Sorry Douglas
I think the point was, 
Don't change this awesome idea...
It's already a Daisy

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Gabor,

Be quiet. I do not want transforming your DS in SuperTurbine or in train of spaghetti, but only looking after a simple mean for a better acknowledgement. 

Perhaps people playing with gliders like on  www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByOB4luuvy4 could want trying a version with a turbine as a new discipline, then an autonomous version. Perhaps an autonomous version near mountains is dangerous for the glider, but there wind gradient is huge since above mountain wind speed can reach 30 m/s while being near zero in the low altitude zone. Contacting these people?

PierreB     

The values I gave some years ago for www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSWORXEy3tE was by far too high. Considering one soft wing which area is 300 m² and L/D ratio is 4 (this value is verified in my trials, and also for soft wings tested by Tu Delft, Windlift...:taking account of important drag of tether during crosswind maneuvers).

So the power is 240 kW, the same in the example of 30 looping units under an arch.

Following this example on the same basis, conventional HAWT have a ratio of 12 MW/4 km², and this time a normal use as directional towers is considered.But, and this is a very important point, the most part (excepted only the whole area of machines, something like 0.04 km² by taking account of the area of rotor in all directions) of land used can be also used for secondary uses like farming or fishing. It is not the case with crosswind AWES due to safety concerns: no people and no house under tethers.

A 4 km² land area is obtained by considering a 1.13 km tether as radius.

By putting only one wing of 240 kW, the ratio power/land used by OKB is 1/50 time the same ratio for HAWT,but yet lower by considering secondary uses:1/5000.

In case of maximization of swept area the 300 m² wing of which span is about 40 m becomes a 30 000 m² wing of which span is about 400 m (note the initial bunch of kites looks too difficult for safe maneuvers).Of course such a wing is by far above what it is possible.In this impossible case the ratio power/land used by OKB would be 2 times the HAWT ratio, and 1/50 by considering secundary uses.

Concerning airspace used  (altitude 600 m for OKB,and 120 m for HAWT) values for OKB are 1/300 (300 m² wing area) or 1/3 (30 000 m² wing area).

By taking account of secondary uses these value are not so different as values of 30 looping units under unidirectional arch vs unidirectional HAWT (1/520), the difference being a better optimization of space when there is not a kite-pilot (huge arch).

Generally AWES,particulary crosswind AWES, have far lower ratios power/land and space used than HAWT, and monstrously lower ratios considering secondary uses.

I don't even speak of management (launching, landing, maintenance, safety concerns, lifetime whith so many structural strengths due to the tethers...).

In utility-scale, tethers for crosswind AWES make two main problems: huge land and airspace used with not enough visibility for planes, and huge tensions in moving materials making them not enough secure and reliable.

But what is the problem in case of implementation of a dense farm of safer AWES like aerostats (Altaeros)? Probably less but yet important concerns in utility-scale.

So concerning tethered-AWES in utility-scale (replacing HAWT) should be forgotten, at least for a next future and in populated zones: only some applications like in remote country, or for use like meteorogical measures,or for some other niches, should be considered. The team of Altaeros has understood it: it is one reason of its success as becoming the first AWES being able to be marketed.One on the main goals for tethered-AWES should be making the same than Altaeros but without helium concerns.

PierreB

"The rim speeds would be in the .5 mach range, and there seems no scaling-law limitation to rings up to 10km across..."

Gliders would be too close each over,that making the "Glider-Ring" slowing down a little like a rotor with too much solidity. And piloting it would be a little like piloting airplines attached in a single file. Numerous parameters are to be solved,making this plan not working...

Let us help Gabor developing his invention (proved as his at least by the great search report with some "A", no "X",no "Y") of "un-tethered autonomous flying wind power plant", rather than flooding it in false good ideas flattering egos. The first step is making a prototype of a DSglider with turbine.

Has someone some ideas to integrate a turbine in a glider used in dynamic soaring?

PierreB 

DaveS,

DaveS wrote:"So now the -520x capacity-intensity result is dropping to -50x or maybe even 2x."

PierreB wrote:"By putting only one wing of 240 kW, the ratio power/land used by OKB is 1/50 time the same ratio for HAWT,but yet lower by considering secondary uses:1/5000." It is not the same, so your comment is not fair, and not precise as usual.

"Simple barrage netting at the surface, or a trench network, could allow dense human presence."This idea would be valid for a theater comedy;AWE is not a stage set.

"You still only allow

The traders of illusions generate pessimism.

PierreB

Besides tethering wings, the tether set of an AWES may have other uses. This topic thread invites the description of secondary and tertiary uses of tether sets during flight sessions (off-flight-sessions' uses of tether sets is another topic).

AWES Tether Uses

Start:

Hold line laundry.  Perhaps wet clothes for drying. Perhaps celebratory flags with messages. Perhaps conspicuity flags. Perhaps antenna holding. 

Hold bags of gifts for triggering release to people in play or emergency. 

Drive a tether so the tether cuts a block of cheese or butter or gel. 

Drive a tether so the tether saws wood, logs, wrecked cars. 

Drive a tether that is specially equipped to cut lines slated for decommissioning.

Have tether hold a series of auto-rotating blades in downwind HAWT fashion connected to drive a tether loop that drives groundgen (of various sorts for making sound, heat, noise, electricity, mechanical movement,...)

Have tether hold a series of drop lines for decoration, entertainment, barrage fencing, bird control, insect control, water-from-fog collection, art, ...

Have a tether hold a drop sheet for large walling, wind-turbulence rectifying, shading, reflection, bird guiding, odor guiding,...

Have a tether be illuminated from within or from without.

Have a tether be part of an area boundary. 

Have a tether be a pathway for moving materials, people, goods, water, chemicals, vibrations, messages, ...

...  add to list or expand items already mentioned.  Annotate as you wish. Make robust descriptions of mentioned or yet to be presented items. 

There may be uses of tethers in AWES that may add to the value of an AWES.