Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14840to14889 Page 192 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14840 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14841 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14842 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14843 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: freeware single skin designer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14844 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14845 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14846 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14847 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14848 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14849 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14850 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14851 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14852 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14853 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14854 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14855 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14856 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14857 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14858 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14859 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14860 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14861 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14862 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14863 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14864 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14865 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14866 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14867 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14868 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14869 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14870 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14871 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14872 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14873 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14874 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14875 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14876 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14877 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14878 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14879 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14880 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14881 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14882 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14883 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14884 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14885 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14886 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14887 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14888 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14889 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14840 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14841 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Was Robert's prototype "advanced" when they generated electricity? Were the Santos and Tracy prototypes "advanced"?  DaveS charged a cell phone and then called Dave Culp with that charge; the AWES worked just fine in 2007 (?); duplicates of the AWES could have been made and sold around the world; the system could have been multiplied to form a farm; scaling up could have been done also; the system was using a pilot lifter kite holding in isolated flow a HAWT turbine flygen; formatted electricity was sent to the ground to serve the designated load; the rotor had two blades. 

    So, what is a prototype? What is an advanced prototype?   How does the term "prototype" fit into the culture of Technology readiness level - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

?????

One offer found: a first, typical or preliminary model of something, especially a machine, from which other forms are developed or copied.

"the firm is testing a prototype of the AWES" 


Other offers are found within 

Prototype - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 


What 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14842 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

So I indicate for the fifth time my own tries in front of a ventilator 28 cm in diameter: rotor 15 cm in diameter; structure 45 cm in external diameter, 18 cm in internal diameter of hole. Facing flow: no visible difference rotor alone and rotor within the hole; the same with tilted rotor. Other tries are current. See also DougS's advice about more wind in the hole, in opposition to DaveS's and Joef's opinion about chocked flow.
At least these divergences show that in-plan set of soft kite and rotors has not been studied as possible AWES since there is not relevant enough prior art about it. Note for JoeF: it is sure when rotors are integrated in a soft kite, the result is different from both the initial kite and rotors: the initial kite becomes an AWES.

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14843 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: freeware single skin designer
If you want to do some excellent quick cheap modelling of single skin kites.



Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14844 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Joe: No matter WHAT words you may choose to describe various projects, that does not change the projects ONE IOTA.  You can call something "a prototype", "an ADVANCED prototype", or "a salami sandwich", and it makes no difference. 

What you are doing here is playing around with word definitions (again) - that's it!  Nothing more.  SO what does that accomplish?  Are you planning to do AWE or are you planning to compete with Webster's Dictionary to, in some way, "prove" that some flailing lack-of-an-effort is actually cutting edge research, or what? 

I wish you could move beyond playing around with redefining words all day, every day.  Nobody is going to "redefine" their way to AWE.  Words only describe what we do, but the more important thing is what we actually DO, not so much what words we use to describe a given configuration.

You say of one configuration: "duplicates of the AWES could have been made and sold around the world" - Oh really?  Yeah, and I could have run for mayor - except for one little detail:  I didn't.  And you couldda been a rock star.  Or a stunt hang-glider pilot doing loops with a smoke canister.

To say that a project worked so well it "could have" been sold around the world and multiplied to make a "farm" seems suspect.  You're saying this thing worked so well it could have powered many people's homes, but just nobody bothered?  Either the promoter actually solved the energy crisis and just lacked follow-through, or perhaps, if you looked a little more closely, the actual product was lacking. 

