Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14890to14946 Page 193 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14890 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14892 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14893 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14894 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14895 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14896 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14898 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Power Systems

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14900 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14901 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14902 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14903 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14904 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14905 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14906 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14908 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14910 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14911 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14912 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14913 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14914 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14915 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14916 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14917 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14918 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14919 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14920 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14921 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14922 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14923 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14924 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14925 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14926 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14927 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14928 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14929 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14930 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14931 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14932 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Variable length rope-driving (low-complexity way)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14933 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14934 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: kPower's ongoing Restructuring for Growth

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14935 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14936 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14937 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14938 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14940 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14941 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14943 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14944 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14945 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14946 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Gyroplane Rotor Blades



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14890 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
here is the LAGI prior art-

Sky Domes | LAGI-2012
 


On Monday, September 29, 2014 4:45 PM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14892 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
On topic: Patent US701106 - Kite. by Hughie J. Trainor      , circa 1902.  

The PTO WECs are set in the plane of the soft sailed kite. The wind's energy is converted to sound; such sound is converted to tether-embedded sound and sent to ground transducer that permits formatting to sound in air again for reception by a human's ear. Those skilled in the arts could set other kinds of WECS into the approximate plane of the sail of a wing of a king system for generation formats of energy of other sorts.    
~ JoeF    

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14893 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
In 1902 a patent focusing on sound is kin to the present topic. Note in the patent that Trainor insisted: "Also other forms of acoustical device may be used in place of the whistles." And I note that the arts of the telephone were occurring. 
Timeline of the telephone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What would be obvious to those skilled in the arts is that WECs may be placed in the plane of a kite's wing covering for receiving the impact of the wind for converting the wind's energy to various formats of energy.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14894 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
Purpose: Buzzing noise as part of the purpose: 
circa 1954:   Bladed turbine generates sound and set on kite sail cover: 

====================================================
Another inventor: Wen-Ping Chang
makes noise by use of a kite system that involves a WEC on main tether under lifter WEC wing:  Patent US4752051 - Sound device attached to kite string

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14895 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

LAGI really does count as prior art, but there is still a lot more prior art for you to review.

daveS


On Monday, September 29, 2014 5:46 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14896 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
LTA teaching having rotor-driven loop to drive ground loads: 

Gijsbert J. Engelsman
Netherlands
Airship-Windmill
circa 1981

https://www.google.com/patents/US4470563

 


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14898 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Power Systems

 Patent US8791585 - Power systems   Grant Howard Calverley


Study and discussion of Grant's instruction: 

 ???
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14900 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Circa 2006 a published instruction shows the ease that prior art could be brought into a teaching. See Fig. 4b and its related text. Iconic kite symbol was used, though the author was including a broad spectrum of kites. He included the rotor and generator in a kite's sail cover in the same approximate plane of the kite's sail. 
Applicant:  Ray M. Alden

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14901 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Impeller for a wind motor
US 4547124 A
Patent US4547124 - Impeller for a wind motor

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14902 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

135 messages in this topic sets the Forum record, and the reason is an irresponsibly premature claim of invention, when you have not even done a full literature review yet. I did my best at the time and really can't do any better reporting for you. Extensive old Forum documentation will surely re-emerge in searching. 

We are now about three years ahead of your understanding of this concept space. The variable tilting of embedded turbines in the kiteplane flaps beats turbines set as you intend, and many soft-kite versions are documented in the defensive disclosure (2007-2010 versions will precede your claim). LAGI might have some precedent disclosure we can look for, but be patient with Joe and my time. We spend a lot of time correcting what might fairly be your responsibility to correct.

Good luck with your prototype challenges. Inherent defects predicted and observed are yours to invalidate by brilliant results. Let us get back to hot new AWE topics you confess not to have expected existed,

daveS


On Monday, September 29, 2014 7:27 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14903 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,


I have not seen any exploration of challenges and possibilities of in-plan set of kite-turbines (where are your "test, test,test...?), even by LAGI showing good possibilities you should study. Some "prior art" is not about pushed investigations possibly comprising technical papers. Your "report" you invoked changed in each post, showing your inhability having a reliable understanding of aerodynamic , here for flow through a hole (DougS brought another explain, making yours changing) ,that with confuse comparisons between tilted embedded AoA and non embedded HAWT bringing a lost of time for right searches. "We are now about three years ahead of your understanding of this concept space. The variable tilting of embedded turbines in the kiteplane flap beats turbines set as you intend" Are there serious technical papers about your evolution towards variable tilting? Where are test,test,test...? "Inherent defects predicted and observed are yours to invalidate by brilliant results" So you have only predicted inherent defects. Are you Madame Soleil? "Let us get back to hot new AWE topics you confess not to have expected existed". You change my words as usual (changing also your "reports"):I opened a topic about DS and speak about different topics, comprising sound (what a hot new AWE topic!).

