Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES15400to15449 Page 203 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15401 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: RAD Progress Styles and Means

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15402 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15403 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15404 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15405 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15406 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Reporting wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15407 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Reporting wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15408 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Reporting wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15409 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: "Novel Kite"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15410 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor kite-lifted "Coaxial multi-turbine generator" by Ha

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15411 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Asbjorn Strand associated with Prototech. Norway

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15412 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Robert E. SALOMON

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15413 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Korrmann

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15414 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: HENSBERG FRIEDRICH [DE], circa 1995

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15415 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: DE4319823 (A1) ― 1994-12-22

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15416 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Gunter Hofgen

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15417 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: DE2437003 (A1) ― 1976-02-12 ZEIDLER WILLI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15418 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: GUNTHER NIESSEN Circa 1998. NL

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15419 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15420 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15421 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15422 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] DE2437003 (A1) ― 1976-02-12 ZEIDLER WILLI

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15423 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15424 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15425 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15426 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15427 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Interesting article on another perpetual "newborn baby"... :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15428 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15429 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15430 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Interesting article on another perpetual "newborn baby"... :)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15431 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15432 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15433 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15434 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15435 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15436 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15437 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15438 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15439 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Kite System Marionette Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15440 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: fast motion transfer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15441 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Kite System Marionette Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15442 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Study of WO2014109917A1 by Leonid Goldstein, circa 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15443 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: fast motion transfer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15444 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Sucking up and moving leaves

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15445 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Kite System Marionette Operations

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15446 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: fast motion transfer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15447 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15448 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Sucking up and moving leaves

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15449 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: WO2014105396 by Leonid Goldstein, circa 2012



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15400 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Per PierreB and RodR, perhaps: 

For takeoff do the spin by the ground travel of the anchor winches; then once flying and global flight spinning, have PTO occurring.

Abstracting a bit: rotor with ring at ground; PTO at ground ring. Isotropic flying mesh spinning is the rotor. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15401 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: RAD Progress Styles and Means

RAD may be bolstered by various styles of progress and use of various means. Some particular way may fit one person or team while not fitting another person or team.  This topic thread invites some highlighting options in means and styles of making progress toward giving the world effective AWES at some scale in this or that niche. 


============


Starting:

Here is something from a "now" instructor Ralph Marston: 

http://greatday.com/cgi-bin/X10/video.pl?3984b09G756v

See in replay how such suggestion might lead to a style and means of RAD. 


=======

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15402 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Also keep in mind circle-towing the mesh (without rotation) to launch and maintain aloft without wind. Then it could do everything.  In wind, the dome would rock crosswind to drive anchor motor-gens.

A multi-stage option is to lift a WECS dome under the pilot-lifter dome (only when usable wind exists). The pilot-lifter stage could then launch solo and fly in lighter wind than all-up mode.


On Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:21 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15403 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15404 From: Rod Read Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

The pilot-lifter stage could then launch solo and fly in lighter wind than all-up mode.
I guess that describes what I drew... From each lift or collected lift point you could also hoist a wecs.

As a spinning isotropic, I think it's kinda novel, yet slightly reminiscent of Pierre's wheelwind scheme. So
CC4.0 NC BY SA

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15405 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Never mind Gordon's grim Torque Law. More trouble with spinning a giant isotropic net (spin-chute, wheel-wind, daisy, etc.) is that gravity progressively deforms it as its mass only grows faster in proportion to larger dimension.

It gets worse: the wind field most-probable-velocity profile remains constant by altitude, so a scaled-up kite does not get the required added power, and at some point cannot even fly, unless a hurricane-force wind comes along.

Early AWES must thrive in the wind allowed us, in accordance with scaling laws. Scaling limits are true dead-ends. Engineering awareness of real limits separates the naive from the savvy in AWE.


On Thursday, October 16, 2014 2:24 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15406 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Reporting wind

An AWES is to be operated. Experiment or full-in-service operation scene. What is the the wind's velocity?