If your measure of performance is that someone could "claim" to have "charged a phone and made a call", you already know there could be a few unresolved details in this "success story".  Couldda, shouldda, wouldda, and then back to playing around trying to fine-tune a (very) "special" dictionary just for you and Dave S. - what is the point?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14845 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
"Doug, Its true, AWE is very ancient," - DAVeS  *** OK so then you DISAGREE that AWE is "a newborn baby" then, right?  A "newborn baby" is not "very ancient".  Make up your mind.  You know what I think?  I think if, after all you guys have said, all the promises (verging on threats) of your guys' "future impact" on wind energy, (always in the future) faced with nothing to show for it after this many years, you now pretend to have "lost focus" as to what AWE even IS, and now wanna play "Mr. Dictionary" as though,with enough word redefinitions, you can pretend that zero progress somehow equates to "ultimate success".  To cite a project and say it "could have" been "sold around the world" and "could have been multiplied to create windfarms" is either delusional and wrong, or you guys dropped the ball.  If someone really had an AWE setup that worked that well, with a windfarm level of performance, why would they go on "searching for an answer" spending all day arguing about "flipping" and "flopping" systems on the internet?  At some point you guys just have to admit, most of what you post on here makes no sense.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14846 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
The quotation is "Altaeros is the actual leader within AWE advanced prototypes". *** Except we don't know if it is even working...  And if it were "advanced", maybe it wouldn't have that big hole in the center?  It does not appear, to me, from the photos, that this configuration accelerates the airflow to the rotor anyway.  The tunnel appears way bigger than the rotor, and does not seem to constrict the flow, but appears to have a constant cross-section.  Maybe it's just the angle of the photos, but that's my visual take.  Beyond that, at least they are trying something rather than just redefining words all day, but it would be nice to have some follow-up info on a realtime basis.  I would point out that, when there are good results, it is difficult to resist letting the world know about it.  Anyway, after all that hype, curious minds would like to know...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14847 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
"Doug, You are missing the glorious Kite Revolution in willful despair."
*** I wish you would shut up.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14848 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Doug S, 
1. Pierre B. made a statement about Altaeros using a generally useful term "prototype." And "advanced prototype."

2. I started a topic thread on the term. 

3. I made no redefinition of the term.  It would be neat if you do not put up the paper tiger claiming the untenable about what I am doing; you claim the untenable that I am redefining.  I am busy in this topic thread unfolding what others have done with the term "prototype."  I want to get on the same page with participants. 

4. I gave links to cultural unfolding of the term.     In stating that DaveS' item "could" have been duplicated and sold around the world, I was illustrating that the item could have been duplicated and sold around the world.  Such implicitly was saying (I hope) that the materialized prototype was adequate and worthy enough to fulfill a defined purpose effectively, so that aware consumers or users would not be disappointed.   A thing need not be more than it is; that DaveS chose to archive the item and not go into production on the item does not make less the potential observed. 

5. Engineering, developing, planning, product launching, research and development are processes that are playing in RAD. There are various sorts of "prototypes" playing various roles in those processes. Awareness of just what is occurring in a creative process with regard to a certain type of prototype may play to make investments bring fulfillment of objectives in efficient ways. 
6. Prototyping may even be digital within simulation programs. Materialization into a type of prototype may vary for various reasons in a creative process. 

7. Communicating team members use language; if the term "prototype" is used ... and perhaps with an adjective that specializes the term for various stages in a creative process, then it may be positively helpful if people were understanding one another by agreement of meaning of the terms they use.  Checking oneself on term meanings while being part of a team or community may well be a positive action.  Larger projects may exercise many gradations of prototypes. 

8. Distinguishing prototype from non-prototype product can be part of a company's unfolding. 

9. The study exercise over Robert's early working models or over Santos' early working models may naturally include an observation of potential of duplication into product status. A moment of estimating over facts need not be shunned; filing the early model or prototype and going to further changed arrangements is a common happening.  No bad in filing a prototype while going further or different. 

10. Quite good are some of the inspiring things that may arrive upon prototyping; one might see further than one did before handling a prototype. 

11. You are welcome to shun distinctions, potential unfolding, and ordinary study.   But others might profit from knowing and using distinctions, collecting potentials, and from study; such actions need not delay forwarding projects, but may well help forward projects.
   