My idea is 135 or more posts about the present topic is not enough: going to 500 to have a better understanding of challenges, possibilities, problems. But I understand by telling such things like "Inherent defects predicted and observed are yours to invalidate by brilliant results", you do not know anything of this subject.

 

So what LAGI shows, what I show, should be the object of more studies. Perhaps a better engineer like DougS can contribute for them (deduction I make from his technical more precise posts on the present topic and on other topics).  But indeed it is better you return in sound, or Böse-Einstein oscillating (probably you have 50 years ahead of understanding), or passively controlled looping-units under Arch (where LAGI's (non yet studied enough) concept or mine is far above)... I do not read more about these hundred times repeated subjects: I am too busy for it.

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14904 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
Percussive maintenance doesn't work on dead horses

Ultrasonic baths are ace, but a vibrating tarpaulin wont emit enough airborne acoustic energy to clean tractors underneath.
It may redirect energy however, whether as a duct or by means of tether.

We don't need a giant flying ear filtering out masses of noise to amplify the smallest focussed point of energy interest.
We need an all engaged noise enveloper, grasping buffets and gusts as they pass.

If the hold method induces vibration, the sail better be built to handle it and the gen better be tuned to pump with it.
If the hold is continual movement, the drive better transmit that efficiently to a suitable gen set.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14905 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Are there technical papers or serious tests about in-plan set of rotors in kite? What are aerodynamical studies, comparisons rotors alone, and within kite...?

From Tu Delft? From other universities? Thanks.

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14906 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

On this topic there are many mentions of some prior art but not of reliable technical indications (mine are not enough, from others some more reliable indication from DougS,but it is not enough), comprising references of reliable tests and technical papers. So now I propose pushing technical investigations which are the main part of fruitful study.

  • Rotor alone, rotor within kite, air flow
  • Problems for take-off (how is it possible to strech the kite, other means)
  • What are configurations (rotor alone or group of rotors) for optimal wind on turbines.
  • Landing
  • Quick depower
  • Scalability
  • Road marking
  • Variable tilting (cost, purposes)
  • Wind forces to avoid collapses between turbines
  • Power/land and space used
  • ?

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14908 From: Rod Read Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
2 classic patents with 2 classic dilemmas.

1st classic
Loop driving needs and efficient way of lengthening and shortening the loop to keep active through launch, retraction, gust etc.. Can overlapping capstans shorten a loop enough and not impart too much bearing drag..? eugh Can the loop line be run (or stopped and started)  through an active fan belt (link type like on fishing boats) resizer? Or a straight line re-splicer / braider? And then,  How do you even loft a big pulling wheel like that anyways?

2nd classic
A big heavy outer ring component comes to a solid shaft.
Scale! This needs to be supported by the same wind which is trying to knock it sideways.
So so much of that ring and shaft can disappear...
Now look at your rotor, can you harvest using use both rotational plane torque and lift tethering thrust forces?

Yes make a more Daisy like system.
Ring is going to be adapted soon to have taped infill at kite roots graduated toward lift line central axis tether... to make each kite blade look more like a seagull trying to escape a leash (you know like you always see down at the pier)
CC4.0 NC BY SA

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14910 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Wind driven, high altitude power apparatus

www.google.com/patents/US4165468
Grant - ‎Filed Mar 7, 1978 - ‎Issued Aug 21, 1979 - ‎Charles M. Fry - ‎Fry Charles M
Wind driven rotors are affixed along the length of a flexible power shaft, and the shaft is suspended at a great height above the earth by means ...
‎Overview - ‎Related - ‎Discuss

Wind driven, high altitude power apparatus

www.google.com/patents/US4084102
Grant - ‎Filed Jan 19, 1976 - ‎Issued Apr 11, 1978 - ‎Charles Max Fry - ‎Charles Max Fry
Wind driven rotors are affixed along the length of a flexible power shaft, and the shaft is suspended at a great height above the earth by means ...
‎Overview - ‎Related - ‎Newest 'us4084102' Questions

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14911 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Good quest, Pierre. The effectiveness of various arrangement is indeed a separate question different from the arrangements themselves.