Standard 10 m AGL upwind of the intended AWES flight?  Speed and direction! Measured or calculated from remote data?

What else? Else specify scene and then give the wind. Perhaps specify measured wind at 2 m AGL near launch. Perhaps describe the actual measured local wind gradient. Or measured ambient wind at flown-wind altitude.  Or measured apparent wind over the working tethered airfoil. 


Just "10 m/s"  does not supply enough information. Scene and direction is needed. Scene includes the clock/date time.  When, where, how much, what direction, AND perhaps a texture or gustiness measure.  And, richly the rate of change of the situation?  Knowing wind right at a certain point in time in a particular scene may be interesting, but the rate of change of the measures for coming moment awareness may be specially useful. 


What else?


~ JoeF   
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15407 From: dave santos Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Reporting wind
Some working assumptions-

A given AWES wind rating is presumed to correspond to the location of the working part (eg. rotor), with apparent wind disregarded. 

In normal wind there is constant variation. Outdoor values are always averages (wind tunnels are a relative exception).

Wind fields are complex objects. Realistic wind values are statistical and uncertain. An average value does not capture most dynamics.

A full time-domain model is the ideal "wind report".


On Thursday, October 16, 2014 4:29 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15408 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Reporting wind
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15409 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: "Novel Kite"

CN203540061 (U)  -  Novel kite

SONG ZHIPENG

2014-04-16

Filed in 2013.
CHINA patent office


Solar panel on face of tethered wing

LED lighting on wing

Line wheel has display to show result datA of line tension sensor. 

Night flying is permitted with the lighted wing. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15410 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor kite-lifted "Coaxial multi-turbine generator" by Ha
Rudy Harburg or Rudolph W. Harburg
instructed an earlier item: 
Kite with self induced dihedral adjustable keel and stabilizing sail turbines
US 5011099 A  
Patent US5011099 - Kite with self induced dihedral adjustable keel and stabilizing sail turbines

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15411 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Asbjorn Strand associated with Prototech. Norway

Patent WO2010064918A1 - Energy conversion system
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15412 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Robert E. SALOMON

US4335093 (A) ― 1982-06-15

Robert E. Salomon


Process of converting wind energy to elemental hydrogen and apparatus therefor  

Espacenet - Bibliographic data

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15413 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Korrmann

Espacenet - Bibliographic data

Hydraulische Drachen Kraftübertragungsanlage mit Spitzenlastglättung und Noteinholung 

Applicant: KORRMANN VOLKER [DE]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15414 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: HENSBERG FRIEDRICH [DE], circa 1995

Self-regulating wind power plant  


Page bookmarkEspacenet - Bibliographic data

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15415 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: DE4319823 (A1) ― 1994-12-22

MIELKE SIEGFRIED DR [DE]

Alternative use of wind power by means of guided lifting surfaces


Page bookmarkEspacenet - Bibliographic data

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15416 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: Gunter Hofgen
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15417 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: DE2437003 (A1) ― 1976-02-12 ZEIDLER WILLI

GROSSWINDKRAFTWERK MIT PERIODISCH ARBEITENDEN GROSSEN TRAGFLUEGELBALLONEN 

DE2437003 (A1) ― 1976-02-12  ZEIDLER WILLI


[[Attention, arch followers ]]
Filed: 1974Espacenet - Bibliographic data

 

Clip here is not linked. Above link for full document. 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15418 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: GUNTHER NIESSEN Circa 1998. NL

Espacenet - Bibliographic data
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15419 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/16/2014
Subject: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

HYUN IK GUN [KR]

