Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14790to14939 Page 191 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14790 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14791 From: Harry Valentine Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14792 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14793 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14794 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14795 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14796 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14797 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14798 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14799 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14800 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14801 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14802 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14803 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14804 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14805 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14806 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14807 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14808 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14809 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14810 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14811 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14812 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14813 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14814 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14815 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14816 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14817 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14818 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14819 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14820 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14821 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14822 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14823 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14824 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14825 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14826 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14827 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14828 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14829 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14830 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14831 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14832 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14833 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14834 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14835 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14836 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14837 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14838 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14839 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14790 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Labrador's set of patents touch in relevance utility-scale electrical production: 
"This invention deals with the maximization of efficiency in fluid deflection for the purpose of maximizing conversion of the energy of fluids in motion"     Quote from his http://www.google.com/patents/US6327994

 

Wings showing balloon elements does not prevent one skilled in the attending arts from knowing the obvious that the set of balloon elements to form a broad-faced lifting surface may be substituted with any known wing-format that resided in the public-domain arts of wings.    Note too that "balloon" does not necessarily impose LTA ballooning; indeed inflated bag elements may be simply air inflated as in air beams. 

~ JoeF
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14791 From: Harry Valentine Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Several weeks ago, I came across a case of a widow in Florida being evicted from the home that she owned . . . the penalty for violating a state law that forbids off-grid homes.
 
In California, homeowners are restricted to a vertical height of 30-feet above ground . . . go higher with your little wind tower, you run afoul of the law.

Several states are now taking issue with owners of off-grid homes

With regard to AWE, small-scale power generation of 2kW to 5kW output is an important market niche for such technology . . . especially in rural areas. Such a market niche exists internationally and especially across Central and South America, across most of Africa and in many parts of Asia.

With regard to grid-scale AWE, I would regard such technology as being in the very distant future. Technology such as Kite-gen capable of 10MW or more, would have application at small, remote communities internationally. Be wonderful if such technology could be developed to 100MW or 150MW, except that such output from a single generator driven by kites, may be decades in the future.

At the present time, the 3-bladed-turbines-on-tower sector is developing higher towers with larger diameter turbines capable of 10MW at offshore locations.


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 07:48:25 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integrated in a soft kite, the set forming a plane surface.

 


​I keep stumbling over the title of this topic for the following reason:
The title notes strongly "soft kite" but the wings in the kite systems promoted by PierreB are not "soft kite" devices, but rather non-soft sticked-winged kite systems. ​ Rotored turbines set in soft-kite winged kite systems would be a special challenge. 

As to the note about "possibilities":: Some people might be overwhelmed with the vast space of possibilities in AWE; maybe, if that is the case for a particular person, perhaps tunnel focus posting could resolve the overwhelm.   Other workers may not be overwhelmed with the space of possibilities; my guess is that there are knowledge tools that may help handle the huge space of possibilities; as such tools are applied to the vast table of possibilities, some comfort might arrive even for those who may have been priorly overwhelmed. Categories, outlines, charts, graphs, relational tables, etc.  will probably arrive one day by authors.  

What might seem "useless" or "irrelevant" to one worker, just might be inspiring and useful to another worker; another worker might find a path of relevance that is just missed by another worker. Rash dismissing of relevance closes door; with the door closed, the full appreciation what was blocked is temporarily out of reach for the door-closing worker. 

Any particular AWE worker need not address all that others present.  But what one wants to address should not give license to put up blocking text that tends to steer other workers to examine matters that may have been put aside by someone.   What is put aside by one person might become the key tech for another worker. 

Art without words or analysis may still be strongly relevant to a tech search. Let the art stand to inspire later mulling and eventual text and analysis. One worker might not "see" something in art that other workers might "see" in the art.  Rash dismissal of share art might tend to hide the opportunity for careful textual analysis of the art.  No one worker need look at all art; I recommend that art be left to invite inspiration for future visitors to the art.

~ JoeF
 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14792 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"Rotored turbines set in soft-kite winged kite systems would be a special challenge." So now such turbines are not covered by prior art since they become a challenge? But it is a progress JoeF rightly sees a challenge in the domain which I introduce as what is the title on the present topic.See on the 1st video on http://flygenkite.com : the two kites are soft kites with some frame carrying rotors. See again explains from previous posts about possible lighter frame carrying the turbines by the tension between the two ends, that before making a premature distinction between soft kites and "non-soft sticked-winged kite systems".

