of what is a lie (an unintended time error), you would be the top offender, even proposing your super-alternator "should last forever" on the USWindLabs website.

Good luck proving "All roads lead to the SuperTurbine" was no lie, by your definition of lie,

daveS




On Friday, February 13, 2015 9:48 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16879 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
It will do little good to optimize the wrong AWES paradigm. For years now, many AWE developers have presumed that optimizing for minimal wing area for a given output was the key design parameter. The logic went like this typical example from Leuven-

" the bulk of [HAWT] power (about 60 percent) is generated by the thin outer 30 percent of the rotor blades and the rest of the construction is just needed to keep these “wings” in their fast crosswind motion. A radical redesign of the turbine is to omit the tower and the inner parts of the blades, and to keep these “wings” flying in a fast crosswind direction only with help of automatic control and a strong cable that is anchored upwind at the ground."*

This thinking lead to high L/D rigid-kiteplane design concepts, like Ampyx and Makani, with several years and many millions spent now, but the unresolved logical fallacies are many. Rigid kiteplanes with cantilevered wings are even more scaling limited by the same square-cube law that optimization scientists invoked against HAWTs (!), compounded by aeronautical issues-

"the so-called square-cube law, which states that the strength and power output of a turbine [or rigid aircraft] grow with the square of its height [or wing-span], whereas its mass grows cubically. "*

Many critical factors were overlooked in the "blade-tip" paradigm, like the inherent energetic cost to maintain mass aloft aerodynamically, rather than sitting on a tower. The larger the kiteplane, the less free energy available for harvest, by combining square-cube law with the energy demand of flight itself. Nor did intrinsic demands of aviation safety figure in the premature conceptual down-select for high mass-density high-velocity flight, and launching and landing challenges were discounted. Excessive parasitic tether-drag was accepted. Capital intensity and other economic aspects were not direct optimized-design driving factors either.

A counter-paradigm of Low-Complexity AWE emerged from very different premises. Cost, safety, and scalability where the driving concepts, without specific regard for the misleading HAWT partial similarity-case. Far larger cheaper slower safer wing of pure soft-kite is seen as best avoiding the square-cube law scaling trap. Inherent passive flight stabilities were easily applied. TRL and COTS values were shown far higher.

As a formal mathematical basis for the new competing paradigm, the quasi- one-dimensional and two-dimensional highly-scalable geometry of "pure string and rag" best overcame square-cube law, and the higher topological order of many-connected AWES lattices was developed. Control challenges were greatly mitigated by a kitefarm concept for a single supervisory control thread, with greatly reduced flight instabilites and real-time challenges.

These competing paradigms also correspond to an incerasingly fractured political climate in AWE, with millions of public dollars in play. Lets hope this deep division within AWES engineering optimization science is soon resolved by open academic debate and test data.
--------------------------------------------

* Quotes above are common AWES claims, but in this instance came from Leuven, where engineering-optimization has been the explicit operative principle-


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16880 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
LAWS : Rules that exist to be broken.

Sides, tribes and counter-paradigms : fighting talk and stances never got anyone anywhere.

Many possible AWES configurations and scaling methods exist.
Everyone's AWES rig experience and luck has equal merit.

There's a continuum of AWES operations to be surfed. Run the steep parts.
Keep practising new moves, concocting and mixing till you get it tasty.

No time to be precious... I'm re-rigging my PTO this week.
Good luck all.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16881 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
Rod,

Note that "law" here is KULeuven's usage (Galileo's "square-cube law"). I accept Leuvan's standard scientific usage, over your objection. You are projecting your emotions on a fine topic, without offering any scaling method example that breaks scientific law. Honestly proposing a logical fallacy is only fighting language to those less able to do so themselves, so please reconsider.

Sorry you did not value my logical content on its face, enough to really focus on it. Its the greater fallacy here, beyond AWES optimization ups and downs, is to cast the topic as other than the amazing technical question it actually is,

daveS




On Friday, February 13, 2015 12:35 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16882 From: Rod Read Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?