12. Getting on the same page when sharing things through text may take attention and care. 

13. I am materializing for RAD; and in the process I care about various kinds of prototypes that I make and fly. There are prototypes for strict experimental purpose; there are prototypes for consumer AWES. 

14. Sharing potentials to the entire world may give something that will let a particular person choose one among a multitude of potentials for local actualization.  I appreciate people developing shared text that spell out potentials; even though the sharing potential person may not be investing in the potentials, someone might decide to invest his or her life to develop a read or heard potential.  

15. Some prototypes reveal deep fails; duplicating such prototypes into consumer products would duplicate the fails involved.   One may examine a prototype and determine if such could be duplicated for use by others with effective and safe operation; some: yes; some: no. A smart answering of questions over a prototype is common practice.  Is this one a go? Or what should we change about it? Shall we make another iteration for a new prototype?  Etc.   Estimating how the future would look using hypotheticals over a given prototype may provide ideas for actions to forward the global project. 

16. Doug, you introduced the "so well" term.   I only noted that a kite farm of DaveS' AWES worked and that kite farming such was possible. Saying such is not saying that the item and farm would displace utility-scale conventional wind farms in a competing market. But it is saying that a farm of such items would be producing electricity for driving loads ... more than one isolated working item.  Gathering the electricity from a million of the items would net more electricity than a single item.  Pleasing a particular buyer of goods may or may not occur with such a kite farm.  Appreciating an item for itself does not force that a winner has been found in a competition against other options.  The AWE GAMES have barely started; when such games mature for various scales and purposes, the filed prototypes may be pulled out to compete. Following open competition events will probably find teams making further prototypes to be trialed in some next competition.     
         [[Where might we get some large prize money for competitions among prototypes?
         The HPA Kremer prizes have spurred innovation in HPA. ]]

Best. 
 ~ JoeF
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14849 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

The blimp and its tunnel look a little tilted: so air flow comes down instead of moving forward horizontally.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14850 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Be aware that "choked flow" in a venturi (a crude wing-hole, in this case) is a wide spectrum, from slightly-slowed to effectively-stopped.

What I observed was no appreciable boost by placing the wind rotor in the sail-wing. I presume the disappointing lack of boost to was due to partial choking just as JoeF describes (the rotor was driven much as if no sail at all was present).

This is a crazy amount of posts for an idea that is both old and not too great. What is the new inventive leap Pierre is claiming? How can he patent it if he tells us what it is first? If he is not telling, what is he pushing here?



On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:26 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14851 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Doug,

You always seem to wander off-topic. Its irate crankiness to rail against Franklin's baby metaphor, when the real issue is to encourage our readers to create AWE know-how

We are in fact working with a modern incarnation of the kite for modern apps, like electricity foremost. Franklin is reasonably counted as a modern figure next to Mo Tzu, who may well have known of fire balloons long before Franklin witnessed a balloon flight. You need to understand relative time scales better (and not be so disturbed and distracted). For example, its quite apt to call the Big Island in Hawaii a "newborn-baby", or even see it as still being born, as a scientific case.

You could add to this LTA topic what your helium experience taught you, in good humor, if your learned anything at all,

daveS




On Monday, September 29, 2014 8:50 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14852 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"What I observed was no appreciable boost by placing the wind rotor in the sail-wing." What a change! Before power descreases and now power does not increase so much... Here is the high quality of DaveS's "report". DaveS should thank me to indicate a workable configuration of Arch.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14853 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14854 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

Perhaps Pierre misunderstands that "advanced technology" in nuanced English does not mean "mature" or "completed" as such, but the most-advanced historically and conceptually. In AWE, it is proposed that LTA-flygen is conceptually old and marginal, and that many more advanced concepts and prototypes exist (like parafoil, kiteplane, or megascale AWES).

Let Doug be the champion of willfully not understanding the language of aerospace (like scaling-limits) and let no progress be the result. He is wrong to pop-up as a Net troll here, when what Joe wants is to advance engineering science by linguistic disambiguation.


