Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES13360to13409 Page 163 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13360 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13361 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13362 From: President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy In Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: AWES WILL REQUIRE PICs AND VOs

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13363 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13364 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13365 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13366 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13367 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13368 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13369 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13370 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13371 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13372 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13373 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13374 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13375 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Which are the missing technologies?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13376 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13377 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13378 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Critical-Path Trend (AWE in regular practice)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13379 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Another Curious Kinetic Kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13380 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13381 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13382 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Critical-Path Trend (AWE in regular practice)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13383 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13384 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13385 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13386 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13387 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13388 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13389 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13390 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13391 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13392 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13393 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13394 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13395 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13396 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13397 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13398 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13399 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13400 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13401 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13402 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13403 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: "Personal Attacks" Topic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13404 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: "Personal Attacks" Topic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13405 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Targets of AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13406 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: "Personal Attacks" Topic

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13407 From: mrbittertooth Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13408 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13409 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13360 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)
Just why would Google[X] not diversify it's AWE invetsments to include options from the Open Cooperative space?
JohnO
AWEIA
 
John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13361 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)

Google could diversify investments including Tu Delft, KiteGen, Ampyx, Windlift, SkyMill Energy...to name organizations and companies involved in groundgen AWES.


PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13362 From: President-protem, Airborne Wind Energy In Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: AWES WILL REQUIRE PICs AND VOs

"

Draft FAA sUAS Regs

AWES are UAS. sUAS rulemaking is proceeding and the FARs expanding accordingly. Draft rules call for a PIC and VO crew. A misconception in the AWE field is that autonomous operations will be permissible in a short time-frame. The safer bet is that many years must pass before the required Airworthiness is validated and Certificated, and that UAS and sUAS PIC/VO rules will apply."

From TACO 1.0


JohnO

AWEIA

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13363 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX conceding AWE prime airspace race(?)
We have long known that the Google founders, who live isolated in a golden bubble, would diversify AWE investment only if responsible underlings like Don Montague, Saul Griffith, and now Damon Vander Lind chose AWE testing diversification. They did not.

Instead they selfishly chose to bet everything on one very narrow extreme AWE concept, and have effectively locked Google into a high-complexity AWE straitjacket. Maybe only a spectacular fiasco of the M600 can now result in a Google course-change.

This is a great situation for those AWE players who evolved under Google's shadow. The lean-and-mean survivors are in a more competitive negotiating position in the M&A game, and may not even need Google at all. For a vain powerful Google to badly fail against open-AWE will be a healthy Darwinian outcome.

Makani's almost unnoticed rout from prime AWE airspace, due to self-inflicted engineering limitations, seems to mark the changing tide.




On Monday, July 28, 2014 1:49 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13364 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
"so many AWE scientists, affiliated with the world's top universities and aerospace players"  *** So why no progress?  Too stupid? "scientists"?  Are you sure?  Maybe AWE is showing the limitations of merely having a science degree or a steady job with a title of "scientist".  Maybe we've reached our limits.  Maybe we're just too dumb.  Remember "The Wizard of Oz" - one theme was that even if someone pins a fancy title on your chest, you are, in reality, the still the same person.  No title can force someone to come up with working solutions.  To me, AWE is today's real-life IQ test, and nobody is earning a passing grade.  Hey, at some point, you gotta laugh!  :)  ***
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13365 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,

You are the only AWE insider to claim "no progress", and it does apply to you. In fact, AWE progress in recent years is fantastic, as Miles Loyd himself asserts in his preface to the Springer AWE book, and active developers know firsthand.

Your insistence that such facts are "all lies" is your psychological defense of your own AWE prospects, where even engineering-physics scaling-laws are lies to you,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13366 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE
Joe: I'm not the first to note that by adjusting definitions, one can make any statement true.  I've pointed out, for example, that automobile engines are really a form of drag-based wind turbine, that provide internal weather (high pressure systems).  So, by that definition, the world is already powered by wind energy and everyone can just go back to sleep. 

In the real world though, people are not willing to go along with the "I can redefine everything faster than you can argue against it" game.  That is for the Joe F's and Dave S.'s of the world, with access to a computer, and "too much time on their hands".  Real people don't take it seriously - it is just playing word games.

Good luck convincing the world that paragliders "are a form of" airborne wind energy.  You guys have already tried to stretch AWE to including ALL jetliner flights, so I guess it must include all sailplanes, any plane landing into the wind, taking off into the wind, flyin with the wind. etc. etc. etc.  Good then, your job is finished, AWE is everywhere.  I guess that means Dave S. and John O would think they are in charge of all parasails now, too.  And all of aviation.  Gosh they have a lot of responsibility.  How soon before they are in charge of the entire world? 