In preparing for the quest, perhaps the following might help find items:
1. Shrouded rotor turbines.
2. Fences with relief holes. How much relief occurs because of holes and slits. Construction sites. Large fabric signs with relief holes
3. Baseline studies on free rotors (the bulk of conventional wind)
4. RATs
5. Wind walls
6. LTA kytoons that hold turbines in the approximate plane of the kytoon face.
7. ? (open for more ...)


Some experiments, perhaps:
1. Make two identical kite wings. Fly both of them in similar air at the same time. Then bring one of the wings down; put a hole in the face plane of the wing; launch and observe. This experiment has been repeated by many who sought to get advantages by placing holes in the face of the humble Scott Sled and similar sleds. Judiciously placed sized holes alter the flow about the wing.
2. Then consider placing gen-damped rotors in holes of the faces of kited wings. Keep a base kite untouched for flying in same flight sessions.




---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Are there technical papers or serious tests about in-plan set of rotors in kite? What are aerodynamical studies, comparisons rotors alone, and within kite...?
From Tu Delft? From other universities? Thanks.

PierreB
http://flygenkite.com http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14912 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
"Doug, If a turbine on a turbine is "stupid" (Payne, Loyd, Makani, etc.), then you win the distinction most."-DaveS ***U R 2 stupid to see it was a joke.  Of COURSE SuperTurbine(R) is exactly that:  A turbine on a turbine on a turbine.... Stacking turbines would be exactly where an astute AWE pioneer would start.  How dumb can 1000 researchers be?  I think Magenn is a good example of that.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14913 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

This topic thread invites exploration of rotating parachute systems (RPS). 

We indeed already have significant posts in our forum that touch on items that seem kin to RPS. Consider the Daisy explorations of Rod Read 


RPS have been the attention of space reentry engineers, powered aircraft drogue explorers, sky divers with respect to some malfunctions, kite-laundry adventurers,  and more.   We have some huge AWES concepts that employ rotating parachute-like wings where ring generators form PTO.   We have seen torque of rotating parachutes driving electric generators.    These strands and others to appear may provide some RAD in the soft-wing realm. Consider HAWT RPS lifted by kite trains; have various PTOs from the arrangement. 


To start: 

Rotating parachute

US 3931945 A 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14914 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre: i found years ago, if you have new ideas and are looking for data, even for simple questions, it's not always easy to find, and often probably doesn't exist.  That's an indication you're on the cutting edge - enjoy your status as a pioneer.  Even if you find some data, your system may have one thing different, that would completely change or invalidate the previous data.  Remember, theories are merely our best way to explain how something works, once we already KNOW it works.  Most successful projects emanate from someone who gets up to speed and can then feel the solution in their gut. I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Just build what you think will work, and check it, modify, check again, etc.  You'll be surprised how fast you will learn.  Within just a few years, you'll be able to analyze your system in your sleep.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14915 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Joining to topic what we have known priorly:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14916 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
You know what's funny Joe?  I was already studying these patents before there WAS an internet.  I used to have to fly to Washington DC and spend a couple weeks in the stacks of the patent library, physically leafing through paper page, after paper page. 

Now you cite them in an internet message and we can all pull them up in a second or two from sitting on our butts at home in our underwear.  Amazing how easy things are today, but it doesn't help most teams: GIGO. 

By the way, I have the distinct dejavu impression that you've posted these exact same patents several times in the past now.  Do you recall posting them before?  Is there any rhyme or reason to when you post links to patents?  Any thought of saying "I've posted this one several times before"?  It seems you may be creating the illusion, for people who are not paying attention, that the thousand-year-old "newborn baby" has more prior art than it actually has, by repeating the same prior art over and over but not noting so when posting it.
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14917 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Patent US2770432 - Parachute with rotating canopy

 

      
US 2770432 A 
Harry Thompson Stevinson
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14918 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Doug,

Its no joke to call everyone stupid all the time; its unprofessional. Everyone else is more cordial. Such Forum behavior is sad, not funny.

For years now you have attacked others crudely for design errors you nevertheless most embraced. You did not pay to patent a Darrieus VAWT with an ST on top as a joke, but as your serious idea of a wind turbine breakthrough.