Circa 2004

Page bookmarkEspacenet - Bibliographic data

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15420 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02
Hey Joe
Thanks for all the fish - er um I mean links...  :)
I wonder if I could prevail upon you to include a brief description to these links, such as "an early kite-reeling patent", so a reader can determine whether it's worth their time to take a look at the reference.  Sometimes I find my system unable to click on a link and see the result.  It means I have to open a new browser and cut-paste the link - takes a lot of time.
Also, if you could keep the remarks accurate, such as "a kite with a bent spar supporting a downwind pinwheel display at each end", rather than an inaccurate redefinition as a "coaxial multi-rotor turbine", would be helpful as well.
I like staying up to date on what is happening on this list, but it can also be a huge drain of otherwise productive time.
Thanks
:)
Doug
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15421 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02
Doug,

Keep in mind that you claim to keep secret your best AWE concepts, out of pure self interest. Otherwise your posts ask for personal favors or raise distractive complaints that most apply to your own track record (eg. "no news"). It looks as if your claim of having secret AWE solutions is a bluff, given your overall poor attitude.

Recall you recently insulted JoeF when you mistakenly presumed he had not covered ST prior art promptly and diligently (2009). Its not like your patent searching was ever shared with the world like Joe has, but only served your personal desire for a government-enforced monopoly. No one else here has ever "worshiped" government power to the extent you have, in embracing patents.

Its not like you answer requests consistently (for example, how you "overcame" Rudy's patent for a "coaxial multi-rotor turbine", which seems to be the essential ST inventive leap ),

daveS


On Friday, October 17, 2014 8:00 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15422 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] DE2437003 (A1) ― 1976-02-12 ZEIDLER WILLI


This seems to be a mega kite arch concept (kytoon arch). It would be nice if Willi is still alive and game to see progress :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15423 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?

Not bad for a famous Dave S DOOMED YOU'RE ALL DOOMED! speech.

I notice the careful "mass only grows faster in proportion to larger dimension." As being soft it would scale exactly as the mass of a Mothra would. In fact having raised nodal lifters you could probably pack in more lift surface per the same span  and weight using this method if the lifters were single skin and at alternate higher and lower setting over the mesh.

Gordon doesn't have a torque law remember.

Won't fly ... at what scale Dave? What not even with the possibility of lift assist this has? Or what about with the possibility of stacking?

At least it'll work in water to the scale of the ocean.... if only we could possibly tap that.

Early AWES must thrive in the wind allowed us,    (Oh this is great! and what about with the budget scale allowed us and the size of field allowed us or the time scale to develop allowed us?)
Engineering awareness of real limits separates the naive from the savvy in AWE. No Shit Sherlock

I hate that word savvy recently as an aside.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15424 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Rod,

What really excites me here is the modelling of an airborne dome mesh with numerous active aerodynamic units (as dots), which for the first time (that I know) digitally simulates a gigawatt AWES concept physics (rather than just depicting an artist's concept). Keep in mind that Ohashi kixels can create lift along the radial tethers, and that its not too early to grade the lines according to fan-in loadings (the star-points might be bridle sections of intermediate grade).

A KLG theorem is that bulk rotation becomes increasingly poor power basis at larger scales, fundamentally since rpm goes down, with decreasing transmission efficiency. There is also the severe defect of return-side (upwind) drag loss, and weakened power on the downwind side (by lower apparent wind) as well. Only the crosswind sections of the circle can really work hard.

What you are left with is rocking the dome crosswind (including vertical heaving) to pump at the anchors, as the superior mode. The trick to simulate a rocking dome of tacking kite units is to veer the wind back and forth. An animation loop can be created, and a sequence of raising and lowering WECS stages can be computed and also made into a synched-loop (at lower Hz), and thus a very impressive concept animation can be built (all-modes would be a tour-de-force).

A final descriptive touch would be to depict a large city far underneath (if you dare), or to the side, for a visual scale reference (keep the kixels as dots, with low solidity. Hardly have any AWES depictions yet expressed the vast system scale required to power civilization. Small discrete AWES units, like most teams are focused on, simply do not address a planetary-scale energy crisis,

daveS


On Thursday, October 16, 2014 3:24 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15425 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Rod,

Note that "rag and string" is QUASI-2D-1D, so scaling limits eventually kick-in (by luck the tropopause is in reach). Its fully 3D kiteplanes and flygens (and conductors) that scale the worst (big flygens have a thermal scaling issue as well).

