Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES15048to15097 Page 196 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15048 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15049 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15050 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Groundgen Kite Train of Rectangular-framed Pa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15051 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15052 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15053 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Photo of the Week

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15054 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15055 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15056 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15057 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15058 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15059 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Photo of the Week

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15060 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15061 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Groundgen Kite Train of Rectangular-framed Pa

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15062 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15063 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15064 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15065 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15066 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15067 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15068 From: edoishi Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: FAA issuing "N" numbers to AWES UAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15069 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15070 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15071 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15072 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15073 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15074 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15075 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: FAA issuing "N" numbers to AWES UAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15076 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15077 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15078 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15079 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15080 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15081 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15083 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15084 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15085 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15086 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15087 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15088 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15089 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Study of Bolonkin's year 2001 AWES patent application

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15090 From: Rod Read Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15091 From: Rod Read Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15092 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15093 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15094 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15095 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15096 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15097 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15048 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Where an arch loadpath is made of spinning rigidised sausages, daisy parts or ladders, with bearing mounted kixels..
Is it a STarch?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15049 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT

Cc4.0 NC BY SA

On 3 Oct 2014 22:23, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15050 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Groundgen Kite Train of Rectangular-framed Pa
Thanks; I will get some drawings up soon.
You may be onto some tension-only matters that will be interesting to explore.
Some pause.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15051 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
The SkyBow is a pure STarch

Not sure though what exactly JoeF is presenting, until a drawing confirms the textual picture.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 2:23 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15052 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

When much of the whole of a flow system which you are constrained in is your torque driver then torque can scale like fish
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15053 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Photo of the Week

Stick to AWE please

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15054 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

We've got loads of bearing interweave bless architecture now. What's to stop us growing on a cellular basis?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15055 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Bless reads based in above sorry

On 3 Oct 2014 22:57, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15056 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Agreed, but lets be clear just how large fish scale; Wikipedia- "the whale shark (Rhincodon typus), of the world's tropical oceans..is...the largest living animal that is not a cetacean...An average adult species measure 9.7 m (32 ft) long and weigh an average of 9 tonnes. The largest verified specimen was caught in 1949 off Karachi, Pakistan and was 12.7 m (42 ft) long and weighed 21.5 tonnes." That's not enough.

Besides inherent scaling limits that Gordon identified, a real problem with these large torque schemes is low-rpm operation. The outer tips are slowed by soft wing and tether-drag, with no possibility of efficient high-speed rotation at larger scales. Another problem is the nuisance of fickle wind and gravity. The turbine width collapses in lulls and is hard to start already (if its like kite spinning-crowns), so constant restart is a serious bother. 

Let testing confirm (or not) all predictions, in any case.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 2:49 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15057 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Yup,
Fully preparing to show you a solid wing tip trick I learnt from a worm and a cloud.
Water is 800 odd times as dense and remember that the fishies don't feed on flow alone.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15058 From: Rod Read Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Fish go to school too

On 3 Oct 2014 23:24, "Rod Read" <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15059 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES Photo of the Week
Yes, this topic should have been for Dan Tracy's work to speak for itself. The "ten easy ways to do AWE" was a red herring in this context; a garbled appropriation of other folks' AWES methods that the Forum publicly instructed first, with better analysis and fairer attribution.

Lets "Stick to AWE" by giving DanT his proper due, without regard to claim-jumpers and partisans. Ironically, Rod gave no specific nod to DanT, but his Netiquette point is well taken. "Photo of the Week" seems to me odd; as if photos and weeks logically match, and also obscures that this is really a DanT topic, but in AWES-photo-week/"10-easy-ways" guise.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 2:54 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15060 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Not relevant, as usual...."You will need better luck than KiteLab Ilwaco, whose in-plane turbine experiment sadly suffered from" ***from.. from.. DaveS' idiocy!

DaveS' typical garbage: substituting a computer muffin fan as a turbine and claiming to infer valid data.

"So all your opinions are stacks of irrelevancies and incoherencies...."
PierreB
*** Yeah and they are always wrong, highly annoying, some of the stupidest crap I have ever encountered, by anyone, anywhere, anytime.  Thank God we can walk away from the computer and turn him off!  Imagine being stuck with that in real life?  OMG!!!!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15061 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Groundgen Kite Train of Rectangular-framed Pa
First of a coming series of drawings: 




---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@gmail.com You may be onto some tension-only matters that will be interesting to explore.
Some pause.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15062 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
"there seems scant reason to think you have presented an inventive-leap for a valid AWE patent.... this finding stands unrebutted, daveS" *** Stick it DaveS.  You have no business telling Pierre, or anyone else, whether their patent is valid.  You're an armchair internet-idiot who doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground.  H-E double-toothpicks 4 U.  I suggest you go to Dallas and see if you can contract Ebola.  I think they brought it in to get rid of the riff-raff like U.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15063 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
What we see in biological evolution is a very long phase of small-scale life before large-scale life took off. It can be supposed that the scaling challenges were "hard" to solve, based on the long gestation.