This is not a humor forum. Your "humor" is as flawed your patented AWE design. Surely your claim to have nine secret AWE solutions will turn out to be sheer bluff, to be rationalized as another stillborn attempt at humor,

daveS


On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:01 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14919 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
In this case we are reminded of prior art for the AWE driveshaft under LTA, which never panned-out, given scaling-law limitations and LTA economics. Its not a surprise Doug would object to each precise reminder.

Humans best remember by reviewing, and each time an advance in comprehension results. This is called the iterative spiral in engineering, and is best known from software engineering, but applies to all engineering. We also review AWE for talented newcomers to the Forum. Educational processes depend on review to attain mastery, and thereafter to maintain proficiency-

Spiral model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Spiral model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The spiral model is a risk-driven process model generator for software projects. Based on the unique risk patterns of a given project, the spiral model guides a tea...

View on en.wikipedia.org
Preview by Yahoo

 

 


On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:24 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14920 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
And now for something completely different: Kite-reeling!  :)))
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14921 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
"Doug, Its no joke to call everyone stupid all the time; its unprofessional."
*** I was not joking.  My comment was that you were too dumb to realize my previous post had been just a joke.  Obviously, a Superturbine(R) is exactly "a turbine on a turbine on a turbine".  That's how it got to be "super".  You can stop posturing now.  You post such stupid crap all day that it is hard to believe, and I'm not the first to notice.  And yes, this field IS FULL of STUPID people.  Nobody has any idea what they are doing or talking about here.  Are you going to tell me Magenn is not STUPID?  And that endless re-posting of pics of Magenn for years on end is not dumb?  Using the image a ridiculous, unworkable design, representing childlike thinking, to promote what SHOULD be a cutting edge art that would obviously require people who understood basic aspects of flight and wind energy?  Are you going to tell me it isn't stupid to promote a blimp elevating a complete wind turbine on Mars at 1/200th the air density of Earth?  How much more mileage do you think you can get from a steady diet of lies, delusion, and incompetence? Well, maybe it can be done, and if so, then I would be the stupid one. Hey, it could happen.  I am dumb too, every so often.  Actually, I think we are ALL challenged on a daily basis to not be ruled by our stupid side.  Now, if anyone wants to NOT be stupid, make something that works! 
And DaveS, I think we could ALL do without your idiotic lecturing, about things like 1990's "netiquette" and trying to nitpick a joke someone tells, like if for example someone substitutes the word wok for walk, and you find an opportunity to go "postal" as though suddenly you represent the pinnacle of political corectness and are in a position to be "the joke approval czar".  No, you are not a joke approval czar, you are a joke.  You accuse me of "complaining" while you hassle McConney for their use of the word Autonomous, or castigate me for using a few tanks of helium to have the only working demo at the first international AWE conference, while Wayne wastes the whole conference interrupting anyone who dares to speak.  Yeah, in case you didn't notice, this is mostly (disappointingly) IDIOT-LAND.  You are the prime example.  Why can't you just shut the hell up?  What is the matter with you? 
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14922 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

Test, test, test, remains my credo, as evidenced by my AWE work, which only continues. I cannot possibly test everything you would want me to, however, and you could do far more testing (like some WheelWind effort), even if your credo is "patent, patent, patent,...". I will continue to design and test turbines along the TE of a lifting arch, but set in HAWT position (like flaps-down example).

Lets be content for you testing your own patent ideas while I will seek and test better ideas, to try to invalidate any AWE patent that the inventor claims validly blocking, to further strengthen Open AWE. Its looking like there will not be any blocking patents, thanks to Open AWE work centered on the AWES Forum.

Go ahead and claim to French patent examiners that you did not in haste locate all the specific prior art mentioned in public here, due to the sheer quantity of general prior art (like in old patents still popping up, and ongoing defensive disclosures). Overlooked prior art can come out later, if the patents are ever used to attempt a cease-and-desist action against a qualified open developer.

You cannot complain that we did not do enough for you here, to support your due diligence research; nobody has ever publicly done more for an AWE patent aspirant, unpaid as well; and you still do not seem satisfied by the effort. When we find the hidden prior art again, we will post it,

daveS



On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:14 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14923 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Doug S., the Rotokite was joined in this RPS topic thread on the basis of use of parachute-like canopies.  That the Rotokite AWES uses kite reeling is certainly not new and not the news spot of your exclamation.  Inclusion is part of a comprehensive move. RPS will may be in AWES also by torsion and traction.  Having RPS as a focused topic is not to be construed as some announcement of "something new" but perhaps as an invitation to go after some maturation of RPS in AWES. 

