Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES16209to16258 Page 219 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16209 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16210 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Edmund Villarreal. VentAir Technologies. VAST 6 (TM)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16211 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16212 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and upda

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16213 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16214 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Caldeira's AWE v. Nuke Advocacy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16215 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Large field isotropic mesh simulation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16216 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16217 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16218 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16219 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Caldeira's AWE v. Nuke Advocacy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16220 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16221 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16222 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16223 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16224 From: Rod Read Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16225 From: Rod Read Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16226 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16227 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16228 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16229 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16230 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16231 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16232 From: Rod Read Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16233 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16234 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Added Loadpaths to Swivel-linked Kite Leaders/ Anisotropic Kite Elem

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16235 From: benhaiemp Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: AWE on French TV on 11/29/2014

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16236 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16237 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16238 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Re: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16239 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: *Arresting Loads or Damping by Kite System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16240 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Arresting Loads or Damping by Kite System

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16241 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16242 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16243 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16244 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16245 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16246 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Fall Protection by Kite Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16247 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16248 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16249 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Airborne Thermal Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16250 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Spider silk

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16251 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: HAXLR8R AWES "Lean Hardware" Unicorn

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16252 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16254 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: JPL Planetary Balloons and Inflatable Robots

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16255 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Airborne Thermal Energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16257 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16258 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Airborne Thermal Energy




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16209 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H
Doug,

No one has said that torque-transmission is "impossible" on the AWES Forum. Its only proposed that your scheme for 1000ft "rotating towers" is not predictably promising by either power-to-weight or power-to-cost estimates (and requires testing). Perhaps you are confusing James Gordon's famous pronouncement against torque, which he would surely welcome tested.

Rod can choose to compare rope-driving directly by power-to-weight. When and if Rod tries to scale up, the prediction is that he will be blocked by scaling laws limiting how far one can go with rigid structures and still fly effectively to our target winds at 2000ft. Even you seem to stop short of claiming 3000ft AWES rotating-towers are possible (to reach 2000ft at the tilted flying-angle),

daveS


On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 1:34 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16210 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Edmund Villarreal. VentAir Technologies. VAST 6 (TM)
Doug,

All the figures you smear with your Professor Crackpot obsession (like North and Faust) do not fit public "Crackpot Index" psychological profiles. Instead its folks who argue as your who rank as true crackpots, who insist they are the sole valid thinker (Doug: "I am the only AWE expert I am aware of"). Cranks as properly defined are simply unable to function in cultures like NASA or leading universities, where folks see value in peers.

No expert here has ever been fooled by you or Magenn. I do not recall Joe ever advocating Magenn; only documenting them. Magenn was discredited from the first on the AWES Forum (I have publicly warned against FredF's AE incompetence for almost thirty years). Only your own AWE promotions seem more "laughable" (rotating towers are not even airborne), in terms of both hype and unworkability,

daveS


On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 1:38 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16211 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind


El Mirage Wind Power!

Video. Gyro kiting.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16212 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and upda
As the years go by, commercial drone deployment is still being drawn out by cautious regulators like the FAA, while recreational deployment is wide open, limited only by the successful safety standards of skilled hobby and sport communities. One might say that love has so far conquered over greed. Its quite hard to balance the two. A well-known gray area is the testing of hobby and sport products. Open-AWE R&D faces similar issues, but its clear that for many of us, AWE development is all about play, and the FAA exemption is a due right to those who play well.

Small DIY AWES developers are encouraged to join the AKA, AMA, USPHA, EAA,  as entry-points to shared airspace. Seek peer mentoring, practice safety, keep it fun, play hard. Be ready to to climb the the pro aviation ladder as you outgrow the clubs and seek to make money.

An amazing amount of AWE progress is already accountable to the ludic side, which may be the ultimate game-changer-


Should a sport glider or powered aircraft enthusiast have to fly aloft in their related AWES? (No)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16213 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area
I like those old multi rotor sketches but the just didn't go mad big enough...

On the water surface a ring float barge has a mast. Anchoring allows raising and lowering the mast vertically through the ring centre.
The ring float is one of a pair of small rings which set crosswind on the perimeter of a larger diameter taught rope anchored as per previous hex meshes. The anchoring incorporates 360x180 guides run to a nearby barge.
Buoyant fore carts run on the large ring by means of a tensed diameter rope linking the internal carriages and mast floats for cohesive rotation.
Between one fore cart to mast to mast to other fore cart a top line can have mounted on it's node points a large cell hex mesh. The mesh cells cover a sail form area. The mesh cells terminating at the bottom on a lower line linked to the carriages on the downwind of the large rope.
On the inside of the large mesh cells lift kites lined between the cell outer extremities allow for whole rig weather cocking and lift. (furling etc is achievable at node controls) This also allows for ...
Where the large mesh cells abut, swivel ends let the whole cell edge revolve powered by various spinning drivers variously supported from the cell sides as desired. At the lower (or upper) terminus of the cell edge rope ladder torque transfer or other linked spinning method taps toward a generator mounted on another of the linked buoyant carriages on the ring.
Dismantling, stowage and redeployment all doable neatly.

cc4.0 by sa nc + open awes pool

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16214 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Caldeira's AWE v. Nuke Advocacy
Well I don't agree that it immediately shows him as bonkers in the head Dave S.
Yes he doesn't get that even a nugget like myself can doodle and do mongous scale kite awes....
He'll get there.. Can't blame him for not listening. Ignorance has many simple roots in complex society. (e.g. listen to the Reith lectures on why doctors fail)
Where he may even have some obligation or laws to uphold as you say he advocates energy study instead of climate science... ok no job is ever done.. but there is a wheen o climate science looked over with loads of data... nowhere near proportionately enough work has been done on the multiplicity of energy conversion needs of the global populous.
So He's right. But he maybe needs welcomed to study the current clique that is simple awes.
And look at what he's up to and quoted as in the article and you have the cheek to be indignant about him.
Get a grip.
He's up to his pants on a tiny coral reef trying to feed the beast.
Is that worth anything to you? Sure is to me.
For what it's worth, I reckon you have to get off his back and massively outshine his efforts before you can spout that kind of dissing.
Wish I had the chance to tell Billy Windows about kites too.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16215 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Large field isotropic mesh simulation
Thanks Dave, That's very kind of you.
The expansion of this scheme can incorporate loads of what has already been discussed.
I particularly like some of the clamshell field infill scenarios possible.
Thanks again