Small AWE works now. We may have most of the pieces needed to scale AWE up, but the last missing bits are the hardest to complete, and will require more time, talent, and money.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 2:59 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15064 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Doug,

Wrong guess: No muffin-fan was used. Its a far larger turbine rotor with its scimitar blades in proper helical-pitch handedness. I tested both in-wing and free-flow, so any normal rotor would have worked, even a muffin fan, if nothing better was available.

We all have a right to share opinions about patents*, as you do too. You do not invalidate rights by weirdly claiming they do not exist,

daveS

* For example, ST patent prior art for stacked rotors, torque, and pilot-lifters seems applicable.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 3:44 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15065 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
"the full normal working blade plane is not a feature of the slanted ST."-JoeF *** Wrong Joe, you didn't read the text. Tilting hubs are part of the disclosure.
What do you think Dave S needs some help with his battle for ignorance?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15066 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year
"Correction: I have never thought Doug couldn't list 10 ways to do AWE"
*** Yes you did, now shut the hell up.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15067 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
Doug, the comment concerned "slanted" ST. 
Intended was off perpendicular. 
When ST embodiments involve tilting hubs 
and are set to go normal to wind, then 
we yet have the torque tube distinction
between the subject system and ST. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15068 From: edoishi Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: FAA issuing "N" numbers to AWES UAS
On behalf of kPower I filed a request for the following N numbers with the FAA:

N360KP
N314KP

Pending final approval by a notoriously slow federal government, kPower will use one or both of these numbers for all high altitude AWE testing. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15069 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents
"reeling will be seen as the historic stepping-stone method to a new energy resource, rather than a dead-end."  ***The only evidence reeling sucks is ME SAYING IT.  Not one other person I know of has publicly questioned the basic idea of kite-reeling.  (Reminds me of predicting the World Trade Center would be hit by a jetliner, decades ago, while it was still under construction).  So why would DaveS already be backing off of his previous knee-jerk worship of authority-figures to suggest kite-reeling might actually be a joke?

Since you don't agree with anything I say, why would you suddenly question reeling now?  "Like dogshit, kite-reeling must be really good, since 1 million flies can't be wrong!" ( or 1000 idiots and teams of grad students). 

Here's a slogan for you kite-reelers - U have my permission 2 use it:
"Kite-reeling - well yes it DOES suck, but we couldn't think of anything better!  Why?  Because we're the smartest people in the world!"

Nah I still like:
"Kite-reeling: because a million flies couldn't be wrong..." (could they?)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15070 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
"small AWES...are easily made...the hard aspect of AWE engineering is scaling up...to large grid-scale..."DaveS ***Nah, your small demos suck, and larger versions would just suck harder, at a larger scale.  You have no idea what you're doing at any scale.  No need to test your superstitious fear of scaling up, since your small demos show no particular promise.

"Developing giant AWES remains a sort of Mt Everest of engineering, as SaulG, for one, correctly asserted:" The problem is all no-nothing idiots, all the time.  There is nothing conceptually difficult or complicated about AWE, just that nobody with half-a-brain is giving it a serious effort yet.  Most of these self-annointed "heroes" of AWE don't have a clue, and have introduced nothing but new ways to waste money and tie up grad students' time with false promises.

I was next to a huge windfarm the other day, doing a small turbine install.  I noticed the windfarm has grown a lot since I was last there.  Even the people in the industry are starting to note how ugly thousands of turbines are.  One row of turbines is strikingly beautiful.  Hundreds of rows are a visual cacophony, hard on the eyeballs.  Ugly ugly ugly.  These windfarms should be in the sky.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15071 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year
Doug,

Who is impressed by a copy-cat?

Anyone who has followed the AWES Forum could name far more than ten ways, including you. The deeper question was whether you could show us ten AWES ideas not already presented in public by others. Secondarily, could you show that such ideas that really were "easy". You did neither.

Go ahead and prove me wrong and present original AWES ideas, as one would reasonably expect from someone legitimately claiming to be the world's greatest living wind power inventor,

daveS


On Friday, October 3, 2014 4:06 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15072 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents
Doug,

You overlook how carefully reeling has been critiqued by me in past years on the Forum, by many very specific technical shortcomings. By comparison, your critique of reeling is less insightful and informed.