I strongly disagree for the other part of the post. Actually there are important problems (land use, reliability, also lack of real possibility to tap from low _200 m_ to high altitudes _3,000 m and more _ for "crosswind" systems due to strong drag and other problems mentioned in previous posts) making AWES yet non viable, at least for existing schemes from companies and organizations. Adding thousands (more and more pointlessly complicated) variants without trying to answer the problems is an endless game. Trying to make an analysis of problems can allow finding some solution.

 

PierreB

  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14793 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
"Some people might be overwhelmed with the vast space of possibilities in AWE;"(-JoeF) *** Many become overwhelmed with regular wind energy.  That doesn't make them right.  Usually it just means they are confused, lack understanding of the basics of science and engineering, let alone wind energy.  There is NO END to IDIOTS pronouncing their "breakthroughs in wind energy".  People new to wind energy often don't take into account the basics offered by science.  Instead they turn into instant crackpots, making no sense whatsoever while insisting they are redefining the art.  Survey 1000 new wind turbine ideas, and tabulate how many worked out.  Most talk of improving wind energy by outsiders is so nonsensical as to bring into question whether humans even HAVE any intelligence at all!
Here's an example:  A few years back, NASA announced entry into AWE.  Their first foray was to construct a website showing a blimp on Mars supporting wind turbine(s).  Lots of people got pretty excited - Wow great idea, until you check NASA's own data regarding air density and windspeeds on Mars (below):  So with a density of 1/200th of earth's atmosphere, you'd have to make the turbine something like 200 times lighter, for the same power?  But with such low air density, it seems that you'd need to GREATLY increase the swept area to make the same amount of power.  Like 200 times bigger AND 200 times lighter, at the same time?  And the blimp would have to be 200 times lighter in construction?  Does this seem realistic?  And their response was "It;s just a concept".  A concept of what, promoting something that dumb on its face with no explanation of how it could overcome the obvious challenges?  Or is it one more example of how wind energy makes idiots out of the otherwise supposedly-smartest people?  It is interesting to me that they only took down that ridiculous webpage after I started flagging it as more "Professor Crackpot" nonsense, which is exactly what it was.  But, ya know, don't listen to me...   What the heck do I know?  Wind energy:  It'll make a monkey out of you.  :)
Mars Fact Sheet

 

Martian Atmosphere

Surface pressure:  6.36 mb at mean radius (variable from 4.0 to 8.7 mb depending on season)  
                   [6.9 mb to 9 mb (Viking 1 Lander site)]
Surface density: ~0.020 kg/m3
Scale height:  11.1 km
Total mass of atmosphere: ~2.5 x 1016 kg
Average temperature:  ~210 K (-63 C)
Diurnal temperature range: 184 K to 242 K (-89 to -31 C) (Viking 1 Lander site)
Wind speeds:  2-7 m/s (summer), 5-10 m/s (fall), 17-30 m/s (dust storm) (Viking Lander sites)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14794 From: Joe Faust Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Combine a soft kite with a substantial spreading-supporting stick and net a kite that is no longer a 
"soft kite."    Having some soft spaces in an otherwise sticked wing entity does not erase the global "sticked" arrangement. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14795 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

From the title of present topic:"Turbines integrated in a soft kite, the set forming a plane surface." From Labrador's patents,the set (balloon-kite and turbines) does not form a plane surface. With such materials (train of balloon-kites) I cannot obtain the results according to my purposes (maximization of land use, avoiding forest of tethers). But search report will bring a first answer of prior art.

Note that (as mentioned on my previous post) it is not possible to make a special challenge of rotored turbines in soft kite if they are part of relevant prior art. If no, some improvement will have meanwhile been made, justifying another filling of patent.