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16216 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H
Depends on so many effects Dave.
How much of this 2000ft do you reckon would be a rotating ladder?
How wide (thick, dense...) does it need to be between stages with which ropes to effectively transmit?
What's the rotary driver?
What lifts the driver?
I had originally imagined it up the legs of the isotropic meshes you love the lifty look of...
How long till I "Break a leg" (from stage curtain ropes fraying... a good performer got so many encores of rope hoisting... they broke a leg.)


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16217 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and
Proving the availability of maximal safe access to all flown parts would surely be a bonus though.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16218 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: FAA Green-Light to Recreational Aviation Categories (review and
I'd certainly trust being hoisted under a massive sail rig more than under most any of those spinny hard things.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16219 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Ken Caldeira's AWE v. Nuke Advocacy
Rod,

No on but you is making this about "bonkers". Ken seems sane enough. You defend your own straw-man only. You "Get a grip" on the actual issues instead, which really are bigger than KenC, you, or me; which will continue to be of keen interest to all the non-bonkers parties involved, if not you.

In summary, this is about whether heavyweight decision makers like US DOE should hear the case for Low-Complexity AWE on a level playing field with "safe nukes" and GoogleX/Makani High-Complexity AWE, not about your high opinion of Ken's tropical globe-trotting lifestyle (which needs to be better validated for me to also approve),

daveS


On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:42 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16220 From: dave santos Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A method to prevent torque induced contraction of Multi-Tether-H
The Hargrave, Selsam, or Read (Daisy) ST problem is simply stated- Show torsion can reach a couple of hundred feet high (within an order-of-magnitude of 2000ft) in a crude prototype, and torsion is still in the AWES mix, rather than a dead letter. Your current drive looks like the right initial scale to test against a 200ft version for scaling effects data to test JGordon.

We all hope with DaveL that every contending AWES concept "be given its day in court", so good luck. Consider varying the ladder steps in width and spacing to dampen bulk harmonics (Phonon QM collective excitation of identical units).


On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 4:54 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16221 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16222 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch
. Self-land relaunch off flatland using various methods self-contained
in system.

One method: Self-reel closing of tether length that couples canopy
wing with HG (thus no ground anchor, no towing vehicle). Both coupled
wings launch into the air while being on long tether; HG reels line.
This does not use trees, soil anchors, gambions, tow vehicles, etc.
The method just needs to keep the two couple wings from snagging
ground objects; launch into air occurs soon; both wing kite upward.
License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA for technology by Joe Faust under kPower,
Inc. thresholds within Open-AWE Cooperative. ~~~~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16223 From: Rod Read Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area

If it is...  5th cousin, twice removed

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16224 From: Rod Read Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area
Here's the initial CAD sketch... http://youtu.be/y0OUdD-wU5I
I'll infill all the lift and torque devices as suggested.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16225 From: Rod Read Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Multi rotor lines guided by lifted mesh over netable sea area
And a better one with some infill and stabilising lines.
http://youtu.be/V6BJIF1qV-M

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16226 From: dave santos Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch
Cool idea, Joe; its a hybrid FF/powered-flight mode workable without wind.

We can suppose the soft-kite or drogue that the HG launches against is somehow doused and stowed on the HG as they close together, so the system remains self-contained for another take-off cycle elsewhere. Another trick with this rig is to self step-tow aloft, wherefore the HG releases the soft-kite or drogue, pays-out the towline, turns back and tows itself back to the drogue to reach max velocity, picks up the drogue, and glides higher by its momentum. Note that a drogue and a high-performance glider can work together synergistically. The drogue can even act as an emergency chute, if the glider breaks.

The trade-offs compared to traditional powered flight require study, since the two modes are so different. We know that in theory the towing can be comparable in efficiency, but can we identify special capabilities? For starters, the system might support classic dual-wing FFAWE (tethered foil-pairs). The system can launch just Joe suggests, self step-tow up into strong wind gradients to then continue flight in FFAWE mode.

We can see the basic ideas work in principle, but that extraordinary skill and talent is needed to perfect them. Wishing we had 100 Dale Kramers to explore the exotic soaring design spaces we have discovered conceptually...

CC+ Open-AWE Pool


On Wednesday, November 26, 2014 9:24 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16227 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch
MORE COMPLETE DISCLOSURE:

Novel Launch Method: Tether-Coupled Gliders Shorten Tether or Tethers To Launch or Gain Altitude

First embodiment: *: Self-reel closing of tether length that couples canopy wing with HG (thus no ground anchor, no towing vehicle). Both coupled wings launch into the air while being on long tether; HG reels line. This does not use trees, soil anchors, gambions, tow vehicles, etc. The method just needs to keep the two coupled wings from snagging ground objects until both wings and line are up off the ground; launch into air occurs soon; both wings kite upward. In one embodiment have only the HG inhabited; bring in canopy wing into HG after altitude is reached and used the system later for rescue or another launch cycle. In another embodiment: Have PG inhabited as one wing coupled to inhabited HG; by the reeling of the coupled line, HG and PG launch each other at once. Umbilical cord; echo of gestation and birth! PG-HG birth each other. Note: the long line may be lifted off the ground by using kites or kytoons along its long length when wanted to keep the line surely off the ground when starting the launch sequence.