As we scale our rope load-path structures, we have to add heavier bridles. Otherwise, local path-loadings and wingloadings (kixel gr/m2) remain constant,

daveS


On Friday, October 17, 2014 12:05 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15426 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
"No Shit Sherlock...I hate that word savvy recently as an aside." *** Yeah and how 'bout "grim", and starting every other sentence with "Sadly...", etc.?  (As in "Sadly, I'm a complete nincompoop".)   :)  You only have to read the first couple of words to know which nutcase is posting... Then again with only 3 people posting, you could just flip a 3-sided coin and hit it more often than "the world's greatest minds" can come up with a reliable, economical, AWE system that actually works, which seems to be "never"...  :O........................................

(3-sided coin? he he - don't ask!)  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15427 From: dougselsam Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Interesting article on another perpetual "newborn baby"... :)
Helium Hokum: Why Airships Will Never Be Part of Our Transportation Infrastructure | Guest Blog, Scientific American Blog Network
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15428 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Doug,

Without doubt,isotropic Kite Meshes are a very savvy AWES concept, based on TRL-9 kites and rigging, and sound theoretic scaling merits. Scale-model testing is active and promising. Gordon's "grim Torque Law" is only grim for those who based an AWES down-select (patent or venture) on torque-transmission (being willfully stuck with worst weight-to-power and areodrag).

Please respect the "family-language" professional standard, and try to provide creative technical value in posting. Off-forum posting is forced to be hyperactive, because the Forum is sadly degraded by persistent abusive Netiquette. If you really want to see academia (and most pros) posting here, just show more professional courtesy,

daveS


On Friday, October 17, 2014 12:22 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15429 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Thanks Dave,
Assume we go for sway of the net instead of spinning the net...
(even though rpm isn't an issue ... we're concerned with the rpm of the generator part not the rotor.) I concede with spinning that yes the upwind going part would incur twist in the net partly shrinking it's diameter (hardly noticed with a larger outer diameter tethering ring)  and therefore ability to transfer torque efficiently ...

ok swaying.
In previous swaying models I've animated, it was suggested that a stack of large kites would sway using the outer edges of the bottom kite to pull generators ....

what if instead of the bottom we use the top... e.g.

underneath a lifting net net similar to the one animated above... under the nodes are swivels... under each swivel a spar.... Under the spar a stack of small rigidised kites spaced inside a tri tether frame running down to another spar just above a ground actuator.
So if each ground actuator over a grid says fly figure 8... each stack of rigidised kites under the net flies figure 8... in quite neat sync too...
But crucially does it take the net fast enough to drive a generator from net edge tethering ?.... (not fully, I think a lot of the pull goes to ground.) 
A taught net under a dome net with the space filled by tri tether rigidised units would work like above... but would need lots of long tethering on a high altitude net.

Hows about just spinning the net closer to the downwind going side of the ground ring... thereby the tethering stretches out the upwind going side a bit more & it keeps driving..

Glad you liked the model... not claiming it's by any means accurate ...
go on then I'd like to see your rocking animation. (won't work like that this time... would have to change the legs from being multi spring like segments to direct point linked catenary lines length functioned by a distance factor) bloody tricks anyway, fancy nonsense, a physical model is what's needed next. A simple triangular one with three lifters would do... soon as I get mine I will.

Doug, weiner.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15430 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Interesting article on another perpetual "newborn baby"... :)
The author is far behind AWES Forum technical understanding of the same problem (LTA), and does not even mention AWE, but does assert crude optimism for the kite-

"...Normal kids discover kites and leave toy balloons behind. They learn to make use of sticks, paper, string, and the moving air to make things go up, up, and away without the complexity of finding a circus—and without the inevitable disappointment of the toy balloon, which quickly looses its umph and eventually sits dead on the floor. Happily, kites provide a universal satisfaction, and they can even be made to fly when there is no wind, simply by running..."


On Friday, October 17, 2014 12:50 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15431 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Guided alongside and up each "leg" tether toward the point of the mesh drawn above... add a control line for multiple drive kite (small rigidised) surfaces held in the proposed mesh faces... control line adjusts sheeting as necessary for down going and up going as loop is run.
...
my contribution to whole posting set cc4.0 nc by sa

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15432 From: Rod Read Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
only kidding... or was I?
http://youtu.be/_XKfh_JVwdc

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15433 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Web shaking
A crazy spider shaking its web.    37 sec video

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15434 From: dave santos Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
bingo :)

Now the trick is a PTO line network to the center-point with inherent "high load-velocity" (Loyd), aka "fast-motion-transfer" (Goldstein). The "Holy Grail" is to match the native load velocity at the generator to the native load velocity of the mesh motion, such that a high-ratio step-up transmission is not needed. Tri-tether junctions (rigger's triangle) can do velocity fining at a tiny fraction of the capital cost (and flying-mass) of gearing.

Most of this concept space is standing CC IP, with CC 4.x being applied to new details. It helps that Rod must come up with his own variants from a fresh perspective, rather than comb thru the massive AWE IP Defensive Disclosures of isotropic meshes. We should tend to converge toward optimality.


On Friday, October 17, 2014 2:00 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15435 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Can an isotropic mesh kite spin?
Yes, you were kidding... :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15436 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15437 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Patents/Korea/KR20060036871/KR20060036871clip1.jpg

The single image clipped from the three page patent is converted to a jpeg image for ease of access.

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15438 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02
Hi Joe:  We in wind have become accustomed to enjoying colorful and whimsical displays of Korean wind energy technology at the annual Windpower AWEA conferences.  After all the boring, same-old-same-old, working technology, they provide a little entertainment, levity, or comic relief.
I looked at the scratchy picture (3rd PDF link you provided - thanks) and my interpretation is that we're looking at a kite-reeling system using a balloon to keep it airborne.  The two squiggely lines to the left are power lines.  The round blob above is the balloon.  The half-a-potato-shaped blob is a kite.  The triangle is the bridle.  The straight line is the tether, and the rectanglular-shape is the reeling mechanism, and the small dark oval is the pivot.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15439 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Kite System Marionette Operations

Following is licensed: CC 4.x BY NC SA by Joe Faust into kPower AWES IP Pool


Use kite systems to operate large and small marionettes, puppets, and other display figures in the open sky or even letting some of the marionettes, etc. touch the ground from time to time.

~ JoeF

Inspired by the following patent that teaches the use of powered UAS for similar service.

Patent US20140231590 - Aerial display system with marionettes articulated and supported by airborne devices
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15440 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: fast motion transfer
I was curious to check out Leo Goldstein's notion of "fast motion transfer".
He gets a goldstar compared to the rest of the brain-dead kite-reelers, for noticing that fast is good, but what he proposes looks to me like a watered-down, wannabe, single-kite version of laddermill, throwing away the steady-state operation and the power of multiple kites, in lieu of a single kite and intermittent operation.  Seems like throwing away at least 95% of the potential power, like disabling 7 cylinders in your V-8 engine, but worse.
I'd say, with regard to "The Wright Brothers", when multiple teams understood the basic form of what would actually work, we're still witnessing the "humping, pumping, hopping umbrella sleighride" stage of "throwing spaghetti at the wall", not yet at the point where any spaghetti actually sticks to the wall.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15441 From: dougselsam Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Kite System Marionette Operations
Hey Joe: I spotted a disposable shopping bag floating about 100 feet over the freeway the other day.  (dust devil?) I couldn't help but think of you.  "According to JoeF", I thought, "I'm witnessing an Airborne Wind Energy System".  After all, technically-speaking, as Joe likes to explain, it does take "some energy" to keep that bag aloft.  So I submit one more "branch", or whatever you call it, of "AWECS": lightweight plastic bags accidentally blown aloft.
Next topic: blowing leaves...  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15442 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Study of WO2014109917A1 by Leonid Goldstein, circa 2013