Sure Joe, EVERYTHING is airborne wind energy.  What an easy way to get off the hook for the fact that you just can't DO AWE, and don't even try, but... by simply redefining the words "airborne wind energy", you've taken AWE from nowhere, to everywhere, in just a few years!  You are really a genius.  Thanks for your service to mankind!  :) 

Maybe Websters dictionary has an opening, and you could get a job there.  Tell them your plan to replace all words with just one word.  Tell them you've been noticing that just one word can describe everything in the universe.  Maybe they'll see the light and hire you to eliminate all words except one.  Who needs different words for different things, when just one word will do for everything! ***

"DaveS shows momentum to continue advances AWES and AWE matters"  *** Sure he does, Joe, sure he does... Whatever makes you guys feel good.  I have to say though, doing nothing is NOT the same as doing something.  Talk does not equal action.  Some people know this. ***


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <joefaust333@... Your text indicates to me that your notion of what AWE is
... is very different from what AWE is. Following your text, it
seems like you do not know that Jalbert's ram-air parafoil kite,
in itself, when flying is a form of airborne wind energy. It seems
as though you have missed most all of the AWE technology.
To help readers, I invite you to give your definition of AWE,
so that your definition may be compared with the flow of AWE
matters that has been occurring for centuries. Thanks.
DaveS has hundreds of working AWES occurrences recorded.

If what DaveS accomplishes does not fit your personal definition of
AWE matters,
then such will become simply clear and the matter need not be
nagged in the personal-attack manner that is becoming onerous.
DaveS shows momentum to continue advances AWES and AWE matters,
but perhaps not to fit your personal definition of AWE (we wait to
study your definition to see if anyone is doing actions that fit your
definition of AWE.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13367 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Dave S. I once suffered from similar delusions, that the world of wind energy would change by my mere words.  I had the rude awakening that cost of energy is the dominant factor.  That is based on the initial cost, and ongoing O & M costs, weighed against performance, period.  Low cost and reliability are key. 
Wind energy veterans have seen thousands of ideas seen as clever by their promoters.  Doesn't matter.  Performance is all that matters.  Zero performance = zero worth.  Most "progress" AWE has seen so far is finding out what NOT to do, showing what DOESN'T work.  Most that could have been learned just by asking me.  Seriously.  But, hey, if nobody wants to listen, Oh well... Have fun!  :) 

Dave S. I think you should get a pin that says "I am a genius... because I say so" and wear it.  If anyone questions it, just repeat it.  Who can argue with a Dave S., really?  Or who would want to, and what purpose would it serve?

Good luck and the world will await your generation of a single Watt, apparently forever, since, according to Joe, such mundane accomplishments as generating electricity are now not even relevant.  AWE is, instead, a mere "state of mind"!  Wheeeee!


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
You are the only AWE insider to claim "no progress", and it does apply to you. In fact, AWE progress in recent years is fantastic, as Miles Loyd himself asserts in his preface to the Springer AWE book, and active developers know firsthand.

Your insistence that such facts are "all lies" is your psychological defense of your own AWE prospects, where even engineering-physics scaling-laws are lies to you,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13368 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR

GoogleX will need a permanent exemption from part (e) below, to commercially operate an M600 in the NAS. kPower will not need such an exemption, since its UAS do not operate aerobatically (looping foil or other WECS under a stable pilot-lifter (ie Mothra)).

Checkmate?

14 CFR 91.303 - AEROBATIC FLIGHT.

§ 91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13369 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE
Doug,

More corrections to your sloppy pronouncements-

The strict physics definitions are only for wonks, not to "convince the world".

One must carefully define AWE case by case. Jet travel and paragliders only involve AWE when wind is helping.

"Whatever makes (us) feel good" requires you to get better at factual expression,

daveS


On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:08 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13370 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,

I have never believed mere words make change, as you confess to have believed. My consistent belief is in testing. I build and test almost every day. Once again, you are projecting your limitations on others.

So what have you got going, except your words?

daveS


On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:21 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13371 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR
"Checkmate?" *** you've been self-checkmated by your own mental limitations...   I wouldn't worry about everybody else :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13372 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
"I build and test almost every day" *** just nothing that works, eh?


---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13373 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
So when people speak of "wind energy", according to the Joe Faust/Dave Santos school of thought, they must actually mean:
1) All internal combustion engines
2) passive cooling by any breeze
3) Airplanes flying with prevailing winds
4) walking WITH the wind
5) cars driving WITH the wind
6) cars driving crosswind
7) riding horses WITH the wind
8) all recreational sailboats
9) all sailplanes and hang-gliders
10) Anyone flying a kite
All examples of "wind energy".  Need I go on?

And when we have an article saying how much power was generated "by wind energy" in the State of California for a given year, it includes all those activities, right?  I guess at that point, the contribution from actual wind turbines could safely be ignored, right?  Because words mean what Joe and Dave say they mean, right?  Forget the other 99.999% of the population.  Their opinions don't matter.