Third embodiment has to do with coupled HGs or coupled PGs doing aloft step-tether-closing-towing without propellers, but just the novel method; once coupling distance is short, the line is let out hung while soaring out occurs to put the line at length again; as they are still coupled, then the tether-gather is operated again to have another cycle of tether-gather kiting while couple. Repeast this cycle to climb to limits.

Fourth embodiment of the novel method is to have two independent glider not yet coupled doing a tether coupling while aloft; then proceed to use the novel method for tether-gather kiting without propellers; again stepping cycles my then be used, if wanted.

Fifth embodiment involves having a tether-collecting device on each of the two long-tether-coupled gliders; in such variation both tether-collecting devices may contribute to collecting tether during the shortening of the tether coupling; in such variation the tasking of kiting the two wings is shared by the combination of the two separated collecting devices.

Sixth embodiment of the novel launch method is a threesome where there are three gliders tether-coupled forming a global triangle where two tethers arrive to each glider wing, yet there is but one global triangle of tether; the glider wings are at the three corners of a global triangle of tether. Each glider could have a tether-collecting device; upon operation the gliders' tether-collecting device pull in two lines at once; such operation has the global triangle of tethers shrink in sized as the three separate gliders approach the approximate centroid of the global triangle. As the global triangle of tethers shrinks then there is an apparent wind formed for each glider which may be used to kite up to gain altitude; when the operation is smartly done, then all three gliders are kited together to a higher altitude.

Seventh embodiment is to have the three gliders of the sixth embodiment description release line at the gained altitude to have the global triangle of tether relax and grow as the glider glide away from the centroid of the global triangle. Upon reaching out points forming a larger global triangle of tehter, then the gliders may reverse direction and begin to use the tether-gathering devies again to gain a new step of kiting for another cycle of altitude gain. This all is a threesome coordinated step-towing using the essence of the novel launch method.

Eighth embodiment is to have four or more gliders tether-coupled similar to the sixth embodiment described above, but here the gliders would be at the vertices of a global polygon: square, pentagon, hexagon, hepagon, etc., n-gon, where each glider still has just two lines being collected at its tether-collecting device. During operation for launch to gain kited altitude, each glider collects two tethers; the result is that the n-gon of tether shrinks and each glider faces an apparent wind for use in kiting to a higher altitude. The same operation for step-towing for the n-gon may occur as development in the three-some and the two-glider arrangement.

We are not limited to the eight embodiments briefly described; those skilled in the arts will notice other variations and arrangements that use the fundamental novel launch method. In all embodiments, the gliders may de-couple from the global tether-coupling to enter free-flight; and in such free-flight the gliders may opt to re-couple and enter another cycle of use of the novel launch method. Further, the novel launch method could be used to enter various FFAWE flights where differential winds may be used to advantage for coupled soaring. Also, the novel launch method may be used to launch IFOs which are energy-production sailplanes as especially taught by Gabor Dobos.

*License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA for technology by Joe Faust under kPower, Inc. thresholds within Open-AWE Cooperative. ~~~~ JoeF
Non-profit recreation use of the novel method and experimenting with the novel method is open without royalty respect; commercial use of the novel method is to be negotiated with kPower, Inc. where thresholds trigger certain respects.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16228 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: Minimal kite-towed glider-launch
​First graphic in support of Novel Launch Method



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16229 From: Joe Faust Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind
DougS comments hereon:
====================
Nice Joe.  Yes, that's the kind of fun we have here in the high desert.  Still trying to decide if I have the guts to go for a ride in that thing...  :)
~ DougS
======================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16230 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: gyrocopter-kite flying crosswind
The low flying angle imposed by the pilot load is apparent, and gives a sense of how a similar autogyro AWES would fly with a few kW of extraction. Its clear a bit more wind or towing is wanted, as a gyrocopter WECS nominal wind velocity, compared to an equivalent weight soft-kite, which can operate nominally in lower wind.

Nice supplement case to our limited vintage FA 330 (U-boat autogyro) footage. It seems the FA 330 system must have been often challenged to maintain a desired tactical course in contrary winds, which helps explain its limited deployment. Stability does not seem to be a major problem with tethered piloted autogyros (the El Mirage pilot briefly does hands-off flight), but autogyro kites are prone to getting locked into uncorrected gyro-modes that lead to crashes (gyro-promoted lock-out).

Perhaps this exact autogyro could be located for budget AWES testing, since its validated for tethered engineless operation. We can suppose that a repeated landing flare maneuver imposes a realistic AWES pumping force on a tether in wind, but a pulley bridle or lower tow-point might be needed. Hoping SkyMill is flying AWES autogyros in its current stealth-mode. El Mirage playa evokes fond memories of Ivanpah playa (home of NABX kite buggy expo, also in the Mojave Desert). These are magic places where wheels and wings run riot.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16231 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Novel Flight Method

Novel Launch Method, Flight Method, Soaring Method, Relauch Method

Shortening Wings' Coupling Tethers To Effect Launch, Relaunch, Climbing, FFAWE Soaring, All Without Exterior Anchors or Rotary Propellers: A Novel Flight Method


We will be joining in this topic thread disclosure notes that were in the wrong topics.

First join:

. Self-land relaunch off flatland using various methods self-contained
in system.

One method: Self-reel closing of tether length that couples canopy
wing with HG (thus no ground anchor, no towing vehicle). Both coupled
wings launch into the air while being on long tether; HG reels line.
This does not use trees, soil anchors, gambions, tow vehicles, etc.
The method just needs to keep the two couple wings from snagging
ground objects; launch into air occurs soon; both wing kite upward.
License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA for technology by Joe Faust under kPower,
Inc. thresholds within Open-AWE Cooperative. ~~~~ JoeF

Second join: ===================================
dave santos

Cool idea, Joe; its a hybrid FF/powered-flight mode workable without wind. We can suppose the soft-kite or drogue that the HG launches against is somehow
 ]  Nov 27 9:42 AM

  • 0 Attachment

Cool idea, Joe; its a hybrid FF/powered-flight mode workable without wind.

We can suppose the soft-kite or drogue that the HG launches against is somehow doused and stowed on the HG as they close together, so the system remains self-contained for another take-off cycle elsewhere. Another trick with this rig is to self step-tow aloft, wherefore the HG releases the soft-kite or drogue, pays-out the towline, turns back and tows itself back to the drogue to reach max velocity, picks up the drogue, and glides higher by its momentum. Note that a drogue and a high-performance glider can work together synergistically. The drogue can even act as an emergency chute, if the glider breaks.

The trade-offs compared to traditional powered flight require study, since the two modes are so different. We know that in theory the towing can be comparable in efficiency, but can we identify special capabilities? For starters, the system might support classic dual-wing FFAWE (tethered foil-pairs). The system can launch just as Joe suggests, self step-tow up into strong wind gradients to then continue flight in FFAWE mode.

We can see the basic ideas work in principle, but that extraordinary skill and talent is needed to perfect them. Wishing we had 100 Dale Kramers to explore the exotic soaring design spaces we have discovered conceptually...

CC+ Open-AWE Pool

Third join: ======================================
Joe Faust

MORE COMPLETE DISCLOSURE: *Novel Launch Method: Tether-Coupled Gliders Shorten Tether or Tethers To Launch or Gain Altitude* *First embodiment:* *: Self-reel
   Nov 27 5:32 PM

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MORE COMPLETE DISCLOSURE:

Novel Launch Method: Tether-Coupled Gliders Shorten Tether or Tethers To Launch or Gain Altitude

First embodiment: *: Self-reel closing of tether length that couples canopy wing with HG (thus no ground anchor, no towing vehicle). Both coupled wings launch into the air while being on long tether; HG reels line. This does not use trees, soil anchors, gambions, tow vehicles, etc. The method just needs to keep the two coupled wings from snagging ground objects until both wings and line are up off the ground; launch into air occurs soon; both wings kite upward. In one embodiment have only the HG inhabited; bring in canopy wing into HG after altitude is reached and used the system later for rescue or another launch cycle. In another embodiment: Have PG inhabited as one wing coupled to inhabited HG; by the reeling of the coupled line, HG and PG launch each other at once. Umbilical cord; echo of gestation and birth! PG-HG birth each other. Note: the long line may be lifted off the ground by using kites or kytoons along its long length when wanted to keep the line surely off the ground when starting the launch sequence.

Third embodiment has to do with coupled HGs or coupled PGs doing aloft step-tether-closing-towing without propellers, but just the novel method; once coupling distance is short, the line is let out hung while soaring out occurs to put the line at length again; as they are still coupled, then the tether-gather is operated again to have another cycle of tether-gather kiting while couple. Repeast this cycle to climb to limits.

Fourth embodiment of the novel method is to have two independent glider not yet coupled doing a tether coupling while aloft; then proceed to use the novel method for tether-gather kiting without propellers; again stepping cycles my then be used, if wanted.

Fifth embodiment involves having a tether-collecting device on each of the two long-tether-coupled gliders; in such variation both tether-collecting devices may contribute to collecting tether during the shortening of the tether coupling; in such variation the tasking of kiting the two wings is shared by the combination of the two separated collecting devices.

Sixth embodiment of the novel launch method is a threesome where there are three gliders tether-coupled forming a global triangle where two tethers arrive to each glider wing, yet there is but one global triangle of tether; the glider wings are at the three corners of a global triangle of tether. Each glider could have a tether-collecting device; upon operation the gliders' tether-collecting device pull in two lines at once; such operation has the global triangle of tethers shrink in sized as the three separate gliders approach the approximate centroid of the global triangle. As the global triangle of tethers shrinks then there is an apparent wind formed for each glider which may be used to kite up to gain altitude; when the operation is smartly done, then all three gliders are kited together to a higher altitude.

Seventh embodiment is to have the three gliders of the sixth embodiment description release line at the gained altitude to have the global triangle of tether relax and grow as the glider glide away from the centroid of the global triangle. Upon reaching out points forming a larger global triangle of tehter, then the gliders may reverse direction and begin to use the tether-gathering devies again to gain a new step of kiting for another cycle of altitude gain. This all is a threesome coordinated step-towing using the essence of the novel launch method.

Eighth embodiment is to have four or more gliders tether-coupled similar to the sixth embodiment described above, but here the gliders would be at the vertices of a global polygon: square, pentagon, hexagon, hepagon, etc., n-gon, where each glider still has just two lines being collected at its tether-collecting device. During operation for launch to gain kited altitude, each glider collects two tethers; the result is that the n-gon of tether shrinks and each glider faces an apparent wind for use in kiting to a higher altitude. The same operation for step-towing for the n-gon may occur as development in the three-some and the two-glider arrangement.

We are not limited to the eight embodiments briefly described; those skilled in the arts will notice other variations and arrangements that use the fundamental novel launch method. In all embodiments, the gliders may de-couple from the global tether-coupling to enter free-flight; and in such free-flight the gliders may opt to re-couple and enter another cycle of use of the novel launch method. Further, the novel launch method could be used to enter various FFAWE flights where differential winds may be used to advantage for coupled soaring. Also, the novel launch method may be used to launch IFOs which are energy-production sailplanes as especially taught by Gabor Dobos.

*License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA for technology by Joe Faust under kPower, Inc. thresholds within Open-AWE Cooperative. ~~~~ JoeF
Non-profit recreation use of the novel method and experimenting with the novel method is open without royalty respect; commercial use of the novel method is to be negotiated with kPower, Inc. where thresholds trigger certain respects.

======================================


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16232 From: Rod Read Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method
Ace work Joe,
re 6th embodiment (triangle )
Do you imagine the collected motion more as a pumping jellyfishing ...all together in and up... glide back and repeat...(both neighbours pulled or released at any time)
or as rotary climb pull my upwind higher neighbour & release to my very downwind & lower going neighbour ... (either neighbours pulled or released at any time)
or other altogether?

I'd suggest as the polygon side count grows the shape or action of the glide device will likely change due to the relation between forward force proportion and sideways force toward neighbour .
All CC licensing as per Joe's recommendation

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16233 From: dave santos Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method
Another variant is two wings joined by an elastic tether sufficient to store enough energy for launching into usable wind shear. Both wings can even take off at the same time by somehow clawing apart then climbing toward each other. Thereafter, the elastic tether can store and release potential energy in cycling flight phases while working the shear zone.

This is the simplest mechanical means of self-powered flight with only wings and tethers; but limited by drag, mass, and low-capacity factors; so it would need strong sharp wind gradients to work well, and would be very tricky to master.

CC+ Open-AWE IP Pool


On Friday, November 28, 2014 1:48 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16234 From: dave santos Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Added Loadpaths to Swivel-linked Kite Leaders/ Anisotropic Kite Elem
For over a hundred years a fish line rigging method has been applied to rig kites on leader-lines connected to a main line by a Tri-Swivel. The method enables spider-like trains whose kite units cannot foul into Stuck-States. The topological limitation has been that only a tri-junction of loadpaths was possible. This was a severe constraint on kite meshes and 3D lattice design. A solution is embed multiple load-paths in a "darts" of load-bearing fabric on one or both sides of the tri-swivel (leaving the kite and leader the same). The kite cannot foul within membrane-embedded loadpaths, but clears itself just by its tri-swivel just as before.

Another application case is a membrane or net plane to prevent kite fouling. In this case the kite element flying on its swivel leader can only bump against its net-plane below; and not fall between loadpaths into a stuck-state. This may be the best way to host a pilot-lifter layer over an iso-mesh. To adapt to wind from any direction, each pilot kite weathercocks without stuck-states, while the host iso-mesh does not rotate (but only tilts its kixels).

A new concept direction is kite elements adapted to fully vertical or horizontal tethers created within 3D lattices (classic diagonal tether-angles are relegated to 3D lattice edge-conditions). The kites can take many recognizable forms, but the design novelty is a swiveling upper-leader or lateral leaders, to constrain kite elements to a vertical or horizontal line axis. Ohashi kite units already are workable in iso-lattices on lines set in any orientation, but the line connection can be optimized for maximum freedom of motion.

Heads-up to Rod to include these solutions in his 3D lattices, where some kite elements as shown would be prone to stuck states by looping around converging loadpaths without swivel protection. I'll be testing the new solutions for problems (like how much mesh-plane and leader a pilot-lifter tolerates, without excess mass or drag penalty.

CC+ Open-AWE IP Pool

Below- typical tri-swivel for fishing. The DIY version simply joins three single swivels with a ring link-



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16235 From: benhaiemp Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: AWE on French TV on 11/29/2014

FutureMag

 PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16236 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito

http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000026975510.pdf  

Priority Data:
TO2013A000322 22.04.2013 IT


WO/2014/174541 IMPROVED PULLEY FOR HIGH-EFFICIENCY WINCH

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16237 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito

Filed on same day was a distinct document:


http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/WO2014174542

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16238 From: dave santos Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Re: Improved Pulley, an application for a patent by Massimo Ippolito
JoeF,

Massimo's first patent version was longer in text and the second added more drawings. The confusion is a bit of comic venture theatre for the Dutch fund managers and Saudi investors. Massimo has lately publicly framed AWE as a pulley problem, when its really just his problem, for having prematurely down-selected a pulley-limited design (too many pulleys and stages). There is no expectation outside SABIC's circle that the pulley needed reinvention by Massimo (a software engineer). The modern pulley is already a highly perfected commodity, with thousands of years of refinement.

The Open-AWE path is to avoid excessive pulley stages and use modern belts or chains for millions of short-stroke pumping cycles. This is all COTS TRL-9 mega-scalable.  CC+ Open-AWE IP Pool

daveS

Cc: SABIC Ventures (hence message tail is included)-

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:21 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16239 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: *Arresting Loads or Damping by Kite System
*Arresting Loads or Damping Loads by Kite System
    ​Many operations requiring loads to be damped may use kite systems. For example, consider rapid pulling cargo out of cargo-carrying aircraft; as the loaded aircraft is yet rolling to launch again following removal of cargo pallets, hook the pallet to a tether that goes through pulleys an onward to kite systems specially designed to damp the load of dragging cargo off cargo aircraft.  Those skilled in the arts will notice many uses of kite systems arresting or damping loads.  In many instances the mass involved in the arresting or damping system could be vastly less than other arresting systems.
*​License:  ​
CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA  AWE IP Pool
~~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16240 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: *Arresting Loads or Damping by Kite System
Its a neat idea that one can drop large heavy cargos without parachutes, landing them softly; again and again. The scheme works without wind if the arrestor rigging is circle-towed aloft (to then resist the fall by "passive on-demand" aerodrag).This concept-space is related to our Aerotecture "Fall Tent" study (safety nets on inflatable pillars), and the fun idea of catching wing suit jumpers moving like flying squirrels from kite-to-kite (or line-to-). The simplest version is a single arrestor line above; that the falling load hooks on, to be slowed to a stop.

We have merely shifted a parachute unit or two of fabric, and some line, to create a unit kite arrestor, saving placing a parachute on every payload, greatly reducing costs. A kite allows creating a cheap deceleration platform set high enough to work nicely. The synergy is with fast high-efficiency transport planes, which are not able to land payloads without long runways or dedicated cargo parachutes. The inverse app is a kite-based lifter-catapult to send up large payloads to the transports.

CC+ Open-AWE IP POOL


On Monday, December 1, 2014 9:04 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16241 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

Doug Selsam starts topic hereon:

-------------------------------------------

Gravity powered aircraft flies with no fuel

 


Interesting how this article never actually tells how this goofy idea even works.  I remember a similar Crackpot press-release technology from around the same era, where one first lets buoyant gas out of a tank to bring a plane into the sky, then a compressor compresses the buoyant gas back into the tank, whereupon the now-heavy plane can glide to the ground.  Only thing these rocket-scientist/brain-surgeons seem to have missed is that you still have to power that compressor, which "just happens" to take exactly the same amount of supposedly "free" energy gained in the ascent.  I think this is known as the "no free lunch" principle.  Amazing how supposedly-educated people can go on with stuff like this that violates the laws of physics, yet look how many other gullible Professor Crackpots cannot discern the breach of high-school-level physics.  Gizmag itself seemed unable to even flag it as "crackpot hype".  One wonders how many of today's AWE schemes similarly "miss the point" or "miss the boat" or "miss the mark", only to be revealed, at some point, as crackpot hype.  Like whalebumps and "global warming", this discredited scheme would seem to have found a permanent home in the crackpot dustbin of history.

~ DougS

=========================


Moderator link set:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16242 From: dave santos Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?
Doug,

The double "flaw" is that this neither a crackpot case* nor an AWES topic. Such articles are to sell advertising to youth demographics, and are unworthy of serious engineering concern.

This is actually an old idea in airship design that does not quite qualify as crack-pot*, as the physics of variable buoyancy is valid, but uneconomic. "Where is it today", you ask? The concept lives on at JPL Planetary Robotics and for endurance deep-sea research. The 21st century is not over, so the article's cautious timeframe has not run out

Give the disturbed Professor Crackpot idee-fixe a rest. Find something positive to post, to live up to your claims,

daveS


* See "crackpot index" psychological profile for what really counts as crackpot. Here is the underwater version of the airship case (airships naturally boost forward progress a bit, by working buoyancy potentials)-

 


On Tuesday, December 2, 2014 1:36 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16243 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

DougS comments hereon:

++++++++++++++++++++

DaveS noted: "This is...an old idea in airship design that does not...qualify as crack-pot*, as the physics of variable buoyancy is valid," ^^^

DougS replies:  Not so, Professor.  It is one more perpetual motion scheme, where instead of magnets or weights on a wheel, it uses air bladders and the atmosphere, to "wish" that one could somehow "magically" get more energy back, than one pumps in, to influence buoyancy.  Perpetual travel, using no energy, from any source, Mmmm Hmmmm....

It is amazing how many people will fall for perpetual motion schemes:  The professor says: "I've found a way to do work, without doing any work!"  That's "perpetual motion."

Think I'm wrong?  OK explain where the energy for travel comes from in this case then.
Sure, variable buoyancy is a valid concept.  Of course submarines vary buoyancy.  But, it's NOT a valid perpetual motion or energy capture concept, otherwise submarines would not need engines.  (hello?)  

(Exercise: Explain why submarines need engines, if they can control buoyancy.)

Distinctions like that separate the whacky crackpots, where no standards apply, and anything sounds valid (like a blimp lifting a heavy weight in the vacuum of Mars) , from those with two feet on the ground, who adhere to the known principles of physics.

So, my good professor, this has been one more case where "everything you post is wrong".  Trying to argue with everything I post almost guarantees that, by the way.

DaveS stated: "
Doug, The double "flaw" is that this neither a crackpot case* nor an AWES topic." 

DougS replies: ^^^ Wrong again.  More on-topic than dogs chasing balls, as a start.  Blimps traveling around the world using no fuel would fall DIRECTLY into AWE by the (lack of) standards stated over and over by you and Joe, where basically anything under the sun counts as wind energy, including, according to you, fuel saved when jets happen to fly with the wind.

So, my good professor, once again you have been fooled by another crackpot, and once again, almost everything you post is wrong.

By the way, MOST crackpot ideas are NOT perpetual motion - those are just the low-hanging crackpot fruit, and you, Mr. AWE Expert, STILL fell for it.

~~~~ DougS

=============================================



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16244 From: christopher carlin Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?
Dear Doug,

Although I agree there is no free lunch note that the concept has been demonstrated by a transatlantic submarine trip using the same principle in water. I think you must run the numbers.

Regards,

Chris
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16245 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method

Yes, Rod, variant actions would include your suggested jellyfish pumping.   Thanks.

Yes, DaveS, the tether may be with large elasticity when wanted for niche solutions.


Artists are invited to illustrated the new flight method using images of paired aircraft type of their choosing. 
Consider using two matching aircraft from your favorite manufacturer.


Furthering: The novel flight method intends a choice of placement of the winch: The placement may be in one wing element or two wing elements or in all of the wing elements of an n-gonal arrangement. Also, the winch may be in mid-tether for niche solutions using the novel flight method; the winch also might be held in midair by a kite system or LTA kytoon system or LTA balloon; in such cases two branches of the intended tether could be captured by involved gliders in order to get ready for the novel flight action phase.    We add these things to the license announced in this discussion thread, which reference for commercial operations.     ~ JoeF



https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energykitesystems.net%2FNovelLaunchMethod%2FSailplaneSailplaneNFM.jpg&t=1564516394&sig=isqlWkpW.zvlQdPrAXmpzg--~E

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16246 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Fall Protection by Kite Systems
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16247 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method
​Many sorts of world records may derive from the new flight method (NFM). 

  • Who will first demonstrate a drone climb to 1000 ft AGL using a two-wing launch from ground using the NFM?​

  • Which two humans will pilot their wings in a two-wing system using the NFM to 1000 ft AGL?  Maybe two hang glider wings each piloted by someone? 

  • Who will first demonstrate the NFM using slack-the-line-then-glide-out-then-re-kite cycle for a second step for climbing further?

  • Cross-country traveling distance records?  Rule: Allow a fixed amount of fuel stored in two wings coupled for NFM; the NFM system kites up and aims to travel far. The two pilots try various tactics of staying coupled by tether or by releasing and recoupling for re-kiting along the route. Both wings must reach far points  able, if given fuel, to use NFM again. By efficient use of soaring methods and the NFM, a system would travel for record distance using the fixed limited fuel. 
  • Who will be the first hang glider pilot to use NFM paired with an uninhabited canopy kite wing to launch off land (or water for another record) where the canopy kite is then feathered and brought on board while soaring for possible second use of same method after landing?
  • Who will be the first solo sailplane pilot or glider pilot to use NFM paired with a canopy kite wing to launch off land or water, gather the paired feathered canopy kite wing, soar, and then while still in free flight, set out the tethered canopy kite wing again with long tether and then performed another cycle of powered winching using NFM?

  • Who will first demonstrate electricity production by having the NFM arranged so that two coupled gliders mine glide-apart tension to charge a battery on board?  Such would be distinct from RATs placed directly on board each wing. 

  • Etc.   Various NFM world records are invited to be described. 
Furthering: 
​Notice that in some niche arenas, the NFM may use a ribbon tether. 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16248 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?
Doug,

Your latest random (non-AWE) target for undeserved and mentally-unbalanced ridicule, Robert Hunt, clearly does not match  Wikipedia's crackpot profile. Yes, he's a bit eccentric, but has a solid career engineering background, has been successful in inventing and business, and is clearly works with others productively.

Chris Carlin is once again right, variable buoyancy across a thermal gradient is well established, and the US Navy is the top adopter. Similarly, the JPL scientists who study ballooning for exo-planetary science missions are on solid ground, since our Earth high-altitude balloons routinely operate at Martian atmospheric pressures (
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16249 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Airborne Thermal Energy
Its not a new idea to harness the sky thermal gradient as a heat-engine, but there is a lot still to ponder. All free-flying endurance balloons rise and fall with the daily thermal cycle, and we are considering enhancing and tapping this natural motion. Even if this power source never finds large application, it will continue to evolve in sport and scientific ballooning. Atmospheric thermal gradient energy is very diffuse. Strong wind, where AWES will thrive, will limit thermal operations. Thermal is therefore most suited for calm conditions; with solar boosting a very desirable condition. 

The most basic scheme is an insulated solar-balloons, which tend to have a clear window sunlight absorptive side and an aluminized reflective side, to reject sunlight. By turning the balloon, the rising and falling is controllable. Graphene and aerogel promise revolutionary performance gains. A tether to the ground would enable tapping thermal cycles for energy. Hunt and many others have studied tapping ocean thermal gradients by similar schemes (without the solar boost) of buoys shuttling up and down; pumping tethers to the surface.

The wildest airborne thermal stunt would be to someday capture a thunderstorm in a bag. Harvesting water from cumulus clouds could be the killer app, with power a byproduct. The equatorial ITCZ is poorly suited to conventional AWE thinking, but may constitute the ultimate airborne thermal energy resource. There are also AWE-thermal hybrids possible, and thermal effects are already considerable in large soft kites. (Lynn and Gomberg have observed their "world record" kites spontaneously floating in desert sunlight during wind lulls).

CC+ Open-AWE IP Pool


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16250 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Spider silk

Spider silk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16251 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: HAXLR8R AWES "Lean Hardware" Unicorn

Early Heads-Up: Rod, CarlGu, and a few others are seeking a HAXLR8R position for Open-AWE. As this goes forward, we will be bring in our existing China-US players (like NTK, Pryde, etc.) with HAX's supply-chains and hungry hardware start-ups.

Creating "Hardware Unicorns" is the declared HAXLR8R goal-



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16252 From: Joe Faust Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Novel Flight Method
Furthering:
*NFM (one acronym for the subject novel flight method)
may include the following embodiments:
Launch from land or water may occur during winds; a cross-wind
arrangement may work well in some winds.
One arrangement is to fist regularly classically kite a wing set;
have long free tether to the wing set; then at ground or water level
attach an uninhabited or inhabited wing to the tether; release the
classic anchor and let be the NFM residue system; then at will have
the winch in the lower wing drive a shortening of the long tether in
order climb off the ground or water; the upper wing set may act as
anchor to the winching process if balances are well managed. Upon
gaining altitude there may be noticed ambient winds being different
for the upper wing set compared to the ambient winds for the lower
wing; FFAWE soaring disciplines may then play in conjunction with the
NFM. Staying coupled to the upper first wing set or not would be an
operations decision. One scenario would be to enter long-term FFAWE
flight even for energy production for potential energy or/and energy
for sharing with loads immediately.
~ JoeF
*License: CC+ 4.x BY NC+ SA for technology by Joe Faust under kPower,