On Monday, September 29, 2014 9:48 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14855 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
We should let AWE teams have due time to work before condemning them for lack of news. Altaeros has not been around nearly as long as USWindlabs, and does have far more news.

Joe, I am very much against bothering working teams like Altaeros, at Doug's irate instigation. We become less than our best selves by adopting his agenda.

Its very near the time that players who only complain will be left behind by those who only advance.


On Monday, September 29, 2014 9:58 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14856 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Some disclosure has been made recently, after the date of filling (08/22/2014), and after some disposition of French law.So there is no problem. Morever some features from said pending patent are not yet disclosed.
 
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14857 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

DaveS,
 
Perhaps you understand nothing.
 
PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14858 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

My report was "disappointment", not "power decreases". I wanted to see a strong boost, but did not; and my (and Joe's) explanation for a lack of strong boost seems reasonable. Be patient with our language barrier if exact meaning matters.

When you review the many defensive-disclosure sketches over the years, you will find many in-wing rotors depicted in arches. Rod's versions are not limited to pulley driving. There are several other known instances (old patents, LAGI, etc.). We really have no idea what new idea you are claiming to have patented,

daveS




On Monday, September 29, 2014 11:14 AM, "'Pierre Benhaiem' pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14859 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
I really do struggle to understand you, Pierre, but do not give up trying.

Regarding your questioning of WECS-on-a-WECS concepts; its like when the Romans long ago came to Orange, a native Gaulois saw them building a two-story building, and declared, "how stupid of these foreigners to put a building on a building!" :)

Does the idea of a WECS-on-a-WECS (multi-stage device) still seem absurd to you?


On Monday, September 29, 2014 11:19 AM, "'Pierre Benhaiem' pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14860 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: AWES with sound as purpose
Centuries-old AWES that have sound as a focused purpose introduce a special family of AWES. 
Members of the sound-making have arrived in many varieties.  What will the future hold for this 
sound-AWES branch?  Probably every operating AWES makes some sound; but when the sound is a dominating purpose, 
then membership in the branch seems appropriate.  Else, the default sound may simply be considered as part of the cost of converting the wind's energy for other energy formats.  

Here is one sound turbine set in a keel of and AWES where the inventor is also focused on getting "sparkling" as a benefit.
https://www.google.com/patents/US4336915

===================

Invited in this topic thread are notes and discussion of AWES specially making sound for various purposes. 
  • Music
  • Avalanche triggering
  • Animal herding
  • Entertainment
  • Signaling
  • ?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14861 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
WECS-on-a-WECS concepts...a two-story building... "how stupid...to put a building on a building!" :)  And how "stupid" to put a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine...on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine...on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine on a turbine...on a turbine.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14862 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,

You have changed the words of your "report". Probably your pocket containing the "report" is pierced. But it is not so important: with the hole in your pocket you can built an prior art by putting a turbine by a better way than what you quote.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14863 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
"Centuries-old AWES that have sound as a focused purpose introduce a special family of AWES."
*** Reminds me of Steve Martin's "special purpose" in his movie "The Jerk"
"Members of the sound-making have arrived in many varieties.  What will the future hold for this 
sound-AWES branch?" ***Ahem. - answer: nothing?  No wait: The future will be vast arrays of noisemaking AW systems - noise will replace electricity as the way to power the planet.  JoeF and DaveS will be in charge of giant arrays of noisemaking kites above NYC, complete with spotted mushrooms.  The residents of NYC will abandon their apartments in favor of walking the skyways of JoeF and DaveS' noisemaking "kite-city".  At no point will anyone generate any electricity or do anything useful for anyone, at any time.  DaveS will occupy a special kite-suspended office from which he will continually hassle people using the internet, starting with anyone using helium, lest they reduce "the reserves" since we need to save all helium for DaveS in case he ever wants to use some.  The whole thing will fall down as soon as the wind stops, and out of the wreckage the populace will construct an insane asylum to hold the founders, to keep them from undertaking any more crazy "projects".

