Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES15249to15299 Page 200 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15249 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Convey materials up or down or both

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15251 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Joby Aviation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15252 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Teams Represented in AWES Forum

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Joby Aviation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15254 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15255 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Joby Aviation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15257 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15258 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15259 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15260 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15261 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15262 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15263 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15264 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15265 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15266 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15267 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15268 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15269 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor kite-lifted "Coaxial multi-turbine generator" by Ha

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15270 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15271 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15272 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15273 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15274 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15275 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15276 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15277 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: AWES Exiting by Maintenance Technicians

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15278 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15279 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15280 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15281 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15282 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15283 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15284 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15285 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15286 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15287 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15288 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15289 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15290 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15291 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15293 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15294 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15295 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: NTS Open Software?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15296 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15297 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: KfR (German Developmental Bank) investing in AWE (via NTS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15298 From: Andrew K Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15299 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS Open Software?



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15249 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Convey materials up or down or both

Already in forum notes are mentions of:
  • Using wet tethers and then squeezing the liquid out of the wet tethers. 
  • Having high-pressure hollow tethers to convey liquids up aloft or down from aloft.  
  • Having high-pressure hollow tethers to convey gases for various uses. 
  • Having tethers be the conveying line for sailing items up and down. Classic line messaging comes to mind here. 
  • Using lofted cableways for transportation near or far. 
  • Having tethers convey electricity, signals, vibrations, light, visibility means
  • Have tethers convey motion to drive loads, cut materials, pull things, lift things and people
  • Convey up tethers cloud-seeding materials. 
  • Convey up tethers fire-fighting materials. 
  • Convey up tethers water for various reasons: cloud making, fire-fighting, humidifying,
  • Convey ice from the sky to ground (alternative is to glide the ice from above once made aloft)
  • Convey charged batteries from aloft. Convey batteries to be charged aloft. This might dispense with conductive flight tethers. 
Furthering:
  • Conveying items may be continuous, continual, sporadic, scheduled, one-time, many times.
  • Convey tools for maintenance technicians. 
  • Convey gliders for the hang glider platform operation. 
  • Convey gifts to be dropped. Parties. Propaganda. Food supplies. Drinking water. Medical supplies. 
  • Convey animals for release into habitats and ponds and lakes. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15251 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Joby Aviation

http://www.jobyaviation.com/

Progeny of his AWE days ...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15252 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Teams Represented in AWES Forum

Without identifying precise persons, if a poster KNOWS that a team member of an AWES team is represented as member of this AWES forum, then please consider posting your knowing by just naming the team, not the member. Thank you. We respect the privacy of fully stealth members. Stating on this list should only arrive when public information already makes the statement public domain.  Do not state personal names, just the names of teams that are working on kite energy matters, which, of course, could be a kite company or other company that may supply services or equipment to the RAD effort. 


Start (VERY INCOMPLETE IN THIS FIRST POST):  Will be adding. Then deleting posts that give some further fact.


  • Wings For Farmers & Wind Powered Aircraft, LLC.
  • KiteLab Los Angeles has a representative member in this AWES forum.
  • KiteLab Ilwaco, WA has a representation on this forum. 
  • KiteLab Austin, TX has a rep on this forum 
  • KiteLab Group has a rep on this forum
  • US WindLabs has a rep on this forum
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15253 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Joby Aviation

Further progeny of his AWE days:

Joby Motors

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15254 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Kite or Kytoon Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

Then mount HAWT in the hole space. 

Severe kite lifters (perhaps train kites) will allow severely large parachutes to hold significant HAWT. 
Maximize the parachute's spreading by common aerodynamic methods. Note the funneling effect of the downwind set parachute. 
Flygen or groundgen versions at one's option. 
Multiplication of units in one system as needed. 
Multiplication of units for kite farming as needed. 
Size as wanted. 