Continuing:  Edgar G. Ewing
Publication numberUS2701697 A
Publication typeGrant
Publication dateFeb 8, 1955
Filing dateNov 14, 1949
Priority dateNov 14, 1949
InventorsEdgar G Ewing
Original AssigneeRadioplane Company
Export CitationBiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (9), Referenced by (11), Classifications (5)

External Links: USPTO, USPTO Assignment, Espacenet - Bibliographic data

 

Ewing cited: 

Cited PatentFiling datePublication dateApplicantTitle
US966143 *Apr 22, 1909Aug 2, 1910Walter Van WieRevolving kite.
US1112110 *Oct 7, 1909Sep 29, 1914Joseph E BissellAeroplane.
US2151349 *Oct 22, 1937Mar 21, 1939Fromme SamuelKite
US2365230 *May 21, 1942Dec 19, 1944Volf Christian AVented parachute with cone
US2384416 *Mar 17, 1944Sep 4, 1945Derry Frank MParachute
US2469573 *May 8, 1946May 10, 1949Cuthbert Quilter John RaymondParachute
US2559804 *Nov 12, 1947Jul 10, 1951Prevost F SmithParachute
DE680483C *Apr 6, 1933Aug 30, 1939Kurd Von HakenFliegerbombe fuer Kohlenstaubexplosionen
FR702971A *


Title not available

================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14924 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
"AWE driveshaft under LTA...never panned-out...scaling-law limitations and LTA economics...not a surprise Doug would object  *** U R an idiot
Your analysis misses every salient point.  Meaningless commentary from a know-nothing.  Your own lack of results speaks for itself.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14925 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
"RPS will may be in AWES also by torsion and traction." ***Joe, your antagonistic sidekick has stated in no uncertain terms, many times, that torsion CANNOT POSSIBLY be used for such an AWE scheme.  (Thcaling Lawth!) In fact, I think he repeated it again just a few minutes ago, trying to "prove" how dumb I am (while once again proving how dumb HE is).  Funny how just the other day, he was scolding someone else for posting their opinion as though it were fact.  DaveS: Posting every wrong opinion as fact - The KING of hypocrisy.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14926 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Doug,

By "lack of results" you willfully overlook a lot of actual AWE results, like KiteSat, which flew in public in Berlin last year, and is now under Chinese development by NTK. Overlook MegaKiteSat, the 4m HAWT under Mini-Mothra (with Ed). Overlook 2007, with a first public demo of cell-phone charging and a call to thank my mentor. Overlook pumping water, grinding, hammering, winching, and many many other unique AWE demos, in upper wind your ideas seemingly cannot reach. Overlook the the continued scaling-up of small working prototypes.

Even being the first to explain exactly why the ST will not scale to FAA targeted winds at 2000ft: That's a real result. Negligently overlook it all, as the established way you judge a "lack of results". All AWE teams currently active are conceptually and/or tangibly ahead of USWindLabs in AWE results.

We will continue to review AWE patents to reach results you can never accept, but others better-qualified obviously do. Worry about your own "lack of results" to be the "greatest living" wind inventor, rather than only overlook real AWE work by others in order to play the troll. Hats off to ST prior art in the patent record, given your unmatched hype, and glaring lack of results.

My shared claim is that serious testing will determine the best AWE engineering, and we expect good results. Good luck presenting progress of your own, rather than just complaining about imaginary problems (like Joe reviewing patents),

daveS






On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 9:38 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14927 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Doug,

You do call everyone stupid, and it really is no joke. No surprise, the attack best fits you; your best example of Magenn (cashed-out of AWE) did not do the stupid things only you do (like hype-and-gripe), and even did AWE better (at least higher) than your schemes. Your "cry "stupid" first" strategy is not working.

Magenn is considered a probable con-job by FredF, who raised at least 33 millions on Magnus balloon schemes over his career. This would therefore be a case of unethical tech investment promotion, not stupidity as such. At least you cannot be blamed (so far as we know) for fleecing investors, but your Darrieus VAWT sprouting an ST is more comically marginal than FredF's scheme. Try and name a truly stupider AWES architecture. Reeling has already surpassed anything you have proposed, even if its known as just a stepping-stone AWES architecture.