We both were surprised that reeling is still so popular. I am delighted that the underdog method yet persists, and appreciate why, while you seem totally flummoxed. One thing is sure, the many reelers are smarter than you claim and doing better than any scheme you represent,

daveS


On Friday, October 3, 2014 4:16 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15073 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

Anyone may edit the article; tweaking the details is ever inviting. 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15074 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
Doug,

You still have never faced scaling-laws seriously, nevermind me. Calculate how heavy your 1000ft rotating tower ST would be, and how much power it would output, if you are brave enough. I have already presented my grim calculations, which you ignored.

My small demos are be far more numerous and varied than yours, but they really are all worthwhile, everybody's, yours included. Your emotional biases prevent you seeing good in the work of others. You did not even remember that most of my demos are in fact rotary turbines, that's how out-to-lunch you are.

My circle is scaling up as fast as we can without cutting corners, so be patient. Lets see you scale faster, if you are the better man,

daveS


On Friday, October 3, 2014 4:27 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15075 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: FAA issuing "N" numbers to AWES UAS
Right-On, Ed.

These are the first, or nearly first, N numbers in AWE (baby numbers). We seem on track to be routinely flying experiments at 2000ft before winter. All are invited to propose rigs, payloads, and contract for high-altitude pilot-lifting services for your prototype WECS. The first tests are happening at low altitude, under kite norms. At the higher permitted altitude, we first intend to display line-markers every 50ft, with the FAA orange and white stack at the top. What is especially being tested is legacy FARs for tethered aircraft conspicuity, as the baseline target, without waiver or exemption. Our goal is RAD exceeding FAA standards while eventually performing AWE generation most effectively.


On Friday, October 3, 2014 4:14 PM, "edoishi@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15076 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
"we yet have the torque tube distinction between the subject system and ST." - JoeF  ***Joe stop acting like a Dave S.  Many versions of ST do NOT use a torque tube.  Many versions use lines, as in kites and paragliders, or other ways, to tether, transmit torque, etc.  I think U could use an ST refresher course.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15077 From: dougselsam Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
"Doug,You still have never faced scaling-laws seriously... how heavy your 1000ft rotating tower ST would be" *** Who the heck ever said anything about a 1000-foot rotating tower?  I mean, it would be nice, but it's not something I had in mind, specifically, at all.  Where do you get that?

"and how much power it would output, if you are brave enough." ***I'll leave such baffling calculations to ultra-brave people like you who call yourself an engineer while not understanding that units must balance

" I have already presented my grim calculations, which you ignored."
***Yeah I ignore nonsense.  You sound like you fancy yourself a fictional character in some sort of novel or something.  Maybe a caricature of a mad scientist villain. "my grim calculations" - yeah, your calculations ARE grim - grim in that they show no signs of you understanding engineering.

"My small demos are be far more numerous and varied than yours,"
*** Ah yes, and your supernatural powers are so finely tuned... In your case numerous demos are a sign of confusion, non-targeted effort, lack of knowledge, misapplication of physics - ya know, general ignorance..

"but they really are all worthwhile, everybody's, yours included."
*** Yeah they are all worthwhile so when I get one to work out, everybody else's untargeted yet expensive efforts will make cheap, easy ways look good by comparison, and people will think it must have been difficult, seeing all the highly-credentialed idiots having wasted so much time and money chasing rainbows

"Your emotional biases prevent you seeing good in the work of others."
***Oh no that is not true.  More daily lies from DaveS.  I congratulated Ockels for Laddermill, and never said he wasn't first to publicly promote the idea.  I just told Dan Tracy "good job" just yesterday.  I encouraged Pierre to keep at what he is trying too, just this week.  I'm always encouraging when people actually DO something.  I call them out in the carpet when they act like idiots.

***I appreciate GOOD work in AWE (or anywhere else), and I am tired of IDIOTS trying to "press-release" their way to fame and fortune, claiming success ahead of the fact, just fooling themselves and others, yanking peoples' chains, wasting peoples' money and time, pursuing ideas that are nonviable on their face.  That is typical of wind energy "inventors".  Just as in regular wind energy, all the "inventors" have pretty much the same unimaginative "invention".   Let's just call it the "been-there-done-that" syndrome.  ("Hey, look at our invention!"  "Wow, it's just like our invention!")  At least Joby and Makani had the sense to merge.