I'd say maybe you guys should take off the blindfolds and realize you exist in a world full of people who don't necessarily share your compulsion to redefine everything out of existence.  Most people will not agree with your self-serving re-definitions that exist ONLY to rationalize your endless lies. (amazing)

There is nobody making wind-generated electricity by airborne means today.  Nobody.  Not NASA.  Not Lockheed.  Not Boeing.  Not Christina Archer.  Not Wayne German.  Not the Italians.  Not the Dutch.  Not the Nigerians.  Not Google,  and certainly not Dave S. or Joe F.  At this moment, or any given moment, the electron count is most likely.... zero.  That is a simple fact.  You guys purport to have it all figured out, somehow being mysteriously "in charge" of it all, etc., but in reality, you all make yourselves irrelevant to AWE.  At this point, I'd have to say, you guys are all talk, peppered with a strong dose of delusion.  Anyone can talk.  It means nothing.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13374 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR
Doug,

Any checkmate credit goes to the FARs, not me. In context, FARs applicable to AWE are not one of my personal "mental limitations" compared to all other AWE developers. The original post is supporting evidence of lifelong knowledge. My dad was an airshow daredevil, and I grew up watching all sorts of pilots and the FAA negotiate exempted aerobatics. I also worked out TACO (with fellow-pilot JoeF). From our technical perspective, even Google must face the FAA music.

You mental limitation here is being unable to post constructively from knowledge of FARs. To never regard AWE as serious regulated aviation is your checkmate, as your reply shows, no question mark needed. You are only posting as a garrulous troll here, and should find a chat forum for empty chatter,

daveS


On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:42 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13375 From: benhaiemp Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Which are the missing technologies?

Some progress was achieved: strong and light tethers, knowledge of meteo, instruments for automation...

I see two fields being able to be decisive: UV resistant fibers (for soft wings), and self-production of hydrogen (an aerostatic balloon can be required, at least to increase the angle of tether allowing far less space used).

 

PierreB


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13376 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,

Only you find "nothing works". In fact, I cannot think of any experiment of mine that did not work at all (but some work best). This seems to explain why my happiness over AWE progress exceeds yours. I am content that many kite experts have been convinced by seeing my AWE demos work in public.

Note also that your sourness and lack of love toward the whole world is at odds with the leadership advice folks like Branson and Jobs give us. Let the top whiner, in not even trying to persistently build and test, be the sign of the AWE loser, for whom "nothing works",

daveS




On Monday, July 28, 2014 12:45 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13377 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
Doug,

JoeF is no idiot, but a true polymath. You seem doomed if you can only see idiocy everywhere, but are helpless to invent solutions. Most of your red-herring examples of AWE are not even airborne, and some are not wind. If an idiot thinks JoeF and I are talking about non-airborne cases of non-wind energy, we can only patiently correct the record.

I get lots of complaints that you are not simply kicked out of the Forum for deeply failing to practice professional engineering discussion, but only puke on everyone. Most of the interesting discussions with key folks now occurs off-Forum, where you cannot disrupt it.

The AWES Forum is for those who keep track of technical meanings at a professional level, to create solutions. You are not helping,

daveS



On Monday, July 28, 2014 1:04 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13378 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Critical-Path Trend (AWE in regular practice)
Every year Doug has less and less basis to uselessly complain that there are no AWES working regularly in the world. Its just like the Wright Brother's era, where it took years for aviation to become 24/7, and silence the ignorant skeptic class.

While its still true that there are moments when no one in AWE R&D is testing, so many new teams and prototypes continue to emerge, that the window for Doug's complaint is relentlessly closing. Keep in mind that Doug does not keep careful track of critical-path trends while claiming "no progress".

If only all AWE R&D teams were to report publicly their hours, days, and now even weeks-long testing sessions (that include calms), it would be clear to all that Doug's complaint is merely unprofessional impatience with the natural pace of progress. Its not like he has helpful advice to speed RAD up, but at least his carping does not slow the real progress.


* AWE in the narrow sense of dedicated AWES prototypes.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13379 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Another Curious Kinetic Kite
Kinetic kites come in many forms, and they are interesting studies in early AWE, as any of them can be hacked to make a bit of power, even by school-kids. This is a playful side of modern AWE still in its infancy, getting ready to grow.

We have been monkeying with New Tech's Kinetic kite (Designed by Yukio Akiyama of Japan)for a couple of years. Flown by its nose as line-junk, it really goes berzerk in a blow, and has to be reinforced. We are adding phased pumping lines and a wire crankshaft to continue the play-experiments. Jansen's Strandbeests are powered by the same sort of wing undulations (and spirit of fun) and get quite frisky.