Never forget, "intentional stupidity" on the AWE Forum is your avowed specialty; an ideal pretext to overlook the wonderfully talented intelligence in our AWE community,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14928 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Doug S, you proved to conference attendees in 2009 in Chico, California, that your WEC of multi-rotor-bladed torque tube could generate electricity at a ground-stationed generator; it was obvious that you have had duplicates of what you demonstrated, perhaps 1,000 of the shown unities forming a wide AWES fence miles wide or miles deep; Santos' concerns seem to be about scaling challenges for the torque tube when considering reaching higher altitudes.   Rod Read has shown that parachutes rotating may generate electricity.   The fullness of RPS in AWE has yet to be storied.  Please post RPS notes in this RPS topic thread when interesting to you. 

Furthering:
Rota-Vane Parachute   
Patent US3228637 - Rota-vane parachute

 

circa 1964
Reinhold J. Gross

Tags: rotate, rotatable parachute, rotating parachute, 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14929 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
David T. Barish
circa 1961
Auto-rotating parachute and swivel
US 3118641 A

Patent US3118641 - Auto-rotating parachute and swivel

 

Consider PTO instead instead of swivel when mounting to an AWES tether.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14930 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Correcting my prior topic post from "that you have had duplicates" to "that if you have had duplicates"      Thanks.

===================================


Furthering topic:

Oscar W. Sepp, Jr.

circa 1959

Patent US2949266 - Rotating parachute

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14931 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
A small masterpiece by Barrish, the Master, inventor of SS paragliding 50yrs ahead of time.

This canopy today is a common "spin-chute" or "spin-basket" in kiting. The complex swivel is a method to address clutching in the context of parachute deployment from a pack. The modern "spinning-crown" seen at kite festivals seem to be growing in popularity. They are not designed to spin fast because the visual presentation would be a blur, and the risk of catching objects with the lines increases.

For AWES use, a spinning canopy develops more drag by sweeping its sail area. Anyone who can figure out an effective torque PTO basis would win a race that Dr. Beaujean, Pierre, Rod, and others have started. An alternative approach is pumping-with-rotation. Testing will determine if a winner emerges.

Airspace conspicuity enhancement is a good AWES app for a rotating canopy. The effect can be eye-catching motion or blinking colors, including night lighting.

Drogues with bridle pulleys are useful to tension rope-driving sections (continuous or pumping). A spinning drogue could serve in this role, if a secondary need for the spin exists.

CC 4.x BY NC SA

DaveG's selection of spinning rags (Barrish's design a bit too mundane to make this page)-

Gomberg Kites:Line Laundry -- Rotating Line Laundry






On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 11:25 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14932 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Variable length rope-driving (low-complexity way)
Review-

Cranework, remote logging, and log yarding offer close operational similarity cases to flexible AWES rope-driving, with mature solutions for every requirement. Train-cars and drilling-pipe are partial similarity cases of ultra-high tensile loads, with flexible lengths. Complex specialized line-handling mega-machinery is the lowest TRL for AWE now, even if attractive conceptual designs exist for future use.

For low-complexity AWE, a safety-rated main-line is set in the sky between a main anchor and primary lift means. A secondary rope-drive is deployed under the main-line, with a fixed-length loop (simplest case). Several loops of useful sizes can be stored ready to match conditions. A loop pattern language of segments and connectors is practical. Even human workers (roustabouts) are capable of wrestling large UHMPE rope segment connectors together at a ground station, for power rated loops jobs.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14933 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,


You wrote "...while I will seek and test better ideas, to try to invalidate any AWE patent that the inventor claims validly blocking...". Poor purpose! You are so negative, Mr. chameleon-like "report"!Which ingratitude you show while I give you the possibility of trying to transform your arch into workable AWES!

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14934 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: kPower's ongoing Restructuring for Growth
kPower management is once again busy restructuring the corporation for major growth, acting on specific encouragement by WOW SpA and the financial team. The US incorporation venue will move from Delaware to Texas, and the upgraded governance and equity plan will aspire to honor all stakeholder interests better than any other venture.