CC 4.0 BY NC SA   entered to kPower   IP Pool

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15255 From: dave santos Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Joby Aviation
Good data for showing E-VTOL scaling limits KLG has warned about: Cost and mass increase far faster than power ratings; no sign of a plausible motor for GoogleX/Makani M600, which would fall further along the ominous scaling curve these data points plot-

Constructioninrunnerinrunnerinrunnerinrunner
Nominal Voltage40-50035-70050 - 700100 - 600V
Poles22224646
Nominal RPM6000600025002500
Maximum RPM9000900035003500
Diameter154154200200mm
Mass1800275033504000g
Length53.1656575mm
Continuous Torque13214053N-m
Continuous Shaft Power at Nominal RPM8.213.210.514kW
Peak Torque20326080N-m
Peak Shaft Power at Nominal RPM (15s)12.620.115.720.9kW
Price$1,200$1,800$2,400$3,200
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15256 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Notice that some versions need not have main tether-set winch or reel, but just earth anchoring, say.  Then for groudgen run working line loop separate from the severely taut main tether set. Main tether and lifting system is "stationary" in the PierreB sense; this allows kite-farm field to be well used. 
   Also not that the downwind set parachute is line laundry to the main tether; and note that the parachute may be with auxiliary bridle lines from points higher up on main lifting tethers above the primary parachute line-laundry connection station; such bridling will aid in giving stable working HAWT as it drives the production line loop that goes to the groundgen or other types of load for purpose. 
CC 4.0 BY NC SA   entered to kPower   IP Pool    ~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15257 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Image HAWT in each of those apex holes: 
http://www.gkites.com/update/309-1A.JPG


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15258 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15259 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/JoeFaust/AWE/ParachuteAWES/HoledParachuteHAWTfig1.jpg
One groundgen embodiment is shown sketched.  
Not shown is a sample flygen version where lower line set from main lifting tether would reach up to the 
parachute and form a lower bridle of the parachute; two of the lower lines could be conductors of 
generated electricity; such conductors would continue down to the ground.

Errata in two posts up. The sentence needs "note" where "not" is placed. 


CC 4.0 BY NC SA   entered to kPower   IP Pool    ~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15260 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Notice that embodiments may be nearly all "soft" excepting the flygen choice where the generator is not "soft". 
Some embodiments can be seen as rotor embedded in kite-cover hole; but note here that the hole is traverse to the wind and the HAWP rotor would be in that same plane, but square to the wind full face with common position of the rotor disk as normal to the wind. 
     Soft Simplicity is available here. Go winchless. Have kill lines be the working drive loop line; have also a line triggering flagging of the kite train wing elements. 

CC 4.0 BY NC SA   entered to kPower   IP Pool    ~JoeF
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15261 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Compare with Altaeros' BAT.  
Holed HAWT  as being disclosed does not have the BAT's
  • LTA challenge
  • Leakage of gas challenge
  • Inflation challenge
  • Truck challenge
  • AoA challenge for HAWT
  • Flygen challenge
  • Winch challenge (option)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15262 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

I'm in agreement all along...
The s is not there as a kite scale enabling addition... It's more a ground force standard design enabling route to AWE mixing.

Pure soft architecture will be unacceptable to many people and even for many applications long after we demonstrate great working worth.

what is the urgent design problem a giant S-spine solves better?
Participation

More people thinking about new ways to tall structure will turn the s into a c or a tick.

There are some obvious benefits available with propping devices.

Whacky scheme
Say that the scale was max 100m kite span. Can the s be a water hose able to launch the kite by nozzle exhaust?

How much could a supported beam  help stop kite leeward dropping?

Remembering that the s has to be ring mounted or other weathercocking limits the application.

What was that mantra?... Test test test
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15263 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Infilling a pressurised spine or beam with sewn ribs helps it to hold form. Like a bone.

ribbing is good in this case. I've taken the huff here.

ribbing is bad when it's a tease or worse a thought police bully.
Kite Arches are already the most-stable fliers: fact: until the wind drops. Why isn't my antenna in the air now? asks antenna kite idea sponsor.

Ironically, this is a sort of attenuated S-wave that passes thru the chord. Oh Lordy! Spare us an attempted irony lesson from Texas of all places. Where is the irony in this? The front end is intended to be able to push into wind. You must be able to see uses for having a stabilised mounting upwind of the kite under surface.

This wasn't ever attempting to solve luff problems unlike the upwind pilot ideas I have proposed in the past. You would go full chord length batten style to do that.... That's all that needs said. not dismissing an abomination of an attempt at recreating dinosaurs... That's not what it is.