Inc. thresholds within Open-AWE Cooperative. As one approaches the
commercial-use thresholds, please negotiate with kPower, Inc. for fair
required respects.
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?
Chris Carlin said: "I agree there is no free lunch note that the concept has been demonstrated by a transatlantic submarine trip using the same principle in water. I think you must run the numbers."
***Doug replies: Check out hunt's website, named "fuelless flight":

Chris, you might as well substitute "foolish" for "fuelless", since by definition, and by simple physics, any perceived "free" energy received has to first be input by compression.  Sure, you can watch a submarine in a heavier-than-water condition glide downward for a time until it can't go any lower.  At that point you will have to use JUST AS MUCH energy as you thought you had gained, to pump air into chambers, or pump water out, however you want to look at it, to get back to the surface.  Net result: no free lunch, you did not avoid paying for fuel.  It turns out to be just one more way to use energy to travel.  Same with a blimp version:  Sure, you can pretend to "travel for free" starting with a blimp in a lighter-than-air condition,  once you reach max altitude, you will then expend as much energy to compress enough air to get back down as you thought you had gained "for free".  When it comes to perpetual motion schemes, the only numbers you really need to run are energy-in and energy-out.  If "energy-out" is more than "energy-in" in the absence of energy capture, you have perpetual motion.

~ DougS

==========================



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16254 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: JPL Planetary Balloons and Inflatable Robots
There is high value for AWES tech in studying NASA's intellectual explorations of planetary robotics. The need for space probes to generate renewable energy in distant hostile environments with a minimum of mass and maximum reliability is the "right stuff". Note that most JPL mission-related soft-goods ideas, and many similar cases, date back many decades; but continue advancing in both theory and capability (anyone with good ideas can help these days). NASA LTA will likely explore other worlds in our lifetimes, and AWES R&D will draw considerable advanced soft-good systems knowledge from the NASA research-


===================

Disclaimer: My AWES R&D thinking is still colored by fond memories of JPL NASA (and Roskosmos) Planetary Robotics (controls, multi-sensing) and (thin-film AE) Balloons experiences and connections.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16255 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?

DougS replies hereon:

____________________


DaveS said  "Doug, Your latest random (non-AWE) target for undeserved and mentally-unbalanced ridicule, Robert Hunt, clearly does not match  Wikipedia's crackpot profile. Yes, he's a bit eccentric..."

Doug Replies:  Hey Dave!  Earth to DaveS... Hey Dave, guess what?  I don't need to know ANYTHING about the promoter of a perpetual motion scheme to know it is a crackpot idea.  This farce has been making the internet rounds for ten (10) years, and has been amply debunked.  (BTW, your Wikipedia definition was for "Cranks", not "crackpots", but you fit the definition, either way...)

What I am showing is that your previous posts saying:
1) You are an "AWE expert", and:
2) "AWE experts are not fooled by crackpot hype"
are BOTH 100% wrong.

You are now defending exactly that: Crackpot Hype.  No question about it.  Perpetual motion such as "fuelless flight" is a POSTER CHILD of a crackpot idea.  You not only fell for "crackpot hype", but even when it has been explained, still don't "get it".  You're still defending it!  Why not do a mental health profile on this guy now, rather than understand simple physics?  Change the subject.  That is how your mind works - "style over substance", "don't confuse me with the facts", in your endless "fight for ignorance".  Well good luck.  Maybe someday you will be victorious and pure ignorance and universal gullibility will prevail.

Perpetual-motion schemes usually depart from reality at the point where they introduce something just a teeny bit hard to understand, like magnets.  In this case the crux of the deception is air pressure and the energy of compression.  Whether it's air pressure or magnets, perpetual motion schemes will always be subject to debunking by those who can actually understand the physics.  How do I know this?  I went to college.  But actually I already knew it from high school.  Key feature: getting work done with no discernable energy input.  Good luck being an AWE "expert".   Funny.  At least you tell a good joke.  Without even trying!  :)

"AWE exthpertth don't fall for crackpot hype"  Sure Dave, sure... :)
~~DougS
=================


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Airborne Thermal Energy

DougS comments hereon:

-====================


DaveS said: "Its not a new idea to harness the sky thermal gradient as a heat-engine, but there is a lot still to ponder"


***Doug replies: Off topic?  I thought you said this is off-topic.  Make up your mind.  Why are you posting something that you just said is off-topic?  

You have these little technicalities that you pull out from "where the sun don't shine", anytime you need an escape hatch from your fight for ignorance, but you left the hatch door ajar - now it is YOU who is off-topic by your own stated standard.   

And nobody said anything about a thermal gradient anyway.  We're talking about perpetual motion, "fuelless flight" by compressing gas, which takes energy.  Whatever the diversion, no diversion is too trivial for you to use in a pretense of being "in control" of every conversation.  You flag everything from spelling mistakes, to jokes you think are off-color, to people being "off-topic" while you and Joe post on ANY and EVERY topic under the sun, claiming "service animals" are relevant, but if, and only if, you and Joe SAY they are on topic.  

I'm reminded of the "Daily Motivator" (Ralph Marston) offered by Joe a few days ago explaining how possibilities are unlimited, yet it doesn't matter, since what matters is what you can achieve, not just acknowledging millions of unlimited "possibilities", which it said is a meaningless endeavor.  

If there is ANYONE who should read that every day, it is JoeF himself, the King of brainstorming the unlimited possibilities with no limit and no standards of even relevance, let alone workability.  That is where, no, sorry, dogs chasing tennis balls is not relevant.  It is off-topic.  

And Professor Crackpot's latest 10-year-old, widely-debunked, perpetual motion idea is just that, perpetual motion, well-known to be the province of crackpots.  This is not that complicated.  The fact that you can't even UNDERSTAND that it is crackpot hype is similar to you not being able to balance units on both sides of an equation.  Both fall into the category of being not-up-to-speed on current, conventional, well-understood basic knowledge, which is the crux of being a "crank", according to the definition you offered a few days ago.  So I guess by providing that definition, you are showing that you are a crank.  Nice job.  :)

~~~~ DougS

======================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16257 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Professor Crackpot 2004: Where is it today? The flaw?
Doug overlooks that an airship working a thermal gradient is but a simple heat-engine, long understood as such (some proposed variations are over a century old), and that the use of "fuel-less" is this context is just as proper as equivalent wind or solar power usage.

 ChrisC is the real-deal expert here, and Doug is very confused.


On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:31 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 16258 From: dave santos Date: 12/3/2014
Subject: Re: Airborne Thermal Energy
Doug,

My off-topic complaint is about your troubled "Professor Crackpot" obsession, which is no substitute for a lack of workable AWE ideas.

There is no problem with this new thermal energy topic making valid connections between AWE and airborne heat-engine effects (which you failed to do),

daveS

PS The one documented "perpetual motion fallacy" in AWE circles is your ongoing insistence that HTA flight can be maintained with "zero power".


On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:15 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com