OK, OK, OK, how about this Joe:  We have a lot of wind here in the desert, and a real problem with animals eating anything that anyone tries to grow.  Fruit trees can grow great here, but the starving bird population gets all the fruit before people can have a chance.  Maybe noisemaking kites can be used as "scarecrows".  Probably an old idea, and the birds would just eat the fruit on days with no wind.  Oh well, back to the skies above NYC.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14864 From: dougselsam Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
"We should let AWE teams have due time to work before condemning them for lack of news."  ***Yeah, who needs real info?  Its the initial HYPE we care about!  Newsflash for DaveS: asking about progress is not condemning anyone.  Let's hear the news!  Sounds like you have no faith in the Altaeros effort.  Seems like you don't wanna know how their project is working.  Oh well, keep your head in the sand and continue with your misplaced, butt-licking, fake hero-worship of any agency using initials for its name.

"Altaeros has not been around nearly as long as USWindlabs, and does have far more news."  *** USWINDLABS has learned not to make empty promises ahead of the facts.  I have plenty of news, you just haven't heard it.

"Joe, I am very much against bothering working teams like Altaeros, at Doug's irate instigation."  *** Yeah, cuz Doug is "bad" while everyone else is "good".  Doug wants facts.  He is curious.  There's no place for that here.

"We become less than our best selves by adopting his agenda." ***You became less than your best self a long time ago, and show no sign of recovering

"Its very near the time that players who only complain will be left behind by those who only advance."  ***Says the king of complaint, DaveS, who spent a LOT of time complaining about how much helium Doug wasted filling a few balloons for his demo.  PICK a lane, DaveS the king of complaint.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14865 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Doug,

If a turbine on a turbine is "stupid" (Payne, Loyd, Makani, etc.), then you win the distinction most. Recall your patenting of a Darrieus turbine with an ST sprouting from the top.

You last post marks a new low, both technically and emotionally,

daveS


On Monday, September 29, 2014 11:46 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14866 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

Without any interest. Kite systems with sound as purpose are not AWES since there is no usefull wind energy conversion. HAWT, being WECS by definition, generate some electricity production, avoiding noise... AWES must be the same, adding airborne component. 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14867 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?

DaveS,

"You last post marks a new low, both technically and emotionally," (to DougS) perhaps for falling at your level for a well-balanced conversation.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14868 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

Where did I say "power decreases" for the high-AoA (stalled) case (where I hoped for a big boost)? Yes, the power definitely decreases when the wing with rotor enbedded is low-AoA, compared to a HAWT rotor set like your flygen, as theoretically predicted as well.

Be aware, we still have no idea what you are claiming is your novel AWES invention here,

daveS




On Monday, September 29, 2014 11:58 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14869 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"Yes, the power definitely decreases when the wing with rotor enbedded is low-AoA, compared to a HAWT rotor set like your flygen, as theoretically predicted as well." Confuse comparison between low-AoA rotor embedded and non embedded HAWT. You should stop arguing on your chameleon "report" making a negative contribution particulary on the present topic.
"Be aware, we still have no idea what you are claiming is your novel AWES invention here,"

You have no ideas and you do not know how to read (see explains in this topic). 

 

PierreB

http://flygenkite.com






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14870 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Doug,

Altaeros ongoing news is real enough; it just pisses you off: They have raised millions as MIT golden-boys, with current top mindshare, and working prototypes slated for Alaskan testing. I have made clear my theoretic critique of their LTA architecture, but am in no hurry to be proven right. Let their test run without being pissed-in-advance.

So USWindlabs thinks it has secret news? But news that its afraid to share, out of risk of more "empty promises" ("All Roads Lead to the SuperTurbine (TM)")? Then hurrah; USWindlabs has "learned" a fine lesson. The next lesson is not to be so hopeless about all the rest of AWE. We are sorry for you that USWindLabs' unmatched AWE hype has not panned-out.

Please recognise greatness throughout the AWE community, not just proclaim yourself as "greatest", and calling everyone else "stupid",

daveS




On Monday, September 29, 2014 12:12 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14871 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose

1. HAWT do make noise when operating.
2. Kite systems are AWES, as they convert wind energy to other formats of energy. Sound is made by AWES. Some AWES that specialize in making sound for purpose may be studied and advanced by those persons interested in such type of AWES. 
3. HAWT is one type of WEC.  Other types of WEC exist. 
4. Some HAWT are dedicated to other than electricity production; some are dedicated to using converted energy to grinding, for instance, not driving electrical generators. 
5. AWES are systems that have airborne components.
6. Positive additions to this topic are invited. 
7. AWES that specialize in making sound are using wind energy captured to make the sound. 
8. We note that both flygen electric producers and groundgen electric producers may be utilized to drive sound makers; AWE Fest is proposing such sound making via the intermediary of electricity. 
9. The frequencies produced by the sound AWES vary. Texture of the sound varies. Intensity of the sound may vary. 
10. Purposes of sound varies widely. Uncover pointed means and killer sound app for a sounding AWES and perhaps become a millionaire. 
11. We keep in mind that sound AWES in this community includes sound in other fluids other than air. So, look to sound in water for purposeful applications. 
12. Note that the sound of any AWES working for any purpose might be part of status watching for the system. 
13.  Sound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia      is a developing article, yet incomplete.

   14. The sounds of any AWES may become important to installation neighbors. The quality of the sounds may become key matters. 


15. Sound may be a useful distraction in some scenes. 

16. Could sounds from above help unite a stressed people into peace?

17. Sound may be made aloft in an AWES by various means. One means is to make electricity aloft and then use that electricity to drive sound radiators. 

18. Sound may be structured to results that are perceived as language, as music, as disturbing noise, ...

19. Included are sounds that are not audible by the human ear but effective to other sensors. 

20. How helpful might ultrasound be in rainmaking?  Click through.

21. This has been mentioned in our community before, but I join it here for relevance: 

Literature on Kite Musical Instruments, Aeolian Instruments and pigeon flutes/ pigeon whistles

22. ?   

 



---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14872 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Prototype? Advanced prototype?
Pierre,

Doug has the lowest opinion of Altaeros' prototype work, while you insist its the most advanced of all. Both views seem misplaced. My view of Altaeros is the more balanced middle position, between the two extremes you and Doug posed,

daveS


On Monday, September 29, 2014 12:33 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14873 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
Adding: Recall years ago Dave S. noting several matters concerning sound generated aloft and then embedded in AWES tethers. The tether-held sounds may be used for system status profile. Or for driving ground-based transducers even electric generators. Work in this special space is invited to be disclosed in this topic thread.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14874 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Joe, Rod,

Do you understand what Pierre is claiming as novel? I am sorry, but I only see ideas we have long pondered and amply discussed. If nobody can tell what Pierre is trying to claim as original, then its not my fault; he just needs to explain better,

daveS

PS My informal experimental results did not satisfy either Pierre's or my hopes. Let anyone replicate the experiments, to remove all doubts.



On Monday, September 29, 2014 1:08 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14875 From: Rod Read Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
OK, to get over it get on and answer your questions
well how about a combination if you will ...
Sorry eugh but I have to mix the genes of the projects up again...
The evolutionary result is a new hypothetical framing of our energy per lift quest into; How much lift does it take to encompass the energy?
and then gives rise to an architecture of
Daves' overarching and Pierres and mines spun blades and sock kites.
To solve the question of; How much kite does it take to extract x energy from this weather volume?
OK to do this
So lay on the ground (eugh sorry) a hex array of winch points able to take pull input and electrical input from an overhead hexagonal line array .
In the cell centres have hexagonal sheet attached by winch tether.
The taught hex sail (say that carefully) has controllable billow lines from a ring on the inside of the sail to each corner of cell.
Allowing for a field size array of X * Y km (with x km avoidance if necessary) and a target altitude of rise of Height km
Given allowance for stepped regenerative cell tether release from any winch programmed to release.
How many layers of grid can lift at what extent of power gain, at which given spacings and parameters of blade, sock, billow angle, tether release equivalents over the arrayed sheets, etc... many parameters available ... and allowing cell nodes to slide over a co-join shared tri-tether line
This is usually how a paper would start.
But just get on and fly the darned kite...
Do that & we know; How much lift it takes to over-arch a flow of energy, whilst raising generators into a frame.
Then answer
How much energy can we extract now that we have the lift sorted and a framework for generation in place.
Adjust the kixel billow aperture to increase the face of a spin device centred therein e.g.
Electric and or Driven line loops from a wheel tether at the front of the spinner sends what energy return?
Then
allow the socks and blades to spin. You produce an answer to; How much energy can we now extract from this volume of flow whilst maintaining grid integrity with tensioned rigidity over all parts as needed?
I might have to do some simulation of that
But only really when tried...
Can we answer all of yon ponderings I suspect
CC4.0 NC BY SA if there was anything useful there

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
UK
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14876 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
It has been fuzzy for me; I am not clear of novelty claim. My guess so far is the having rotors  in holes of a soft kite with rotor disk matching the local sail "plane" for making electricity.     
    If that is close, then I started some countering that old art has rotors in holes of planar construction in kited wings. Rotors are variously in old art in kited wings for entertainment, for making sounds, for making electricity.  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14877 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES with sound as purpose
Sound is a form of energy. Pierre once again demands the "E" in "AWE" to only mean what he allows; but we respect the correct physics definitions here, which see AWE WECS and wind starting as phonon-based, and allows "energy conversion" also to be from wind-phonons into application phonons.

Wikipedia, as usual, supports Joe and my positions on this question-

Energy transformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Acoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Acoustics is the interdisciplinary science that deals with the study of all mechanical waves in gases, liquids, and solids including topics such as vibration, sound...

View on en.wikipedia.org
Preview by Yahoo

 

 


On Monday, September 29, 2014 1:45 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14878 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Thanks Joe. 

My demo was a flygen, the LAGI entry concept also, and Laurie's Wind Dam also, so Pierre cannot claim priority for that aspect.


On Monday, September 29, 2014 1:59 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14879 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"My guess so far is the having rotors  in holes of a soft kite with rotor disk matching the local sail "plane" for making electricity."
 Yes.And can you say exactly the same for any document in prior art? My opinion is no for suspended (super)turbines, no for ST of which axis follow the frame of arch (rotors being perpendicular,so being not aligned,preventing the existence of kite-arch) ,no for pulleys, no for trains of balloon-kites with integrated turbines (rotor disk matching one or other side of balloon-kite, the set not forming an appreciably flat-set) , no for integrated whistle...

And have cited documents or videos the purposes of both scaling-up in surface (not possible with volumes like for balloon-kites) without a forest of tethers,and take-off and landing? I do not see any document about such purposes. And my analysis is: suspended WECS cannot, trains of balloon-kites cannot, pulleys cannot...


PierreB

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14880 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
LAGI and the Wind Dam count as documented. There was also a German Spinnaker with a HAWT set in the sail. The LAGI entry was electrical and kite-based. Fig 27 of that old patent counts for me (that modern soft kites and electrical generation are obvious options), even showing the KiteLab non-recommended (mid-chord) position along with the recommended (TE-Flap) position.

Let all the other documents show up in due time. kPower has the prototype used in the experiments, as shown in the photo located somewhere in the font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:13px;">
On Monday, September 29, 2014 2:33 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14881 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,

 

JoeF's words "...having rotors  in holes of a soft kite with rotor disk matching the local sail "plane" for making electricity." So Laurie's Wind Dam does not describe a kite but a sail settled between gorges. Words have sense, for example a plane is not an helicopter. Besides your "demo" is not referenced and his "report" (with a tiny description) is different each time, so it is not possible to take it into account. A link for LAGI please? But instead of quibbling it would not be more positive to study the problems (other than imagined problems by your "report") and the possible variants, for you the sharer? 

PierreB,

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14882 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre

The LAGI entry was also discussed on the Forum. Many links to find, but you may need to do this work yourself, if you are in a hurry.

You have deliberately not read (or not understood) many Forum posts (especially mine), from personal preference, so you may now discover you missed something important. There was also Forum discussion of a fabric of flygen turbines for AWE, as inspired by wind-wall hurricane research. The idea of turbines located in the wing-flap (flap-down) position was the final refinement proposed.

We are giving you the clues needed to do your research, but don't make us do everything. Please be patient when you ask for Forum content review and old links that you willfully neglected at the time. Many of us are busy with hot new ideas, and can't cover your patent research due-diligence need for an idea considered "old-hat",

daveS






On Monday, September 29, 2014 3:10 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14883 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14884 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,

"Many of us are busy with hot new ideas". Please where are your "hot new ideas"? In your pierced pocket with your chameleon-like report?

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14885 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14886 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Attachments :


    Pierre,

    Hot new AWE ideas are regularly reported to the Forum (and, yes, can be shared on a smart phone). A recent example are the DS IFO variants (snakes, loops, etc.) working across IFO-suited wind shears newly identified (like convective cloud faces). Many other ideas are "hot" to us. If you cannot think of any at all, the fault is yours.

    The new attached image (using an Aympx starting image) shows the flap-down in-flap turbines concept presented before verbally, as the lesson of experiments and theory discussed, as CC 4.x BY NC SA

    daveS


    On Monday, September 29, 2014 4:00 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    		  @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14887 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
    Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
    Hard-masted untethered sails are not kites; but tethered sails un-hard-masted are kite systems. 
    The shown wind-dam sail is flying tethered to the earth and un-hard-masted; it is a kite system. 
    The sails of kite systems are the wing part of the kite systems. We know of Play-Sail kites shown
    in video and play; we know of the Rogallo sails that are the wing of kite systems. A flying sail resisted by tethers which tether anchor to moving or non-moving anchor media form kite systems. We have two-line arch sail kite systems; we have four-line arch kite sail systems; the count of tethers used to let sails kite may be a very high count or just one. Some sailboats have kite sails where the sail is the wing of the kite system used to sail the hull; such sail kites are with wing sail not hard masted, but only freely restrained by tethers.  Wanting the shown kite system to be not a kite system does not make it a non-kite system. 
    ~ JoeF
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14888 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/29/2014
    Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
    On page 108 of http://www.drachen.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Santos_Part4.pdf  might be something on topic. 
    A hole in a kite's sail partly filled with a bladed rotor or other type of rotor in the hole space may be consider a shrouded rotor. Shrouded rotors have the shroud as part of wind-impacted face of a system; so looking at shrouded rotors seems kin to the topic. 

    Also on page 116 of same PDF seems like it might feature a bunch of rotors set in a wind-impacting surface. 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14889 From: dave santos Date: 9/29/2014
    Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
    Joe,

    While I agree with your logic, its more efficient to show clear prior art to Pierre, since he is resistant to your subtle arguments. I found Rod's examples sufficed (and Rod also thought so). It would help if you can concur, and also only offer the strongest cases. Otherwise, this is an extraordinary amount of discussion going nowhere exciting. Its quite clear that Pierre is so emotionally (and maybe financially) invested in this idea he thinks is novel, that only the starkest evidence can break the spell.

    It must be shown that flygen rotors embedded flat in a wing is a publicly known and rather obvious AWES idea. That this concept is not performance-optimal, by known inherent defects, is a separate issue to be shown separately,

    daveS


    On Monday, September 29, 2014 4:23 PM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com