"You did not even remember that most of my demos are in fact rotary turbines, that's how out-to-lunch you are."
*** I barely bother to look at your crap anymore.  2-second videos showing that you got something to wiggle are a waste of my time.  I'd rather take a lunch break.  Besides, I thought I was supposed to be scared - or something... I mean the arch-super-villain is scary, right?
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15078 From: dave santos Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
JoeF,

Doug may be right; the SuperTurbine is a broader category, but not in the way he prefers. "ST" has lately come to mean generically all AWES torque-based rotor-stacks, including Rudy's string torque-ladder patent, the SkyBow as a "STarch", and Fry covers stacked rotors coupled by stiff driveshafts.

Doug can choose if he wants the honor of naming the whole ST class, or assert his TM to only apply to his products, we could honor his preference either way. Maybe ST is our jargon; not TMed. We can also ponder a non-ST technical label for the class, since ST is more marketing-tag than properly descriptive,

daveS


On Friday, October 3, 2014 7:13 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15079 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: CC 4.x BY NC SA :: Trained Ringed Hub-less HAWT
Doug,  the "torque tube" may be sparse set of lines or tight solid-shell tube; the sparse set of lines torque tube may be a single line or a set of two or three or four or n-lines spread to torque; the result is a tube; ST has some sparse torque tubes and some tight torque tubes. When ST kite-lifter tensions the sparse torque tubes, then ST seems to aim to reduce the mass cost of the tight more solid torque tube. But the topic of this thread of discussion is not a torque-tube arrangement, not sparse lined torque tube and not tight more solid pipe-like torque tube; simply not torque for PTO, but in flygen mode with station-keeping lines that form a tube of lines but not for torque purposes.   The "structural lattice" remains a torque tube even though your patent text distinguishes the "driveshaft" from the lattice arrangements; being sparse and tensional to form the wider torque tube "structural lattice" does keep the structural lattice as a torque tube mechanism for the ST purposes.    The topic of this discussion thread is a simple train of flygen ringed HAWT without the torque tube challenges. ~ JoeF.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15080 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

TT :: Torque-Tether AWES Family

Let "tether" be a thread, a line, a rope, a cable, a set of lines spread by spreaders, a set of lines in high tension without spreaders, etc.   that tether wings and WECs.   Now have ground PTO by torque from the tether. Such AWES groundgen have a robust presence in the literature. 

        http://www.energykitesystems.net/Harburg/Harburg1990abstract.jpg   Rudy Harburg strongly played and instructed TT.    Harburg seems not to be one of the several cited patentees by the Serpentine Patent US6616402 - Serpentine wind turbine    that seems to me to have much of Harburg flow.    Serpentine was circa 2001 and Harburg was circa 1990.  Giving Harburg his full due would take some careful study and effort; then after that, examine what might remain in Serpentine as novel.   The text of Harburg is core matter; do not be fooled by just the one drawing; savoring his full teaching enlightens.     

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15081 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Recalling:

Patent US6173922 - Failure resistant multiline tether
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15083 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15084 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

And ever something from the Salient Elephant for the TT party:

https://salientwhiteelephant.wordpress.com/tag/very-large-wind-turbine/page/3/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15085 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15086 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family
Going large sparse: 
Torque Rumi | TAM Construction

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15087 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower
Watson to join this collective: 
William K. Watson of Seattle, Washington, circa 1982.

Patent US4491739 - Airship-floated wind turbine

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15088 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family

Patent US3177684 - Rotary power transmitting device

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15089 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Study of Bolonkin's year 2001 AWES patent application

This topic thread: 

Study of Bolonkin's year 2001 AWES patent application: 

At linked page, one has a choice to open PDF of the patent application. 

Patent US20030066934 - Method of utilization a flow energy and power installation for it

Each arrangement and some of his text might be interesting for study and discussion. 


Tags:laddermill, downwind, Alexander Bolonkin, A. A. Bolonkin, Alexander Alexandrovich, 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15090 From: Rod Read Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: 10 easy ways to do AWE: understatement of the year

Is this chat based on US standards of the definition of best?
Are we the AWE equivalent of http://youtu.be/xJsmbkm0Ktg
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15091 From: Rod Read Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

I'm pretty sure when I stood ranting my yokal kite lore wearing a kilt in front of AWEC2013, I insisted that yoyo reeling was a huge waste of space
(although like most people who saw, I have tried to forget how offensively amateurish I looked )

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15092 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: wholesale wind energy price now 2.5 cents

"...I insisted that yoyo reeling was a huge waste of space..." for at least two reasons: additional space by reeling operations, but above all by the requirement of use in farm of unities counterbalancing mutually and making a forest of moving tethers. 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15093 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
Doug,

You proposed on the Forum an ST 1000ft high as doable, but never followed up with specifications (weight, power, cost estimates). To not remember what you claim is sadly believable. A 1000ft ST was too high to properly defend as practical. If you do have a real large-scale AWES design, with realistic weight calculations; an "easy way to do AWE", that keeps you relevant in AWE, its overdue see it. Otherwise, your "world's greatest" run never began, and a few small turbines on masts is your legacy in wind power.

We want you to create real AWES, even if they are bad as you claim all others are. Let the "PhDs run amok" write theories to explain the engineering triumph you have claimed to be able to invent. Prove that your ideas really are better, and you will deserve admiration, but it hasn't happened yet, Laugh at my work all you want, but it would be better if you can surpass it. Its a very exciting time for AWE R&D, and you seem benched on the sidelines,

daveS






On Friday, October 3, 2014 8:05 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15094 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Take a Serpentine like on  www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFXg0HYSU8 then put off kite pilot (it will cut the whole line of rotors). Now take the rotor in the top, embed in a kite (top rotor and kite forming a plan like I suggest in another topic) and transform it into the first rotor of the followind set by implementation of a second generator, the end of the axis of the precedent set being held by said kite. Adding the same set, then another..., until reaching 1000 ft and more. Such an installation allows the implementation of several kites as lifters without cutting the line of rotors, and also allows different independant sets comprising their respective generators within respective kites, and facing different wind forces and directions, that while axis are in continuity.(Difficult) take-off kite after kite, generators as motors, rotors being superimposed before being spaced.

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15095 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: TT :: Torque Tether AWES Family
Torque-Tether-Train AWES taught by Harburg and rehearsed later in Serpentine's Selsam have high tension in the tether set which tether set has the rotors as spreaders to widen the average diameter of the global torque tube (recall that torque tube come in flavors from a single line to a solid-shell pipe to a sparse-lined-spreader-embedded large-diameter tube where torque tubes may become huge in diameter) may be explored in great variety. 

Consider Harburg teaching and consider using 20 ft segment rotors as spreaders of sparse tethers that form the torque tube; have a lifting train to give robust tension to the torque tube made of the sparse lines set at the tips of the segment rotors. Have PTO be as Harburg taught and followed apparently unknowing by Serpentine teacher Selsam.  Given sufficient top tensioning train and working rotor segments that lift and tension further, then high altitudes may be the playground with ground PTO from the torque tube. Note: here we are not viewing a massive solid pipe for torque tube, but rather the Harburg perimeter sparse-line torque tube (also part of the rehearsed later teaching of Selsam in Serpentine).  Rod Read is exploring tech close to such. 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/conversations/messages/15080 for Torque Tether  (forms of torque tube).   TTT (Torque Tether Train) have trained segments that come in variety of forms: rung, spreaders, lifting rotors).  Scale by having assets of pilot-lifting trains above along with lifting segment rotors; such may assure the tension needed to have the large-diameter sparse-line torque tube drive robustly grounded arms that drive the shaft of electric generators.     Build, test, report, compare. 
Detail note: I keep confusing myself and maybe confusing others; someplace Selsam may have cited Harburg; sorry for confusion; this matter needs good referencing; Selsam has more than one patent.  In any case whatever Harburg had, use of such in Selsam matters cannot be novel. 

It might not be easy to have large-diameter sparse-lined torque tubes as tether for system for torque driven ground electric generators, but a robust exploration seems underway by several research centers. 
~ JoeF 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15096 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE

Correction of my precedent message: each kite will produce wind shadow, so there will be lines of rotors stage by stage. But aligned top rotor and kite in each stage will allow implementation of generator (working as motor for take-off) (see precedent post) in each stage.
 
PierreB
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 15097 From: dave santos Date: 10/4/2014
Subject: Re: What is easy and what is hard in AWE
Gordon's severe torque critique is being tested by those in AWE who think torque transmission may be the way. If Gordon is right, they have no chance, but will present a real-life testing for those who do not read or agree Gordon. If all scaling is hard in AWE, because aviation-scaling of any kind is hard, then torque is the hardest structural scaling path of all, with the least power-to-weight ratio of any basic transmission means. Doug has clearly bet his public legacy on torque. Rod should soon get a second indication comparable to Doug's SkySerpent experience, that scaling longer/higher than ~20m simply becomes unworkable, as well as experiencing dismal limits to rotation frequency by tether and wing drag.

Why argue without data? Let AWE's torque experimenters prove Gordon right or wrong by testing, and settle all doubts. They first have to get into the 200-700m wind zone that others are already flying in, which I do not see happening. I bet Gordon got it right, but let the AWE torque testing be the proper decider.


On Saturday, October 4, 2014 10:08 AM, "'Pierre Benhaiem' pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com