 

PierreB

  
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14796 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Latest Altaeros News?
We heard about how much power the Alaska deployment will make (in the future) (Wind energy breakthroughs are always in the future, since they never seem to work out in the past, as in "actually happened")  (It's a "fact"... til it isn't...) Now that it's been deployed, it might be nice to hear some follow-up information:
1) Is it still running, or has it already broken or failed in some way?
2) What is the output?
3) Is it almost ready for Mars at 1/200th the air density (200x weight reduction?).
4) Any other juicy details?
Wouldn't you think they be sharing some good news by now?
Don't they care about the thousands of people around the world, on the edge of their seats, waiting to hear how this breakthrough is working?  Heck, even as skeptical as I am, I'd love to hear some positive results - or negative ones - just let's hear about some results!

Or have we reached that magic moment where suddenly, "we're not supposed to ask"...
This is where the cracked pots typically fragment - when they have to live up to their promises.
Is this Altaeros "quietly going away"...
Doesn't it seem that after such announcements of impending success, Professor Crackpot OWES the world some follow-up coverage, whether good or bad?  Doesn't it seem that an HONEST or SCIENTIFIC effort would continue communication of progress, rather than just announcing future progress then shutting down?  I mean this IS MIT, right?
:)
Yeah, sure, a seemingly million possibilities, but how many are realistic possibilities, even at first glance?

Imagine planning a trip from California to New York.  What route will get you there?  What type of vehicle is best?  "Well gosh I don't know there are SO MANY possibilites!?!?!  I'm SO CONFUSED!!  I guess we should just START DRIVING, or biking, walking, crawling, flipping, flopping, or SOMETHING, in SOME DIRECTION, and out of the THOUSANDS OF POSSIBLE ROUTES, MAYBE we will get LUCKY and end up in New York!  Hey, maybe the best method is by BLIMP and the best route is VIA MARS!  Hey, "it's just a concept!"
(And you're "just a crackpot"...)  :)))
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14797 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Looks like Jules Verne on steroids - ideas reminiscent of the1800's
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14798 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Keeping Kling of circa 1975 into this LTA topic thread: 
***Why look!  It's "a newborn baby"!  Only 40 years old!  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14799 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

The turbines are not soft (so the challenge of a completely soft set is lost) or are a little flexible, but the kite stays soft if the sticks are only for turbines. By resuming some possibilities: rigid kite (not good because it cannot scale up enough); kite with sticks over its whole area, kite with sticks only for turbines, and also kite without sticks by the tension between the two ends or by wind forces.The three last are studied. 

 

PierreB  

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14800 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

You wrote: ""negative posts " can be a way to reduce the duration of R&D", with reference to Doug. You dismiss positive views as the path to delay.

I am the technically critical (but polite) voice here regarding the idea of turbines embedded in-plane in a wing, as based on AE testing practice and engineering reason, but you somehow dismiss my arguments as too "positive". I am not aware that Doug specifically critiqued this idea (his ST after all, is based on off-axis flow), but he critiques humanity broadly as ignorant, and so on; which you claim to find somehow helpful, perhaps only on a philosophical or emotional level, given Doug's lack of technical specificity.

My strong critique also applies to AWE patent holders making investor solicitations, but with no working prototype, as applicable to the WheelWind. This is "negative" posting. I think the range of Forum views is more balanced that you or Doug admit. You and he are in the same the same boat with regard to both of you holding the most "positive" patent-seeking attitudes on the Forum.

You have made a grandiose claim for Doug's style of negativity, and your use of it to "to reduce the duration of R&D". Good luck to both of you in proving this to be true in flight testing, which sorts positive from negative by a wonderful logic, if you will allow the positive side,

daveS


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:29 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14801 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,


By mentioning positive or negative posts I refer to technical concerns, not emotional concerns.

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14802 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Doug did not have any actual "news" to share, but did provide us a list of questions for him to equally and honestly apply to his USWindLabs venture, as his professed standard of worthiness.

The latest "news" from Altaeros is only a natural schedule stretch in coordinating novel tech development with government players and Alaskan remoteness and conditions. We can suppose a standard turbine flying dubious "negative post" advantage). Altaeros may not have the ultimate AWES concept, but they are at least gamely trying. Let Doug try and beat them in the sky, if he really knows better.


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:58 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14803 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: NTS News
Translated quote-

"...Our two control units are in continuous operation. Our electric car was upgraded hardware and software side, so that we could continue to work on perfecting the fully automatic drive. Our 400 meters long, straight test track we drive back and forth automatically and continuously generate electricity. Next week we get our new control unit - this is designed for dragons (kites) up to 80sqm. We are delighted to test them in use in the short term. A large 80sqm kite generates so much traction that we can draw an installed capacity of electric cars with theoretically up to 250 KW. In continuous operation, we could thus generate around 1 GWh per year.The hard work of the last few months has paid off in full..."

Die Drachen steigen wieder!
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Die Drachen steigen wieder!
In den letzten Wochen haben wir wieder intensiv Zeit auf unserer Teststrecke in Friedland (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) verbracht.

View on us7.campaign-archive...
Preview by Yahoo

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14804 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

"Altaeros is far ahead of USWindLabs in AWE, by almost any measure (excepting Pierre's dubious "negative post" advantage). "

"negative post" refers to technical concerns by a more precise target on what it is really possible. Of course I agree Altaeros is the actual leader within AWE advanced prototypes. From DougS it is easy to see the difference between technical concerns and other considerations...

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14805 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Doug wrote: "Why look!  It's "a newborn baby"!  Only 40 years old!  :)"

No sign Doug yet understands "what good" AWE as a "newborn baby" is, nor that this patent is not the actual baby, nor that AWE, under Ben Franklin's metaphor, is not logically restricted to a human-baby time-table. Doug may not have any technical insight to add (as usual), but if he somehow speaks to Pierre's quest for RAD, its all-good.

If Franklin's body-kiting across a pond marks the birth of modern AWE history, the "newborn baby" is really three centuries old, and its quite a wonderful infant, with a long amazing childhood still to come...


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:07 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14806 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

True, my emotional state about testing (in-plane turbines) is positive (negative test results are good results too), but the technical result was (sadly, in my view) negative. I raised to you several technical critiques, based on the direct testing an actual in-plane turbine, and my logic explaining the weak result. If you do not find this non-Doug negative technical result helpful, at least agree my posted views are more negative toward the idea of in-plane turbines than anything Doug has said about them specifically.

Good Luck in your testing; in seeking better results,

daveS


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:17 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14807 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"(negative test results are good results too)" where there are some references; if no negative "tests" can be regarded as positively negative emotion."...my posted views are more negative toward the idea of in-plane turbines than anything Doug has said about them specifically."

It is a good sign.

 

 

PierreB,

http://flygenkite.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14808 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Pierre wrote: "...Altaeros is the actual leader within AWE advanced prototypes..."

I strongly disagree, and do not think LTA dependence by either party is the "advanced" AWE "leader" at all (based on 20yrs experience with LTA). LTA itself is rather primitive, in any aerospace ranking of advanced technologies.

Your technical criteria of AWE leadership by advanced prototypes needs support by a sound explanation.




On Sunday, September 28, 2014 10:04 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14809 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre,

The references to my poor test results are Forum posts going back about three years, and repeated here. You admit to willfully overlooking such posts, so do not expect extra help now to catch up.

Go ahead and see if you actually get much boost to an in-plane rotor, either from flow past a tuned wing, or from flow dammed by a stalled wing. Patent this idea as a real-life test of your wisdom of seeking AWE patents with your capital, rather than funding flight testing or training* instead.

You are not asked to believe my negative reports or explanations, but to please prove them wrong, if you can,

daveS

* Kite pros train persistently.


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 10:34 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14810 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

I wrote "...advanced prototype", you wrote "...advanced technologies".It is not the same. Avanced prototype as working prototype. But as "advanced technology", maybe Makani assuring some level of take-off? And for the best turnover, maybe USWindLabs?

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14811 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

DaveS,


For the third time I indicate some tests of rotor 17 cm in diameter alone or within a structure 45 cm in diameter making the same result (in front of a ventilator). And rotors in kite turn. Of course other tests will be made.Where are your (emotional) "tests"?

 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14812 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

(Correction and complement of my precedent post)

 

DaveS,


For the third (now the fourth) time I indicate some tests (in front of a ventilator) of a rotor 15 cm in diameter alone then within a structure 45 cm in external diameter and 18 cm in internal diameter, said rotor making the same (rough) result ."You are not asked to believe my negative reports..." Where are your negative reports? In your pocket? And what was "tested": is really an in-plane rotor*? AoA? Rotor diameter? Opening diameter? Group of rotors? Or an embedded rotor like Altaeros has?...?

 

PierreB

*I doubt on it since the different and numerous posts on this topic do not show any previous thinking about in-plane rotors probably because it is not so obvious to think an autogyro-helico like integrated in soft kite, the set forming a plan, that instead of a kite carrying HAWT which is the obvious idea.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14813 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Yes, to me a tech prototype is technology, and its nonsense to suggest that Altaeros' technology is somehow less advanced than its latest prototype.


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:09 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14814 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
"Doug did not have any actual "news" to share" -DaveS *** DaveS does not have any "news" to share. - Doug S.  :))  Hey Captain Busybody: If you DON'T HAVE any answers, there is no need for your predictable response.  We don't need to hear more of YOUR negativity.  If I had publicly announced a project in, say, 50 magazines, it would be appropriate a few months later to ask how my project was going.  But NO, as YOU point out, we're NOW in the "It's impolite to ask" phase, of the firehose of watered-down nonsense that today's feeble attempts at AWE represent.

Why is it considered off-base for me to ask how MIT is doing with their Alaskan project?  I'll TELL you why.  Because YOU ALREADY KNOW they probably have nothing very good to report.  And if general wind-energy experience is any indication, there were probably things that went wrong and unforseen failure modes.  I'll bet it didn't last a week.  The flying donut is probably broken, would be my guess.  Or maybe it flew away.  Or maybe they saw how crappy it worked and ARRANGED for it to "fly away" (Nope, haven't seen it lately - waiting for our insurance check...)   That's why deployment in Alaska, Fukushima, or Mars, represent a poor choice for a prototype.

As even the endlessly idiotic Dave S. pointed out a while back during a rare moment of common sense, they would be better off using a regular blimp. (Then they can wait until the first storm before it, too, fails)
I can tell you why they didn't, based on experience: (And this is why patents can really SUCK) because using regular blimps was already in the public domain, and they had bothered to PATENT the donut blimp (that gives up most of its otherwise-lifting volume to its central tunnel) and so, once committed to this bad idea, they had to "build to the patent" (like "teach for the test") and so the patent system's promise of free money sidetracked (tempted) them to sabotage an otherwise possibly viable idea.  If even Dave S. can notice how much lifting volume the hole eliminated, you KNOW it's obvious.  Anyway, my 2 cents. And of course I am a terrible person for uttering the obvious - about anything!   (Especially if I agree with Dave S. previous statements though he has apparently forgotten) Oh well, that's OK.  Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14815 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Doug,

Agreed, there is No News in your "latest Altateros news" topic you started, as a pretext to rant. That is my exact complaint.

Compare my more recent post with Real NTS News, citing and linking their latest announcement, with zero rant content.

You are the "no news rant" champ here,

daveS


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 1:06 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14816 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
The rotor was caged and about 30cm dia in tri-sail soft wing of about 3m2. A still photo was provided. The Forum Posts are in fact in our pocket (if you also have a smart phone), but please do your own review.

If our experimental results differ, then lets eagerly await future third-party testing of the off-axis flow and choked flow results that you did not observe as I did.


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 12:47 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14817 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

"The rotor was caged and about 30cm dia in tri-sail soft wing of about 3m2. " Thanks DaveS. Facing wing or off-axis (both tilted rotor and wing)?My tests are been facing ventilator, and in tilted position, with and without structure. But other tests are needed: a gyrokite alone and within soft wing, by measuring rpm. If the problem of chocked flow is real other configurations like a group of rotors within a single opening will be tried, soft wing being around rotors.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14818 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14819 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

"Altaeros is far ahead of USWindLabs in AWE" -DaveS "Altaeros is the actual leader within AWE" -PierreB ***OK geniuses, so HOW IS IT WORKING????

That's not just "some question", it's THE ONLY QUESTION.

why is it ME who has to ASK?  Is there nobody else on here who even CARES?

Same reason it took ME to flag the blimp-turbine on Mars as questionable?

Because guys like you are SO SHARP and ON TOP of your GAME?

You guys go ON and ON and ON blathering NOTHINGNESS.  You are SO EASILY manipulated.  I asked a SIMPLE QUESTION:  WHAT'S THE LATEST NEWS REGARDING ALTAEROS HIGHLY-PUBLICIZED ALASKA TRIAL?

and all you guys can do is act like typical dumbed-down, unquestioning, robot-like, press-release-as-a-substitute-for-science, rubber-stamping, bowing-to-perceived-authority, drones.  You have NO GENUINE CURIOSITY, NO INTELLECTUAL HONESTY, NO URGE TO SEE IF ANYTHING EVEN WORKS.  ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS POSTURE AND CALL PEOPLE NAMES.  How many back-to-back versions of the same lie do YOU need to hear before you develop the slightest skepticism?   Dave S. thinks if he can seem to defend any multiple letter agency's lies he will somehow win their favor.  Big deal, and then what?  You can share in their lack of progress?  No, they throw idiots like you to the curb even faster than their lame-ass ideas can prove worthless.  This field is SO FULL OF IDIOTS I CAN'T BELIEVE IT.  I have NEVER seen SO MANY  STUPID PEOPLE declaring themselves GENIUSES with NOTHING WHATSOEVER to indicate it as factual.

Hey Mr. Genius-in-your-own-mind DaveS.:  This is the SECOND time you've gone into an uwarranted scolding mode for me asking what;s the latest news on someone's stated prototype test.  The last one was David Fender's FuKuShiMa(n) debacle.  The common thread is you HAVE NO INFORMATION, yet want to make ME out to be "the bad guy", as usual.  Now you even come back with "I have provided no news".  Yeah, well, I was not purporting to be delivering news, I was ASKING about any news.  So IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY NEWS, WHY NOT SHUT THE HELL UP?  Don't you think people get tired of you always trying to act like you're somehow "in charge"?  In charge of what?  It would be great if someone could post SOMETHING without YOU thinking you have to answer.  Your comments are mere noise.  Try taking a break - your opinion is not helpful or meaningful.  If you are SO SMART, why not FIND OUT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION? THAT would be a meaningful response.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14820 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
"If Franklin's body-kiting across a pond marks the birth of modern AWE history, the "newborn baby" is really three centuries old", *** More idiotic nonsense from DaveS.  Wasn't it you who told us about fishermen using AWE thousands of years ago?  Hey genius-boy, how about finding out some news from David Fender in FuKuShiMa(n) or Altaeros in Alaska?  Or are you satisfied with purportedly-predictive press-releases from the past?  No fact-check required, eh DaveS?   I've told you how the crackpots always "quietly go away" (well, except you...)  Now it's your move to show us the answer.
I swear, you are so impossible.  I ask about Alaska and you reply with Ben Franklin.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14821 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Thanks for that JoeF.  So does Altaeros have a patent or not?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14822 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
The flown part of a kite system that has an essential stick will be facing the scaling cubic challenge on that stick, no matter how much else in the flown kite-system parts are otherwise soft. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14823 From: dougselsam Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
ANSWERS: Yes a tilted rotor falls off in power output as it is tilted more and more.  But within a certain range you can get away with it.  Rotors as tested by DaveS. are likely SO TERRIBLE in performance anyway as to make tests of output at various angles meaningless.  And so many modifying factors could be included.  Yes a surface with a hole will concentrate wind thru the hole, increasing a turbine's output if placed in the hole.  Any time you block the wind, it has to go somewhere, and where ever that is, the wind is accelerated.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14824 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

No,


PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14825 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ


No, since the rotored area increases by the number of rotors, not by their size.

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14826 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: NTS News
My vote for the NTS project became the "36th" vote for their project. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14827 From: benhaiemp Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?

Please Doug do not read as DaveS. The quotation is "Altaeros is the actual leader within AWE advanced prototypes". Read between lines: AWE advanced prototypes do not make an AWE industry as electricity production in scale. So it is a tiny result.

 

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14828 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Doug,

You are missing the glorious Kite Revolution in willful despair. In fact, AWE is making wonderful progress! Why is there no positive news from USWindLabs for you to share??

Please at least try kite skiing au-champ-libre, as an AWE substitute for your accustomed ski resort with fake snow, to surely have some positive AWE news to report.

daveS


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 3:04 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14829 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Single-skin soft wing sails being kited do not form "planes" but rather form non-plane surfaces.
~JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14830 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Lta windpower
Doug,

Its true, AWE is very ancient, as kite apps; that's why I carefully count Franklin as "modern AWE history".

Please read carefully before complaining thoughtfully, if you want to be a "genius-boy" too,

daveS


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 3:12 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14831 From: dave santos Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Pierre, to repeat, I tested the sail-wing both "stalled" (high-AoA) and "trimmed" (low AoA). I am unhappy (re)answering your questions for free, when you wrongly intend to patent AWE ideas against the world. Please find other help.

Joe, The plane is a local geometric approximation, just like invoking "flat land". No confusion is warranted.


On Sunday, September 28, 2014 3:57 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14832 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ


DaveS: "...patent AWE ideas against the world. Please find other help."  Are you the world? I do not think you help in any way for the scheme I present, your "sharing" being only a hollow word. Your data are tiny and not referenced. Morever DougS gives an opposite advice about air flow in hole. So I am confident on my present and future tests. 

PierreB
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14833 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

The set forming an appreciably plane surface, the line of rotors following the line of kite, in opposition to others ways where rotors has a non-flat angle with the soft kite.

 

PierreB

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14834 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Altaeros News?
Sept. 28, 2914
Joe Faust <Editor@upperwindpower.com 4:27 PM PST

to info@altaeros.com

Team Altaeros,
Please consider posting tech update on your project
into forum airbornewindenergy
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AirborneWindEnergy/info
Thank you,
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14835 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower
Patent US20100090473 - Power-augmenting shroud for energy-producing turbines

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14836 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower
In their patent application, Altaeros cited:
Cited PatentFiling datePublication dateApplicantTitle
US4350897 *Oct 24, 1980Sep 21, 1982Benoit William RLighter than air wind energy conversion system
US4350898 *Oct 24, 1980Sep 21, 1982Benoit William RLighter than air wind energy conversion system utilizing an external radial disk diffuser
US4350899 *Oct 24, 1980Sep 21, 1982Benoit William RLighter than air wind energy conversion system utilizing a rearwardly mounted internal radial disk diffuser
US4450364 *Mar 24, 1982May 22, 1984Benoit William RLighter than air wind energy conversion system utilizing a rotating envelope
US4789302 *Feb 6, 1987Dec 6, 1988Josip GruzlingIn a marine propulsion apparatus
US7582981 *Jun 23, 2008Sep 1, 2009Moshe MellerAirborne wind turbine electricity generating system
US20070013196 *Jun 30, 2006Jan 18, 2007Chen Shih HWind Power Generator
US20100032947 *Mar 6, 2009Feb 11, 2010Bevirt JoebenApparatus for generating power using jet stream wind power
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14837 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Lta windpower
So far, some other patents have cited the Altaeros patent application: 
REFERENCED BY
Citing PatentFiling datePublication dateApplicantTitle
US8089173Aug 23, 2010Jan 3, 2012V Squared Wind, Inc.Wind power nozzle with optimized intake length
US8393850Sep 8, 2009Mar 12, 2013Flodesign Wind Turbine Corp.Inflatable wind turbine
US8395276Apr 17, 2012Mar 12, 2013V Squared Wind, Inc.Modular array wind energy nozzle with increased throughput
US8482146Dec 10, 2009Jul 9, 2013V Squared Wind, Inc.Efficient systems and methods for construction and operation of accelerating machines
US8598730Feb 8, 2013Dec 3, 2013V Squared Wind, Inc.Modular array wind energy nozzles with truncated catenoidal curvature to facilitate air flow
US8653684Jun 15, 2011Feb 18, 2014Brookes H. BakerFacility for producing electrical energy from wind
US8801362Apr 1, 2011Aug 12, 2014Ogin, Inc.Fluid turbine
WO2011159848A1 *Jun 15, 2011Dec 22, 2011Baker Brookes HFacility for producing electrical energy from wind
WO2014022770A1 *Aug 2, 2013Feb 6, 2014Altaeros Energies, Inc.Lighter-than-air craft for energy-producing turbines
* Cited by examiner
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14838 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ
Unclear to me what your "No" concerns. 
Do you object to the cubic scaling challenge of some essential stick as size of wing system increases?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14839 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: AWES for electricity production in utility-scale? Turbines integ

See my previous posts about it.

PierreB,

http://flygenkite.com