This is an Open Call for Participation, for anyone who want's to join the kPower team, to bring their value to the table. We need technologists and angels of every kind. Rod is asked to formally join the kPower board, to create representation and coordination with EU and the Kite Power Cooperative, under the Open Value model he champions. Small patent and CC IP holders are invited to license to the AWE IP Pool cooperative project, and get early development royalties flowing.

Recent tension between kPower engineering and management priorities is resolved*. kPower will represent the cause of AWE test engineering as its mission, vision, and business advantage, with no premature down-select. AWEfest planning and prepping is back on track, with fresh talent, bigger kites, and new seed funding. Wubbo's dying call for AWE powered music events will be faithfully honored. 

Official news soon, as it happens.
-----------------------------------------------------------

* Note: The recent "Heads Up" kPower post was an email accident, not the intentional AWE Manifesto some supposed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14935 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

Heli-Chute (TM)

Atair Aerospace

Atair Aerospace - Heli-Chute
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14936 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

Its not "negative" to champion open-knowledge over patents, but cause for joy. If your patent is not valid, but the idea is worthy, it will test well and prevail as open-knowledge. Sorry if my turbine-in-a-sail AWES experiment did not encourage me to continue placing turbines in that way. Good luck with your own tests, to prove me mistaken.

The positive news is that a HAWT placed more like your flygen under the best kite delivers maximum power-to-weight, but that's an open idea. Imagine how sad if it were not!

daveS


On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 1:15 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14937 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
The Altair heli-chute is like a sibling to AWE's Daisy.

The world is not done exploring "rotating parachutes", but continues to progress the idea.


On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:03 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14938 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)

The Parachute Lab

Parachute Lab. Testing in wind / water tunnels, in free flight.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14940 From: dave santos Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Nice find, Joe,

Another lost kite world; 
Vintage Russian rag-and-string science. 
Old Web. A RetroMine, dead links like a crumb trail
 to further buried treasure. 

----------------------------

Could also be a NASA photos echoing back...




On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 3:54 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14941 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
Popular Mechanics
November 1955
page 133
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14943 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
The morons of the world:  Slowly rediscovering the wind turbine rotor.  No matter that it has all been explained to them.  To us (in wind), it's a joke.  They first fly a kite in figure-8's, and we tell them "Hey Ace, save yourself some grief and try a rotor".  We explain that rotors first started out, 2000 years ago, as what these incurable morons can only understand as "kites" in a circle, but the ignorant press on, announcing as a "breakthrough" their "discovery" of a circular path!  (You can't make this stuff up! - that's the point where Google buys them up and the newborn-baby founder mysteriously dies of old age - mmmm hmmmm...) Again, we try to explain, if they refuse to use a proper rotor, AT LEAST the concept of balancing the circling kite with a second kite will get them to a stable configuration.  When someone not QUITE as idiotic as a DaveS (with his NON-balanced solo, circling kite, that in spite of circling, he uses to pull intermittently (can't make this stuff up!), believing torque transmission is "impossible due to scaling laws") actually DOES follow our advice to those who refuse to give up kites and at LEAST use 2 opposing kites, WE who told them to do so get no credit, and the DaveS' and JoeF's of the world act like these kite-reeling yo-yo's have actually discovered something new!!!  You can't make this stuff up!  Nice - a watered-down almost-SuperTurbine(R) with no way to get the power out of it.  Good going, Ace!  At this rate, it will take the morons another couple of decades to "discover" the wind turbine rotor (and then they'll probably claim to have "invented" it.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14944 From: dougselsam Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre: Don't pay any attention to DaveS in regard to anything technical or patent-related.  He understands neither topic.  His uneducated comments on patentability are less than worthless.  Hold your ground and work on what you think is right, and when you get it all working, you can always find some salient aspect to get valid patent coverage, if you even WANT a patent, which can be a mixed blessing.  (Many inventors do not even use patents)  When the time comes, if you are drawing a blank, ask a patent attorney, or ask me and I might be able to help.  Sometimes it just requires a fresh set of eyeballs with patent knowledge.  Don't be swayed by a naysayer like DaveS.  If he has proven anything by now, it's that he knows nothing, and just (really really) likes to bother people, while trying to somehow seem "in charge", which he is not.  Carry on, and don't let people like that ruin your day.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14945 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rotating Parachute Systems (RPS)
General link for multiple hits on the string http://tinyurl.com/VortexRingParachute
approximately 55000 hits
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14946 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Gyroplane Rotor Blades
Gyroplane Rotor Blades
General link: