Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES14139to14188 Page 178 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14139 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Study of 2014 KiteGen power wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14140 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Study KiteGen's paper on patents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14141 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study of 2014 KiteGen power wing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14142 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study KiteGen's paper on patents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14143 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study KiteGen's paper on patents

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14144 From: Cleventine Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14145 From: Rod Read Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14146 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14147 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14148 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14149 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14150 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14151 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14152 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14153 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: waterotor.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14154 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14155 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || View-blocking and more

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14156 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14157 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Sound-damping

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14158 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Heat blocking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14159 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Mirror Drapes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14160 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Scenes and backdrop images

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14161 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Windbreaks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14162 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Smoke shielding

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14163 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Aircraft Blocking

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14164 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14165 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Marginal Applications?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14166 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14167 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14168 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Marginal Applications?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14169 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Marginal Applications?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14170 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Most Essential Ideas in AWE R&D

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14171 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14172 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14173 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14174 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Towers reach for the sky

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14175 From: dougselsam Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14176 From: dougselsam Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14177 From: Harry Valentine Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Towers reach for the sky

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14178 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14179 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14180 From: Rod Read Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14181 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Ballistic Tether Deployment Methods (Throw-Bag Method)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14182 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Laying Cable by Helicopter (AWES Construction Similarity-Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14183 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Tutorial on Electrical (Line) Stringing (general and aerial methods)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14184 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Faraday Cage Airborne Layer (application note)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14185 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Novel Flapping, Looping, and Rotor Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14186 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Laying Cable by Helicopter (AWES Construction Similarity-Case)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14188 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14139 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Study of 2014 KiteGen power wing

http://kitegen.com/2014/08/29/la-prima-power-wing/

This topic thread invites a study of the illustrated power wing for the KiteGen AWES endeavors. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14140 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Study KiteGen's paper on patents

This topic thread is dedicated to the study of the 14-page paper by the company KiteGen about HAWE patents.   This topic thread might be a kind of peer reviewing of the paper, its merits, its statements true or false, its neglects, its tone, etc. 

One source in PDF: HERE.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14141 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study of 2014 KiteGen power wing
Its a pretty wing all right; nobody does high-performance in-style better than Italians. A key challenge is whether KiteGen's power wing, made of rigid composite panels flexibly hinged together, can survive being crashed again and again, until pay-back. Can a Ferrari work like a truck? Dutch fund managers for Saudi wealth are paying to find out (SABIC Ventures). There is a high-probability this wing will not survive its maiden-flight.

If KiteGen tries to unit-scale this sort of wing larger, it will reveal its cubic scaling-limit. The KiteLab-identified scaling-path is to integrate large dense-arrays of power-wings sweeping cross-linked, under collective pilot-lift, as a single megascale meta-unit. KiteGen's new wing once again suggests a sub-unit structural basis for dense array power-wings (KiteLab has built similar AWES composite wing structures since 2007 (carbon load-paths, flexible foam-core, flexible skin)). Pilot-lift (ie. Mothra-tech) is also long proposed as the basic solution to unacceptable hot-wing crash and runaway risk.


On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:28 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14142 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study KiteGen's paper on patents
Some nods by the author to the space of patents not addressed will eventually be seen as a Trojan Horse which horse will release the vast public domain of AWES tech that eats away at much of the supposed novelty represented in the small portion of patents addressed in the study.   The paper does not get into the issue of valid novelty. 

The paper lets a count for a company bubble strong without addressing the public-domain novelty issue. The paper does not address the enforceable worth of any patent or patent collection.  It is very unclear about the criteria of selecting HAWE patents to include in the counting; without careful criteria for sifting, one must be on guard for a bias that may neglect important patents that indeed affect HAWE.  

The mentioned annex of patents was not included in the linked copy of my first post. Be ready for some pre-1990 unmentioned patents to make non-novel much of the novelty claims of 1990-forward selected patents.  And be ready for unpatented published tech to undermined claims of novelty in the selected patents. 

A related unproven statement on the KiteGen site claims Makani went to flygen to avoid encroachment on KG patents.   A proof cannot be given for such a statement, I hold. Going groundgen by Makani need not use KG patents, as the tech for groundgen AWES was already in public domain.  So, KG, what support do you have for placing such historical remark about Makani????

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14143 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Study KiteGen's paper on patents
KiteGen is seen as the leading Patent Troll in AWE, with seemingly more filings than the rest of Europe combined. They spend a lot of capital for what are considered junk-patents, and cannot point to any specific patent claim as essential, but are constantly promoting to investors like SABIC Ventures that its weak kite patents actually matter. 

The counter view is that 150 years of kite patents long ago flushed out the key AWE ideas into the public domain. Open-AWE seems to have all the prior art it needs to prevail. KiteGen blocks critical discussion of its extreme patent claims on its group list.

The author of the KiteGen patent analysis is given as M. Corongiu . This comes up in search as m.corongiu@sequoiaonline.com. MARCELLO CORONGIU  (Cc:ed for a chance to respond here).

Marcello is the lead contact for KitVes, a ship-kite player-

About KitVes
 


On Friday, August 29, 2014 12:19 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14144 From: Cleventine Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Take a vote to kick this guy out. DougS is nothing but a nuisance in my opinion.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14145 From: Rod Read Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day

I think we should have a silly Tuesdays policy. Compulsory 1 silly comedy email submitted for any useful posting. Only on Tuesday. Keep everyone reminded that nobody knows it all, and keep everyone on their toes creatively.
We'll have a hoot and compose nonsense for a change. For a change DS & DS could swap roles.

I wouldn't neglect any of their commentary in the interests of balance Clem.

Each knows the very difficult job of the other.

Whether they are brave enough to compliment each other with a direct position swap....

Bring on Tuesday!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14146 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Tether

May the stock be wing ... 

==========

Tether notes invited with an eye to RAD. 


Historic?


Start: 

Herman E. Briggs  in 1880 was excited about tether: 

https://www.google.com/patents/US230229
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14147 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether
Several posts in our over 14,000 posts mentioned dog-team tether arrangements with eye of seeing that the dogs could be thought of as wings in AWES.   Take such tease further; consider the full range of animal-tethering arts for clues about some wing-tethering. Even consider cord or wire fencing in the mix. Limit and or control one animal or hundreds of animals. Limit the space of activity (flight of wings) by main tethers, auxiliary tethers, tag lines, control lines, ...  Hierarchy of tethers in a system?   Rope-driving?  Energy transfer? Knots and terminals involved when tethers are crafted?  Tether holders? Tether handling? Tether management? Status of tethers in systems? 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14148 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Video uploaded by Roland Schmehl

Published on Aug 30, 2014

"We tested an experimental setup for automatic launching and landing of a large power-generating inflatable wing. The wing is a modified 25m2 Leading Edge Inflatable tube kite. The kite control unit is suspended below the wing and is used for steering of the wing as well as changing of the angle of attack. The tests were conducted in 2012."



======================================
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14149 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing
Tower? Two different wings? Any expanded story? Thanks, Roland.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14150 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether
Also mentioned earlier were aspects of lines and belts in exercise equipment that tether the human to resistive weights and springs. The rich space of such designs spiced with PTO means may provide art for some AWES solutions. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14151 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether
AWE craft may be blessed by comprehensive mastery over what the fishing arts, marine arts, and sailing arts bring to AWES-tether matters. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14152 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether
Using tethers to pull things, tow vehicles, drag items, lift and lower things ... the involved arts, lessons, safety know-how of the involved arts may speak to various AWES arrangements. May AWE miss not former lessons learned in such arts and operations. 
  ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14153 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: waterotor.com

waterotor.com   Yes, suppress one "r" in the name.  

W.E.T.   Waterotor Energy Technologies, Inc. 

Magenn energy?  Air to water realms?

Fred's adventure continues. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14154 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com

Intended hyperlink: 


Waterotor


Notice the tethering. And the shading of the lower part of the horizontally set VAWT (vertical axis water turbine); but the set could be any clock angle.   Seems he changed focus from air to water while keeping attention on the VAWT direction. 


~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14155 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || View-blocking and more
I invite incorporation in this shade topic thread the arts and good works of "view blocking" by use of AWES. 
E.g., Have the flight system drape one or many curtains that block the view of something. Perhaps keep people without tickets from seeing the concert or outdoor video.   

The arts of view blocking by use of kite systems may be advanced as needs arise. The arts will also serve air-flow control, large animal corralling, fencing by kite, dust control, pollutant-path control, insect capture, etc. These other good works are invited into this topic thread up to the involved common arts that seem to be involved with shade-by-kite schemes. Water analogues are considerably developed with the use of Rod's buoys and downing weights, and other paravane schemes.   Slides and conveyor systems touch on the shade-kite arts. 

Of course, when a topic is in very high focus, fly out into a new topic thread. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14156 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Tether
Improvement in picket-pins for horses
US 147928 A  https://www.google.com/patents/US147928
1873

Spell "horse"  as "wing" for application in AWE. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14157 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Sound-damping
Embraced in shade-near concerns is the use of AWES for sound damping. Fly noise-damping curtains or sheets in order to lower the sound radiating from source. The structure of the drapes could be specifically made to damp sound.   Unwanted music? Sound from blasting operations? Lower the cacophony of flocks of birds?

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14158 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Heat blocking
Invited in near-shade topic could be development notes about blocking of heat and/or heat reflection. Getting too much heat from some factory or fire or reflected sunshine?  Maybe employ AWES to use the wind's energy to effect a solution by draping heat-blockers.    


~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14159 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Mirror Drapes
Have a need to mirror one scene into another?  Have a need to multiply light into a place?  Consider using AWES to drape and/or mirror-finish sheets to effect desired arrangements. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14160 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Scenes and backdrop images

Have a desire for effecting a special visual scene? Use AWES to fly the art to effect the view wished. Want to have a large backdrop of the ocean while in the middle of a desert?   Want a forest scene to replace unwanted factory view during an activity?  The drapes might be smart and controllable in real time to give video for changing scenes. This is part review from some former posts.  But the art of accomplishing scenes by way of AWES may be developed when needed. 
     Surround drapes?    Rural desert house might fly a small cylinder drape held by AWES; change the scene. The surround drape might be radiating a lighting glow.   Or be white to keep LED lights reflecting light for night operations and works. 
    
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14161 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Windbreaks
Want to break the wind from a place?  Shade the wind by use of AWES tactics.   Maybe sand or mist control?  Maybe control of odor pathways?   Veer dust?   Lower the wind around a living place to permit healthier survival?   Protect animals from too much wind?  Protect plants from too much wind?  Let the AWES serving perform multiple duties, perhaps slowing wind in a scene while also generating electricity for use in the same or remote scene. 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14162 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Smoke shielding
Want to hold a cone of fresh air while smoke is passing by? Consider flying an AWES to hold up an enclosed cone anchored to a closed circle or ellipse on the ground; have air for hours for survival while the smoke dissipates. Shade out the smoke and particulates from the smoke storm or sandstorm.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14163 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Shade || Aircraft Blocking
Want to use AWES to keep other aircraft out of a space?  


Want to shade from small drones?  Fly nets with meshes to fit purposes. 

~ JoeF

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14164 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com
Fred D. Ferguson is almost surely the greatest aerospace confidence man in history (25 million in "StarWars" funding for a spinning balloon that ended in an insurance fire), who went on to popularize AWE with the Magenn MARS (8 million, never deployed).

The LTA community followed the Fred's early career in the '80s with amusement and dismay, and then the AWE community witnessed the same bad physics (but great visuals) marketed to hapless investors. Fred never gave a hint whether he was the most incompetent AE developer ever, or the most dishonest, but it really doesn't matter, the schemes were doomed.

Finally he has found a "Magnus" application that makes some sense: The return side of this water paddle-wheel is in thin air, and avoids most of the return-side drag-loss of a Savonius rotor.

Investors beware.

---------------------------
Note that we re-classed these rotors as "crosswind-axis", to avoid having to disambiguate vertical or horizontal orientation. 




On Saturday, August 30, 2014 8:28 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14165 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Marginal Applications?
JoeF,

Is there some way to manage discussion of endless marginal applications more efficiently? Some ideas are not worth the status of a stand-alone topic (eg. a kite holding up one's pants). Also, we are failing to reference and build on old discussion when we merely re-mention a topic already deeply pondered.

Two suggestions-

- "laundry list" posts (one post, one long list).

- Try and define abstractly what apps are NOT feasible (by engineering or economic law). 

This should restore the conciseness essential for RAD focus,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14166 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Rod (Clev),

Doug has never respected rules to curb his abusive Netiquette. I would not give away Tuesday even if he could restrict his useless postings to that day. Clev is right, something strong must be done, but let us not waste a voting process on a Net troll, when we could be deliberating actual important issues.

A six month suspension seems to me fair. Doug has again and again spoiled the Forum, and the complaints and folks driven away have been many. Now that he has finally admitted to baiting us with "intentional stupidity", there is no doubt about his ethical culpability. Lets give him a last chance: The next time he violates public norms for "family friendly" language or productive engineering discussion, lets cut him off for a good long spell.

No way he can proclaim he was censored for his inventive ideas, which he has had years of freedom to share (but claims to keep secret, from self-interest),

daveS


On Saturday, August 30, 2014 12:19 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14167 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: waterotor.com
Yikes! Fred never learns, it seems...

The Savonius rotor is fully submerged in the WET prototype videos, so no return-side-in-thin-air advantage. There is a deflector feeding the scoops and shielding the return side. The whole rig is far more massive than a competing axial-flow turbine (ie. a SpiralFoil-like turbine suited for low-speed current).

Many of the claims are false or badly misleading, including that the Magenn project is on-track (even its web site has disappeared). Fred's bio is a masterpiece of undeserved of faked honor. I cannot find that the AIAA ever gave Fred the award claimed, so its precise basis can be studied.

Note: there is a another Fred Ferguson, who is a real AE guy, but with the misfortune to have the same name as a hapless grifter of greater fame-

Frederick Ferguson, Professor - North Carolina A&T State University
 

 

image
 

 
 
 
 

Frederick Ferguson, Professor - North Carolina A&T State...
In this section Why Study at A&T? Undergraduate Programs Schools & Colleges Mechanical Engineering Faculty and Staff Daniel Acree Paul Akangah Jerome Antoni...

View on www.ncat.edu
Preview by Yahoo

 







On Saturday, August 30, 2014 10:15 AM, "dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14168 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Marginal Applications?
Some notes regarding your ideas: 

1. My personal habit is to put any application of AWES into the forum 
Kite Applications .... Purposed Kiting PK

  ... marginal or major core.   And to place strong applications into airbornewindenergy forum.  Sometimes I miss in both directions. 


2. A recent semi-poll was taken and the result was an encouragement to mention all facets of AWE into airbornewindenergy forum.    


3. Brainstorm sharing was encouraged. 


4. What might appear marginal to one developer might appear as potentially core to another. 


5. Often laundry lists of minors may not be seen when a seeming major or strong is flashing; the choice of sharing now or five years from now risks loss of view by creative participants.  I'd rather share than die without sharing. 


6. Personally, I do not think I have yet spent time showing non-feasibility of a seen potential AWES app; I tend to leave that flow to those keen on trying to show non-feasibility.  At some scale at some good need for some niche purpose ... an AWES app may have a place even at any cost.   And sometimes tiny seeds grow to be large trees; even your mention of "holding up one's pants" triggered a branch of AWES apps of holding up the pants around projects, yachts, houses, people, art projects; thanks for the "pants" seed;  The forum KiteApplications welcomes furthering on your pants app; one day, if that branch grows strong for attention in this present airbornewindenergy forum then someone might start a topic thread for its careful development. 


7. When a topic is not worth reply by someone, then such post simply vanishes into the archive without further bandwidth, but available for researchers who might see value in the seed.   Topic starters that do not receive a reply soon might still receive a reply later, maybe years later.   


8. EnergyKiteSystem.net does have a habit of gathering loose ends into tidy files and lists. That habit will continue. Laundry lists and more under lead topics.   Searchable by keyword from a search tool at http://energykitesystems.net 


9. It could be an interesting exercise to present a description of an app that someone estimates is NOT feasible for some reason. And at the presentation see if anyone could dispute the position.  Such has been going on concerning ST where one camp holds to feasibility and another camp argues ST is not feasible at certain altitudes; the arguments include engineering notes and economic notes. Lateral insights occur for some of us during the argument.   An effort to show an app feasible that shows non-success of the showing still has potential to advance the analysis skills of participants. 


10.  There seems to be various perspectives about what is "economic" and what is not economic.  The world in part seems resistant to see all the costs of using fossil fuels. Just what is the real total disease load of the fossil-fuel habit?     


11. Undones?  Many, as you indicated.  Even a comprehensive study of one of Doug S. patents has not been unfolded in open forum, even if someone has studied such patent in private.  What gems might be missing in open share by such undone study? 


12. To give energy to a topic: Reply and stay on that titled topic.    To bury a topic: Refrain from using "Reply" to such topic.  Such action gradually will let topics rise in the attention field of participants.  Various talents are held in our membership; some are sharper on mathematics, some are sharper in one branch of AWE and not another, some are keen on money matters related to projects, some are with ______talent______. Let that talent shine. 


Best, 

 ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14169 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Marginal Applications?
Lets agree at least that marginal topics exist in theory, and can be fatal distractions (try only discussing bow-ties in AWE).

I was not proposing any reduction in ideas, but a reduction in non-ideas (separate email fields, etc.), in order to concentrate value. Rare golden topics lose if unlimited marginal topics are mixed in an endless thicket of marginal ideas (esp. the troll topics). Lets not lose our carefully gleaned gold back in an increasingly diluted haystack (but still save the hay).

While its not yet time for the great down-select, we now do know enough to class some ideas as manifestly marginal, based on both practical and economic hurdles.

I propose invoking bird-flock noise as a problem in need of kites to be an example of an uneconomic and impractical app idea that would be a terrible distraction from RAD if multiplied unduely.



On Saturday, August 30, 2014 11:49 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14170 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Most Essential Ideas in AWE R&D
Lets presume generally that we live to serve others, with love and passion, but the essential ideas of AWE R&D are engineering-science related. Start with golden truisms (without rejecting them as cliches) then taper off the short list with increasingly specialized ideas. Stop short of "picking winners" (like what AWES architectures seem favored).

Most Essential Ideas in AWE R&D (DRAFT)

1) KIS
2) Test, test,...
3) Fly kites a lot (kite-sports at pro level, and acquire kite-related rigging and manual-trade skills)
4) Master Aeronautics knowledge (keep it light, be safe, etc.)
5) Master Energy tech (incl. cheap power economics)
6) Master Micro-Meteorology
7) Focus on critical AWES solutions (launching, landing, regulatory challenges, etc.)
8) Play the AWE R&D long game to win; stay positive, work cooperatively
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14171 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing
We had seen this guyed mast concept before, which shows TUDelft trying to solve "all-modes" operation by simple means.

The key capability required is to be able to reliably get the kite started into a step-tow sequence in order to fly up into usable wind. Otherwise, the kite must often long await the right surface wind to initiate a flight session. SkySails had the ship's way, under helm control, to tow its kite up into pay-wind.

The trickiest part of the launching or landing sequence is when the tether and wing fundamental harmonic match short-lined near the ground. It will take an extremely capable controller (or human pilot) to consistently ace launching and landing phases from a mast.


On Saturday, August 30, 2014 7:23 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14172 From: dave santos Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.
As JoeF rightly emphasizes, kites have many applications, and competing in the customer-delivery race is a possibility (towed kites and hybrids). Amazon and DHL are not the only customer-delivery drone R&D projects. Google's Project Wing seems to show some in-house E-VTOL inspiration from Makani, and has a tether-based payload landing method. Expect a long slog to market, but with enormous potential for the tech-

Google experiments with drone deliveries
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14173 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.
Powered resistive-set kite systems for
"distributive operations payload delivery missions"
E.g., Atair Aerospace - Powered Paraglider UAVs

 

 Comment:
      In some service, consider 
1. Sacrificial kite systems. 
2.  Return-by-UAV or ground-vehicle sets of used kite systems following multiple deliveries to an address or region (grouped return of systems used in the distribution operations). Compare return flight versus gathering to an occasional return effort.   That is, once a delivery is made, then leave the kite system at distribution target until later. 
3. Consider selling the delivering kite system along with some other delivered product; or have a buyer of the UAV near to the target address used for product delivery.
4. Prepare for return flights that carry first target's local product to another address. Leap-from or serial distribution. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14174 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Towers reach for the sky

Towers reach for the sky

Are they getting close to just throwing up their hands and 

noticing that tether sets may solve their climb to the sky?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14175 From: dougselsam Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"A six month suspension seems to me fair. Doug has again and again..." *** I propose a 1-month suspension for each false statement by anyone.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14176 From: dougselsam Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
"Take a vote to kick this guy out. DougS is nothing but a nuisance in my opinion." *** Thanks Clev.  Shows how much you know...  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14177 From: Harry Valentine Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Towers reach for the sky
In some parts of the world, small islands formed by volcanoes protrude upward from the ocean . . . and could serve as a foundation for tall towers . . . with hubs at 200 to perhaps 300-metres elevation above sea level. The higher the hub of tower based wind turbines are above ground, the bigger the diameter of the turbine and the lower the cost of the electric power . . . . the drawback in that such turbines need to be installed near major population centres where low-elevations winds are relatively constant.

AWE may have a market niche in the rural areas with smaller population and lower population density


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2014 20:05:25 -0700
Subject: [AWES] Towers reach for the sky

 


Towers reach for the sky

Are they getting close to just throwing up their hands and 
noticing that tether sets may solve their climb to the sky?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14178 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: National Bowtie Day
Doug,

Suspension should be for false AWE statements that are "intentionally ignorant". You have made so many such statements, it would be very long before you deserve to come back (unless you have remorse.)

False statements (like Gipe's Makani gaffe) that are unintentional, are apologized for and forgiven,

daveS


On Sunday, August 31, 2014 7:10 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14179 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.
Our kite and line rigging skills help us to see alternate methods to customer delivery others may have overlooked, even without us depending on kites per se.

For example, utility pole networks cover most cities, so we can see how mini-cableways might be run along these same poles, as a ready structural analog to our kite "towers" for a Bolonkin transport network. Such mini-cableways could convey huge numbers of small packets. It would be a small business to host a depot in each neighborhood that serves final delivery to the doorsteps of customers. The last delivery step might be by certified drivers in the new car-sharing networks.

The engineering challenge is to make of the standard utility pole infrastructure an addressable packet-switched network logically comparable to digital networks, or to the large package-sorting hubs that major delivery companies operate. This requires special building block hardware, like package-switching nodes for branched topology.

CC 4.x BY SA NC




On Saturday, August 30, 2014 7:56 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14180 From: Rod Read Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Kite basis for customer-delivery v. Amazon, DHL, Google, etc.
If you want a lesson in the very best delivery service in the world...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dabbawala
something like ~0.0004% package delay error into downtown Mumbai ; unbelievable!

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14181 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Ballistic Tether Deployment Methods (Throw-Bag Method)
There are many situations in theoretic and empiric AWE where "firing" a tether into place is a desirable capability, like pilot-spanning free-space or performing a kite-kill on a runaway or stuck-aloft kite.

Well-known ballistic models for launching tethers include traditional sailor's heaving-line, bow-and-arrow, compressed-air gun, aerotow, and so on. This white-water rescue Throw-Bag is closely related to the tree-climbers shot-bag, but includes line storage and pay-out. There is a risk that a bagged line can snarl if it rolls around in the bag, so extra line management like an end-take-off spool or rubber-band organizers (like parachute riggers use) may be best-

Throw bag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14182 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Laying Cable by Helicopter (AWES Construction Similarity-Case)
Once again we see TRL9 COTS subsystem solutions applicable to future AWES rigging. In this helicopter case, we can presume polymer cables are easier to carry aloft and will string over far larger distances (incl. messinger-lines, for the largest possible final cabling)-

Hughes Helicopter Stringing Up High Voltage Power Lines
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14183 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Tutorial on Electrical (Line) Stringing (general and aerial methods)
Note tensioned and aerial electrical stringing in routine use over obstacles as a realistic AWES methods analog-

Guidelines For The Construction And Maintenance Of Transmission Lines | EEP
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14184 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Faraday Cage Airborne Layer (application note)
Where lightning is a common hazard, there is proportionally greater risk to AWES (especially architectures depending on complex electronics, communications, and controls).

A suspended and grounded metallic net will act as a Lighting Barrier over the ground surface or around an airspace. Mesh-spacing can be quite large and ground-connections widely-spaced, if (high) mesh-altitude is of a comparable dimension. A conductive network will better absorb and regulate the peak-surge of individual discharges, compared to discrete conductors. A sample early scale is 1km high by .5km wide spacing, which should effectively eliminate lightening risk in the protected zone underneath.

This Faraday Cage method might grow to a basis for taming the ITCZ (equatorial thunderstorm zone) with AWES lattices that primarily tap the powerful upward convection kinetic energy (with less horizontal wind than elsewhere), and secondarily are protected for lightning degradation (and maybe even tap atmospheric electricity productively in niche cases). The conductive layer might travel seasonally with the slowly wandering ITCZ, or be stored off-season (as quiver-kites are stored).

CC 4.x BY SA NC
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14185 From: dave santos Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Novel Flapping, Looping, and Rotor Kites
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14186 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Laying Cable by Helicopter (AWES Construction Similarity-Case)
In support:   Stringing
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14187 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing
Hi Joe,
The tower can be seen in the video. I added more details to the description.
The complete project report is downloadable:
http://elib.uni-stuttgart.de/ opus/volltexte/2014/9072/pdf/ Haug_2012.pdf
Best, Roland
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 14188 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: Experimental setup for automatic launching and landing

Design of a Kite Launch and Retrieval System
for a Pumping High Altitude Wind Power
Generator
Diploma Thesis
For the Degree of
"Diplom- Ingenieur Luft- und Raumfahrttechnik"
(Dipl.-Ing. aer)
at the University of Stuttgart
Stefan Haug
October 26, 2012
Institute of Aircraft Design
Faculty of Aerospace and Geodesy
University of Stuttgart
&
Institute of Applied Sustainable Science Engineering and Technology
Delft University of Technology