Weird that someone would try to redefine the word that from a sentance with two "that"'s in it.
Try instead thinking of the s as a tower where AWE is solving how to raise it... That's the
urgent design problem

Rod's S-spine as shown does not have a highly thickened middle section (see dinosaur spines),
Well the highly optimised sketch took at least 20 minutes. Highly thickened ? what you want weight now?  If you can bring something even a 2D 2B pencil scratch to the table, or if you want to work on the open CC4.0 nc by sa file be my guest.
and would likely buckle too easily along its central zone by leverage from the ends (presuming its stiffness was needed). Well don't presume. Have you tested this?... State more clearly under which conditions ... reference the drawing, sketch over it, show the forces.

Instead of imposing a monopoly on thought ... (hmm kinda like patenting that action) Why not try and build on top of what we already know? Why not try and rehash extra elements into our designs? Get sharing, experimenting, building and doing instead of waiting for a chance to moan that it's not all your way... Now where was that handbook on irony lessons?


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15264 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Notice:
1. Further weathercocking option is the mobility of the main-tether-set anchor points while keeping groundgen work station in a place. 

2. Notice that arch kite may be seen as about half of a circular parachute with large apex hole, approximately.   So, why not have a WEC carrier be the large-holed large parachute while concentrating the lift function into an aggregate-wing set in a severely-working kite train.  

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15265 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
What a strange engineering arguments for the S-spine you make.

Giant soft kites already are the most popular at festivals. Removing the spars was the secret.

"Test, test, test" only works if its "fact driven"; not all tests are equal. At some point, the most pragmatic engineers make choices that get them farther. "Focus" is essential too. Otherwise, even "testing" a house cat sewn in the wing would work somehow (at least to raise a mob in outrage against AWE R&D).

Neglecting scaling barriers will negatively affect safety and economics; its not sustainable. 

A KLG precept is that WECS can bear sitting on the ground during calm, if that means saving big on towers or LTA to hold WECS up uselessly in calm. Let others overlook this truth.

Yes, an ideally proportioned airbeam is quite fat, and its weight goes up to be stiffest in the middle, but that's a better argument for no spine as lightest, than for a weak spine.

Lets say you do attract the popular support the S-spine is intended for, but you alienate your KIS talent, who cannot bear the excess. Magenn was most popular in its time, for its impressive look, and attracted millions in investment, but it could not attract AE talent, and died technologically.

Sadly, the sewn cat is the better option.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:01 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15266 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
Joe,

A baseline method to compare with is the same HAWT under its own wing. This keeps the HAWT easily oriented, and it can even sweep like Pierre's FlyGen (with pilot-kite added KLG-style).

Another baseline is a turbine without parachute, but with a few more inches of blade (equal to parachute mass), the prediction being that adding diameter to the rotor always wins over ducting. In this case the floppy fabric is so light, the contest will be close.

The parachute must not tend to foul on the turbine, and the turbine mass must not cause the whole to sag down.

Note that an arch can be seen as a half-parachute with the ground as a bisection plane, and placing scale-limited turbines in the "apex" is already established as an AWES architecture,

daveS




On Thursday, October 9, 2014 8:25 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15267 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project

Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project - See more at: Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project


[  ]   Comments on that photo?


The article brings in Mike Barnard's critique notes.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15268 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
DaveS just noted: "and the turbine mass must not cause the whole to sag down"

JoeF replies:
The upper bracing bridle works to prevent sag of the working parachuted HAWT. The bracing bridle goes from the parachute to the upper sections of the main lifting tether set. The bracing bridle could go to edges of the apex hole or even to downwind point of the HAWT axis shaft.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15269 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Multi-rotor kite-lifted "Coaxial multi-turbine generator" by Ha
Doug wrote: "if it took [JoeF] this long just to find Harburg when he is listed in my prior art, what is the true depth of your understanding of patents? "

Answer: This comment only reveals the dim awareness Doug has of AWES Forum proceedings. JoeF in fact highlighted Harburg in 2009, on the early Forum. He has systematically reviewed kite patents since the 70's and even supplied the legendary ValerieG with patent docs. 

The true depth of JoeF's understanding of AWE-related patents is deeper than anyone in history.




On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:58 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15270 From: Joe Faust Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes

JoeF noted: 
 Notice that arch kite may be seen as about half of a circular parachute with large apex hole, approximately.   So, why not have a WEC carrier be the large-holed large parachute while concentrating the lift function into an aggregate-wing set in a severely-working kite train. 

DaveS noted:
Note that an arch can be seen as a half-parachute with the ground as a bisection plane, and placing scale-limited turbines in the "apex" is already established as an AWES architecture.