I value your content Dave S,
I'm not saying it's purely logical.
Scaling 1 dimension e.g layering convenient sizes, as I've pointed toward before doesn't incur cubic mass penalties.
How would you like to try fitting a group of rigid Makani wings in a ring...? And layering them..? Or stacking M600?
Why does an isotropic mesh need to be purely rag and string? hoisted with the likes of an SSSL? It doesn't.
Isotropic mesh Optimisation and scalability may yet come from control mechanisms... Ground or air based.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16883 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
DaveS

I have never heard ANY explicit description of how you are proposing to actually make electric power in your highly-preferred world of vast "soft rag and string arrays". Oh, I have heard allusions to "picking off power at anti-nodes…..", but never a concise description/diagram of the dynamic impact on the system, or feasibility of such a mechanism, nor any quantification of the output (beyond charging cell-phones) of these "magical devices".

Might you provide such to the forum?

DaveL

Quote of the day: a Plaque I saw on a lawyer's wall 
"If they have you beat on the law then argue fact; If they have you beat on fact then change the subject"  :-)





On Feb 13, 2015, at 11:59 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16884 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
DaveL requested: " concise description/diagram of the dynamic impact on the system, or feasibility of such a mechanism, nor any quantification of the output "


The most current overview of AWES work I am associated with is-


In particular look at the looping parafoils, especially the small foil pumping an air-pump at 20psi indicated. The foot pump is a standard third party unit with a specific simple geometry, the video is a time base, the kites are standard. The difference between us, is that I am content to drive the pump with COTS kites and parts and no complex automation, based on classic kiting, while you seem to need more quantification. I would love for a third-party test engineer to provide quantification, and think you overvalue if I were to satisfy your need.

In other videos note that the standard kites are doing work, and its true that in many cases, exact figures are wanting. What is claimed is not power data, but operation of self-flying COTS rigs. You must to the best of your ability generalize from proxy data from other teams, with comparable kites and machinery, for now, or find funds to cover tests of our machines to your exact data requirement. We have not even been recording wind speeds systematically. A lot of this is start-up poverty, not lack of inherent scientific prowess.

If you would visit the World Kite Museum, and nearby Ilwaco, as a VIP, you could inspect and have demoed any of many concepts prototyped. Drachen's own digital archives and other online archives document many concepts that may not yet have any real counterpart, but still be worthwhile excercises wit valid insights, like your study of space elevators.

Let me know if you need a more comprehensive list of online sources, to finally satisfy your request for information. Hoping SkyMill has as much AWE conceptual progress to share :)

daveS



On Friday, February 13, 2015 3:38 PM, "David Lang SeattleDL@comcast.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16885 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: For Dave Lang
Sorry if this is not a good enough demo of Low-Complexity AWES showing passive autonomy, with reasonable power, using COTS parts; to compare against High Complexity AWES schemes.


A common sled self-launch got cut from the start of this, but we do have clips showing "all-modes". This ran for three-weeks, and ended in good condition, with an indefinite service life to test-



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16886 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
DaveS,

I guess I was wondering what your concepts were to scale-up this stuff (you describe) to "industrial strength electrical power", since you seem to feel that low complexity rag-n-string is the way to go with AWE. Note, there may be other issues of scaling besides your oft-quoted algorithm….like a 1000 kixel rag-n-string spaghetti bowl :-)

DaveL




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16887 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
In review, as stated yesterday, SkySails' existing wing rated by them at 2MW, with their stated 10MW ambition, and the MegaFly 5x (by area) case as a 10MW estimated rating parafoil- these are the heuristic evidence to suppose 10MW is feasible by kPower's KIS rigging innovation. We are also riding Peter Lynn's coat-tails on the pilot-lifter side and can already stack his biggest lifters for plots of scaling. Right now kPower is at the 10x scale-up (from the Prism 1.2 to the Pansh 12m power wing with 2 PL PLs).

I see no scaling law barrier to scaling up "rag & string" to tens-of-km (esp. if space elevators are feasible) and only wonder how others, like you, can see scaling in AWE so differently (to me, mysteriously pitiful). 

If you don't like mine, what is your AWES scaling vision? Single-line rotor trains? I am preparing a heuristic proof for higher topological order as a good predictor of scaling potential, so you know where I am headed (connecting across pumping trains with a top-mesh topology).


On Friday, February 13, 2015 5:57 PM, "David Lang SeattleDL@comcast.net [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16888 From: dave santos Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Defining Topological Order for AWES
There are varied standard definitions of topological order, but they all express a shared thermodynamic physics of entropy. Cristina Archer already defined the AWES wind field thermodynamically [Springer AWE book 2013]; so creating a bulk thermodynamic characterization of AWES kite-matter is but a logical extension of her classic approach. Excess model-complexity is kept in check by the high level of abstraction of thermodynamic analysis.

For AWES purposes, UHMWPE possesses very high topological order, with very long well-oriented crystalline fibers. If we can build AWES flight platforms that are almost pure polymer, they then start with maximal microscopic order. By comparison, resin-composites and electrical conductors, and many other odds and ends AWE designers want to fly, are far less perfectly ordered, and more prone to topological defects. In our AWES case- a nick in a line, a crack in a spar, or other stress-concentrator, even the very electrical resistence of electrons in copper or aluminum wires, missing bridle lines, and broken parts. Topological defects range from the microscopic to the macroscopic, at every scaling level.

Topological order of an entire kite farm is the top macroscopic level. At this scale, the common paradigm of single-line AWES units across the kite field create a brush topology, which has drastically less topological order than a well-designed many-connected kite lattice, with the advantages of crystalline line-geometry, and long range order across upper levels (not just the surface-plane).

As stated in a prior post, entropy and topological order are defined on a spectrum of density-of-states, and the number and density of potential failure modes captures this aspect. For example, a flygen can both part tether and/or fail electrically aloft, but electrical-failure aloft failure-modes simply do not exist for pure polymer-aloft topological order. Similarly, a true 3D lattice is less prone to disorderly tangles, and can support higher sub-unit densities, by its higher topological order.

The most beautiful highest topological theoretic order are pure polymer kite lattices fully inflated by wind, and the physical prediction is that such order will support powerful resonances that can tapped as thermodynamic free-energy, and no inherently less-ordered scheme will ultimately compete.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16889 From: David Lang Date: 2/13/2015
Subject: Re: Optimization Fallacies in AWE?
Ok DaveS,

What do you mean by your comment: "(esp. if space elevators are feasible)".

And while you're explaining, also elaborate on what you mean by your comment: "(to me, mysteriously pitiful)"

DaveL



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16890 From: dougselsam Date: 2/14/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context
Hey Dave, many general statements, such as "All roads lead to SuperTurbine(R)", reflect opinions, rather than specifying an exact event or time.  Your statements, in contrast, were quite specific, and easily verified.  You specifically stated there "will" be "a series of concerts" featuring "major stars", as a followup to your 2013 hayfarm AWE trials, which "the winnners" of the 2013 hayfarm trials would power.  The timeline was specified as "weeks".  You named the park in Austin where this "series of concerts" would be held.  You even specified, in no uncertain terms, that the "series of concerts" would be publicized by means of "flashmob".  And you further specified that this 2013 "series of concerts" would form a "dress-rehearsal" for a further concert "in NYC".

It is TOO LATE for any of this to be true.  Your 2013 "series of concerts" powered by "the winners" of your 2013 hayfarm trials never happened AT ALL, and never came CLOSE to happening.  There were NO announced "winners" of your trials, NO flashmob, NO series of concerts, NO big stars, and in fact, NO useful amnount of power demonstrated at your hayfarm to power ANYTHING whatsoever.  It was ALL a COMPLETE FABRICATION, based on NOTHING.  It is OVER.  It is DONE.  It DID NOT HAPPEN.  You are BUSTED as a NON-TRUTH-TELLER, and no future AWE-powered concert, should such concert EVER take place, can RESCUE the fact that you simply told a very detailed set of PREVARICATIONS, in a vain and misguided attempt at self-glorification.

Your statements reminded me of the kinds of lies sometimes told by, for example, an insecure and emotionally disturbed high school student, seeking approval, promising things like "My dad is going to promote a concert with major stars and I can get everyone tickets".  Of course the kid is just seeking attention, and his dad is not really a concert promoter, and of course none of the kids ever gets free tickets.  It was just the new kid in town seeking attention, not thinking the whole process through, not realizing how, when the promised concert never occurs, that he will look silly and, rather than being a "hero", he will instead be looked upon as "that liar".

You can go on forever telling more and more lies trying to make your previous lies look "OK", but the only person you are fooling is yourself.  Your promised scenario never happened, the time is over, and there is no way to go back now and change history.  It is done.  You HAD NO series of concerts in 2013, and certainly these nonexistent concerts were not powered by working AWE systems from your hayfarm trials, since, for one thing, such working AWE systems emanating from said hayfarm trials are ALSO nonexistent.

So you can stop talking now, stop rationalizing, stop trying to rewrite history.  You made specific promises that did not turn out to be true, and that is the end of it.  The more you try to squirm out of the fact that your words carry no meaning, the less meaning your words are seen to carry, until there is no recognized veracity in almost anything you say.

If I can debunk the lies of multi-million dollar projects from MIT, complete with the requisite phalanx of milk-and-cookies grad students, without batting an eyelash and with both hands tied behind my back, I can certainly debunk the statements of a raving madman, while asleep and not even lifting a finger.  Debunking your statements is like shootiing fish in a barrel.  All it takes is to isolate any statement you make that can actually be verified, and that process of verification reveals that the statements are not true.  Since most of what you say is too general to pin down, and always pertains to a nebulously defined future, most of them are hard to PROVE as lies right away.  But when you give specifics, that is my opening to simply verify or not verify what you say, and obviously, the promised 2013 "series of concerts" featuring "major stars", powered by AWE systems that were "the winners" from your 2013 hayfarm trials did NOT take place as you specificed, nor did the promised followup NYC concert.  Those are the facts, and as we know, you are allergic to facts.  If the promised "concerts" had been legitimately "postponed", we would have had an announcement of postponement and a makeup date.  The fact is, NOTHING was in place to implement such an AWE-powered "series of concerts" - NOT ONE COMPONENT.

There WAS no "winning" AWE system, no AWE system making any power, certainly not electricity to power a concert, no "major stars" - NONE of it.  The only thing we ever heard after that was a couple months later you claimed to have bought a Marshall amp.  (No doubt one of their watered-down, solid-state "wannabe" amps, aimed at the consumer market, for kids who don't know any better...)  Buying an amp months later is about at the level of that new kid in high school - the kind of rationalization such a kid might offer months later to try and rescue his reputation after promising all the other kids free tickets to a nonexistent concert.  "Well, my dad bought me a Marshall amp!", and maybe the other kids might accept such as some version of a substitute for the previously-promised, mythical "free concert tickets".

As for a future AWE-powered concert, I'm all for it, and maybe someday there will be one, but what it WON'T be is your promised "series of concerts" at that park in Austin in 2013 that are "dress rehearsals" for a further concert in NYC.  Why?  2013 is over.  There was no AWE system at the hayfarm making any power, there were no "major stars", and it was all just empty promises, quite silly really, and a child could see that none of the requisite factors for such a 'series of concerts" were in place, ever, at all.  The time is passed, and you can stop trying to justify your previous statements now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16891 From: dave santos Date: 2/14/2015
Subject: Re: False Claims in an AWE Professional Context
Doug wrote:"The timeline was specified as "weeks""

Note that your use of "forever" can be specified in infinite "weeks", if math logic has any effect here.

Recall how you claimed you could demonstrate effective AWE with just a "weekend" of hacking. Obviously your many time claims are more "opinion" than manifest by any AWE success.

AWEfest may be growing slower than I fought for within kPower, but it really is still far ahead of anything you are known to be working on. If it triumphs, you will have been the least able to predict that. Once again, Wubbo will have gone beyond what you could understand, since AWEfest is his idea too.


On Saturday, February 14, 2015 8:16 AM, "dougselsam@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com