(WO2014109917) AIRBORNE WIND ENERGY SYSTEM 

Leonid Goldstein

For ease, a clip summary of drawings in the small (see original document via above link for full drawing)

http://www.energykitesystems.net/LeoGoldstein/WO2014109917A1Goldstein.JPG

  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15443 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: fast motion transfer

Before shorting Leo Goldstein, be sure to look at ALL his patent applications. Many.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15444 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Sucking up and moving leaves

Following is licensed: CC 4.x BY NC SA by Joe Faust into kPower AWES IP Pool


Instead of blowing leaves about properties,

consider using kite systems to suck up the leaves and placing the leaves into a remote composting place. This is part of a general branch of AWES that drive vacuuming systems to move materials, perhaps sand, toxic dumped materials, radioactive materials, grain, harvested fruit, insects, manufactured goods, water for various uses, etc.  The kite system in one embodiment formats the wind's energy to cause a working vacuum machine directly; another means would be to have the kite system generate electricity to drive a vacuuming machine.


PS: Inspired by the urge from Selsam of US Windlabs where he proposed blowing leaves.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15445 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Kite System Marionette Operations
Fortunately, Martin Bondestam (and to a lesser extent a few other kiters) has extensively explored kite-based marionette shows over a long period.

As for the use of quadcopters to do aerial puppets, the Austin Robot Group was flying an early quadcopter (~1990) as part of school shows based on LTA puppetismo, but the quad did not have much payload capacity to create strong character with (given ni-cad batteries, mechanical gyros, etc.), but it can be asserted that it was an obvious idea to us, even with marginal lift.

Its a bit unnerving to see Disney trying to patent an entire genre of airborne art, but comforting that our creative circles have prior art to limit the threat.


On Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:08 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15446 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: fast motion transfer
Doug seems to overlook that Loyd decades-ago specifically identified fast load velocity as an AWES desirement (and Payne had already patented fast-motion schemes not identified as such), Lang-Hadzicki, KLG and then documented simpler designs before Leo's patent filings (kPower actually demoed fast load-motion in several flavors). A large ST is an example of slow load-motion, since the driveshaft only turns very slowly in proportion to its high-speed potential (no "gold star").

Its a default presumption that single-layer kite AWES can stack kites, so its not justified to insult Leo for not mentioning every obvious enhancement that might occur. Also, the reelers are not "brain dead", but proving they can reach high target altitudes and extract power (while the ST is not even in the game). Once again, Doug's insults best apply to himself, and his boasts to everyone else.


On Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:29 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15447 From: dave santos Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: KR20060036871 (A) ― 2006-05-02
It should comfort laughed-at Koreans that even this weak AWES patent is a far better bet than an ST to harvest upper wind. Reeling may not have the best long-term prospects, but it has obviously left the ST in the dust. He who laughs last laughs best. Wishing Doug could laugh at himself first, and not be only mocking the actual hard work of developing AWE that so many others are doing.


On Saturday, October 18, 2014 7:48 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15448 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: Re: Sucking up and moving leaves

We have priorly some note about using kite systems to do tree and shrub trimming instead of using helicopters as taught in Patent US20140209210 - Airborne vegetation trimming apparatus

The use of kite systems without powered helicopter for similar work

is CC 4.x BY NC SA by Joe Faust into kPower AWES IP Pool
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15449 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2014
Subject: WO2014105396 by Leonid Goldstein, circa 2012

Study thread for

(WO2014105396) AIRBORNE WIND ENERGY SYSTEM FOR ELECTRICITY GENERATION, ENERGY STORAGE, AND OTHER USES


See above linked text for full document and all it patent drawings.

However, here a jpeg of summary drawings:

http://www.energykitesystems.net/LeoGoldstein/WO2014105396clip.JPG