======Comment:
Same page?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15271 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Lifted Large Parachutes with Large Apex Holes
The parachute scales better that rigid rotors, for lowest flight mass, so only an array of small turbines matches well with the largest (parachute-half) arch.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 10:01 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15272 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

Dave I suggest that YOU are ignoring scaling barriers.
It would be handy to know what the limits of mixed systems like this could be.
Dynamic rigging is fascinatingly divergent.. Can we bring an instant stadium to a field or beach?

Now where did you get the insistence that it's even a fixed spine being proposed, Or definitely intended for AWE ends?
Can we shed the AWE once erected?
Can the extra rigging options be sold for other utility while also an AWE ?
Scaling may come from popular application.
Popular involvement in AWE will take a supportive cooperative effort.
Sensitively to cultural animal husbandry standards may help too; cat killer.
Fact:someone obsessing on one goal always misses the bigger picture.
I'm not espousing pretty products without scientific base here
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15273 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Rod,

The updated Mothras already had a big ram-air spine. Unlike Empa Tensarity (super-pressure balloon with carbon-stringers), Ram-air tensairty is based on long proven kite culture (Morse Sled). Let time tell if you are right that adding an S-spine as you propose has any more advantage than just saving on cat.

If I am neglecting some km AWE scaling limit that an S-spine overcomes, please explain,

daveS


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 10:34 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15274 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: Makani sets sights on Kohala site for new wind project
Amazingly vain waste of AWE R&D resources. One could likely fund all the world's academic AWE research from the excess costs.

It will take eight hours of travel from Bay Area to Hawaii (5.5 flight hours, plus airport time, plus shuttling to Parker Ranch). All parts and tools will have to be brought in. Any missing parts will delay operations by an extra day or two at least. Hawaii costs are highest in the US. Parker Ranch is part of the ongoing  tragic destruction of Hawaii natural ecosysystem, 130,000 acres, with cattle, industrial Ag, and exotic game hunting as the major land uses. 

Testing an jumbo autonomous aerobatic E-VTOL AWES in a realistic program should go for the Mojave if they are serious (ChrisC suggested Edward's AFB as historically logical). The M600 is likely known DOA by the staff engineers, but GoogleX is paying for extending the glorious quasi-hipster Makani party culture which started on Maui, and is now headed for Hawaii's Big Island (Joby had announced a Big Island test program, but never followed through).

Fortunately, Low Complexity AWE is free of the "wrong stuff" flaws noted here, and can prevail by KIS. Fun to read MikeB claiming that AWE is trending as a global-warming-denial conspiracy, with "really bright aerospace engineers" as the pawns.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 9:29 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15275 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

If I am neglecting some km AWE scaling limit that an S-spine overcomes, please explain,...

Nope, you're missing the point. This is
not going to get AWE to the massive
but it may bring AWE to the masses

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15276 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand

How big does an AWES have to be to power a remote but grid connected community?
It doesn't. It just has to work right.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15277 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: AWES Exiting by Maintenance Technicians

Some AWES maintenance technicians will be doing similar exits:


Parachute jumps from a 100m FL2500 wind turbine


But there probably will be other exit schemes. 
Consider line travelers. 
Or hollow-tether travel.
Or textile-tube drop; be inside and drop while the tube constrains the fall some. 
Or lift-out by a lateral kite system that will then be controlled to set the worker down to the ground or to some other point in the lofted AWES. 
Exit might be by use of powered aircraft. Or by wing suit flying ended by use of a gliding parachute. 
Other exit schemes?

[[ Note: The video parachutes are gliding canopy hang gliders, that is, they are kite systems with tether-set of many tethers whilst the resistive set is the falling mass of the pilot, that is, the kite system anchor is a moving anchor; the wing may be chosen among many forms. ]]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15278 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
What if the AWES can "work right" without the S-tube?

The Morse-tube is tensairic, and looks good-enough for AWE, at lower cost and weight, and should scale better. It obviously works at smaller scales, as well (small sleds fly well at just 500cm2)

Fancy tensairity (pumped super-pressure) must catch up and pass KIS tensairity (ram-air low pressure) in small kites first, if its really better.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 11:42 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15279 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Then it's only an AWES and might miss out on being more real world useful.

Can we get a ram air tube to invert a layer or shed a skin or pump an other shape into being?
Lay an egg or cell which could be a building block.
Would it be a twisting continuous bag (like a nappy disposer) or a glue or a heat sealer?
Would the cells be topped up with 1 way bleed lines?

What is a morse tube by the way? have you got a link, I can't find it.

This Saturday I won't be getting to inflate my 50m training track (it's fairly rigid, takes a lot of puff)... no gymnastics till after Oct holidays.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15280 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: NTS News

NTS sent out this news installment today. It seems they are on track raising a new R&D funding round.

translated text-

Dear Friends of the X-wind energy, our Germany tour continues. Meet us in Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig. We have chosen this time we also special venues: The giant panoramas of the artist and architect Yadegar Asisi .  , we invite you to get to know us and our X-Wind technology in more detail in this stunning setting. Admission to the Panorama we take for granted you. Leipzig | Monday, October 13 at 18 clockLocation: ASISI Panorama, Richard-Lehmann-Str. . 114, 04275 Leipzig Berlin | Monday, November 3 at 19:30 clock  Location: ASISI Panorama, Friedrichstrasse.205, input Zimmerstraße. Dresden | Monday, November 10 at 18 clock Location: ASISI Panorama, Gasworks Road 8b, 01237 Dresden. submit your binding consent please send an e-mail to event@x-wind.de or sign up via our Facebook page at.Notice:  Only a few places left! 

Einladung: Energiedrachen in Asisi Panoramen
 

 

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Einladung: Energiedrachen in Asisi Panoramen
Unsere Deutschland-Tour geht weiter. Treffen Sie uns in Berlin, Dresden oder Leipzig!

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15281 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
Right, (Or is it Left ...)
I'm going to fit Daisy to a Falco brush-less regenerative bike e-wheel. cool.

Left is actually the side that the electrical wire gubbins goes in the axle.
So it isn't ideally suited to running the wheel CW from looking at the Left hand side.
Pants... That's the backwards way.
If I use this e-wheel I really aught to make the next Daisy go CCW from the ground holding upwind position.

newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
Which one's better (is there a better) for a kite turbine.
I always like CW because of some hoodoo celtic tradition thing.
Is there some minimal coreolis effect I don't know about and the turbine really aught go CW for best performance... Save that CCW nonsense for the Southern Hemisphere bro...

Like I said, this may just be the stupidest question you heard all week...
We have kites that spin to mesh ccw with cw
Is one inherently better for tip vortice shedding, bird striking, radar confusing...

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15282 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Its confusing if you claim I am overlooking a prime AWE scaling strategy, the "STube", while you are only specifically proposing a small community AWES solution. An Empa-style tensairity airbeam for kite use will be hard-pressed to scale much more than 50m (to still fly in "most probable wind"). Pure soft-kite structure looks to scale to font-size:16px;">
On Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:07 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15283 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Excellent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15284 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Orite then, why don't we just vein off ever smaller tube from a Morse's open mouths, to feed small cut and glued rigidising pipe elements, maintaining form, reinforcing sinew position attached to the skin of our kite, even up at the fore edge to maintain kite chord and span. If you robot print it, it can scale in speed and size of production. But this is not to be at the exclusion of smaller than max scale kites. Even a 50m kite rigidised by whichever means will have a use on the left side of a hill spinning cw. or ccw? (bets it's cw on left ccw on right)
cc4.0 nc by sa


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15285 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
Rod,

Since you offered such a high opinion ("Excellent"), the counter-opinion is provided for balance- "Mediocre".

Explanation: NTS's elevated railway does not reduce structural mass compared to towers, the loop-track concept has high upwind losses, low kite capacity intensity, and NTS secretive domination of AWEC continues*. NTS dependence on govt subsidized loans masks weakness by an unfair trade mechanism, and naive investors are still at great risk. This is another AWE stealth venture with no love for Open AWE.

By all means explain how "Excellent" somehow applies, in comparable detail,

daveS


* AWEC under Guido/NTS leadership seems to have decided to skip AWEC2014 in US, and concentrate on controlling AWEC2015 in EU. Presumably, Pierre is welcomed to play piano, helping cover for secretly banned and openly boycotted AWE participation, and the AWEIA ban remains fully in effect. The Flying Demo component will again be stacked to favor insiders. Unless reforms are made, this is the status-quo.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:40 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15286 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
I'm not going to argue the hardware that's their job.
But I will say Uwe has done an amazing job of openly sharing his software.
These guys are engaging a maximum number of people who if they can believe in this.
Well the rest of us are sorted.
Excellent

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15287 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
KiteLab uses CW rotation (as seen from the anchor), to standardize design across models and components. CCW may find use for balanced rotation next to a CW cell.

If the rpm of the Daisy is far lower than the electric bike hub design rpm, consider driving the pedal input of the bike to get a multi-geared transmission step-up advantage.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:24 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15288 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
What's so "amazing" about the "job" of sharing alpha-code? Lots of AWE players share code, and you can be sure all AWE code is very low TRL. "Excellent" is like Linux, and Uwe is no Linus.

Lets patiently see if shared NTS code ever does anything for you that convincingly offsets the severe NTS negatives listed.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:18 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15289 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
It depends on several design factors, like contra-rotating against tip vortices. A complication with kite arches is the forward-swept wingtips. You have to define the bulk flowfield, then decide what each turbine wants. It also counts how the rotor discs tilt, as DS effects occur as blades fly across shear.

Look a AirBus A400M prop rotation for an introduction to related complexities-

Airbus A400M Atlas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 1:55 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15290 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15291 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?

Yeah easy enough using front wheel or ladder rung as the tether link to the crank. Could also use clockwise doing it that way.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15292 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15293 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: STube Clamshell Back end Stand
Yeah Daisy needs a bit of sharpening to match those specs.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15294 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
So they're all over how to control kites whilst they're yonks away down a slow line... with electronics.
You don't think this could be useful for line tuning a spinning, close to gen, torque set? How not?
Mounted on the take off have heli like lift cuffs for line lengths. Set around the shaft each cuff taking a set of front lefts or front rights and the centre either being back collective or more rings with back L, back R,
cuff movement is more quickly transferred to kite surfaces ... electronic systems like fast.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15295 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: NTS Open Software?
Rod,

Did you confuse UweA with UweF?

Can you link us to NTS AWE freeware? Is it part of a cooperative AWE code effort? We have our GitHub projects, TUDelft has promoted creation of an AWE "toolbox" (Jeroen and UweF), several others have shared kite programs, but is NTS really doing an open-code community effort?

Keep in mind- 

Sharing software is cheap and easy, and many companies use crowd-sourced feedback to get free debugging, while retaining the enhanced business value. Its a bit exploitative.

AWE software is still bound to be very architecture-specific and fragmentary, more toy than ideal tool.

AWE wind simulation has yet to be done with realistic data (with complex turbulence organization like peak-event vortical-cores).

Thanks for any link to NTS code,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15296 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
I lately propose we let NTS investment machine run, and build its expensive circular kite track that we then take-over* for a giant arch turret. We would throw away most NTS legacy code (some train-car code could reuse for moving arch anchors), and write all new code to automate a giant single-unit kite arch kitefarm process (initially human-piloted).


* By organizing an NTS shareholder revolt when the low capacity-density problem kicks in. NTS is likely not selling much voting share away, so a "stakeholder revolt" may be a more accurate descriptor. Most AWE ventures face Darwinian odds, and the strongest survivors eat the weak. Open AWE is hoped to be the top predator-vulture of failed private AWE.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 3:00 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15297 From: dave santos Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: KfR (German Developmental Bank) investing in AWE (via NTS)
Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau (development bank) is investing in NTS R&D, with a less clouded past than Ellwanger & Geiger (NTS Advisory Board participation)

KfW - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

 

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KfW - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The KfW, formerly KfW Bankengruppe (banking group), is a German government-owned development bank, based in Frankfurt. Its name originally comes from Kred...

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15298 From: Andrew K Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: newbie question of the week: CW or CCW?
I vote for widdershins,
no particular reason, I've just always wanted to use that in a
technical document.
In the northern hemisphere of course....

Seriously though the direction of rotation might be significant in an array.
For instance a horizontal rotor turning clockwise could be placed
upstream of a rotor turning counter-clockwise so the downwind rotor
could capture some of the swirl energy similar to the way co-axial
contra-rotating propellers have been used in aircraft and boats.
Vertical windmills are not so simple but I have to think the
downstream wake has to be non symmetrical so there's probably a way to
make that work in your favor.

Andrew in Ann Arbor
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15299 From: Rod Read Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: NTS Open Software?

Oh Drat.
Think you're right.
Apologies to both Uwe's.