Here is a longer variant of the kinetic kite by an unknown Weifang designer-supplier ("sunleimiaojuan"). An inventive leap might be to replace the long spine with a longer lighter string loadpath, if flown as a line-junk AWES (CC 4.0)


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13380 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR
"Any checkmate credit goes to the FARs, not me." *** as long as you have an excuse for no progress, right? ***
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13381 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
"I cannot think of any experiment of mine that did not work at all (but some work best)." ***So which shows promise?  Which will you pursue?  Any data?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13382 From: dougselsam Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Critical-Path Trend (AWE in regular practice)
"Every year Doug has less and less basis to uselessly complain that there are no AWES working regularly in the world" ***Who's complaining?  I'm just noting.  Mere commentary.  You can do the complaining.  I just think it's funny that the people calling themselves the smartest people in the world can't think their way out of a paper bag.  AWE is a great test of who can make things happen versus who just has a big mouth.  Funny funny funny how "all the king's horses and all the king's men" can't seem to think beyond "kite-reeling".
1) We all know there is more wind at higher heights;
2) So many people have indicated a wish to harness that as a next step in wind energy;
3) So many people and organizations have been posturing for years now, claiming expertise;
4) Millions of dollars have been thrown at it;
5) The people attempting it declare victory ahead of the fact, with no basis;
6) But the methods pursued, and claims made, seem childlike;
7) The results are not impressive
What can you do but laugh?  This is FUNNY!  Well, unless you are a warmist.  Then you THINK the end of the world is here, because you think (hope) temps will increase in a  runaway fashion.  Except for one thing: When temps do NOT rise in a runaway fashion, rather than being relieved, the warmists get ANGRY.  Why are they angry when they WERE (supposedly) worried about temps getting too warm, then it DOESN'T get too warm, but instead cools a bit?  Why?  Because they aren't really worried about temps at all, they are worried about BEING RIGHT, and when temps cool, it makes them NOT RIGHT, so they hate it.  They SAY they hate warming, but they really LOVE warming and HATE COOLING becuase cooling makes them wrong.  Idiots, idiots, idiots.  The people SAYING they are against "global warming" actually DEMAND global warming.  When it doesn't happen, they want it to happen so bad they make up the data.  Anything for more warming.  For them, it HAS to get warmer, or they have no purpose, and their indispensable "opinions" are revealed as merely repeating the hype of others.   Truth is stranger than fiction.  If you tried to make all this stuff up as a storyline, it would not be considered believeable.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13383 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: GoogleX/Makani v FAA Aerobatic FAR
Doug wrote: "as long as you have an excuse for no progress, right?"

Wrong.

Makani has in fact made amazing progress in the high-complexity AWES space since 2006, and the trend lines predict economically viable systems of this sort (compared to current wind power) even within your lifetime. No excuses required that low-complexity AWE is making even grander progress, and is starts more in harmony with today's FARs. NextGen's 2025 completion will float all boats.

This topic, Makani's challenge with FARs, is not about an AWE subject-matter-expert who annoys you. They are competing with the entire soft-wing groundgen movement, and you are the one without reported progress,

daveS






On Monday, July 28, 2014 5:38 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13384 From: dave santos Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,

Right now parafoils with groundgens are trending worldwide, but many other ideas remain in play.

I will peruse testing scaled-up AWES of many kinds. You never seem to remember professional AE "targets", like broad flight testing, compared to advocating unprofessional picking of AWE winners without testing, and ranting about dandruff. Upon completion of major testing of all the world's AWES contenders, I will peruse the winning racehorses.

As for data, my videos are videogrammetric data mines. They provide a time base, geometry, dynamics, and so forth. I publish weights and measures of kite elements and loads, so anyone can check the basic math. Of course, our community of AWES developers offer a mountain of data for you.

No one expects that you seek to study the data carefully, since you don't think AWE even exists. You are perusing far less AWES R&D than the rest of us, as far as anyone can tell,

daveS


On Monday, July 28, 2014 5:41 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13385 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: The Top Kite-Flyers in AWE
Doug,
1. We await your personal definition of AWE.
2. Perhaps be helped by participating in the thread titled "Targets of
AWE" where an inclusivity is intended; if you have a tunnel vision for
a certain sector of AWE, then please consider expressing such by way
of the tool of "target" discerning. It feels like you might have a
certain target that you might express; and maybe you want all the AWE
world to focus just on one of AWE's targets... yours; please express
it; thanks.
3. You seem to have created a bunch of paper tigers about the definition thing.
4. There is high focus for several AWE targets. It seems like you are
interested in at least one of the AWE targets. Please develop such
interest and hopefully share such; please consider respecting that
others may be working on some AWE targets that might not intrest you;
consider refraining from calling so many people derogatory names,
etc., when they are simply working on AWE targets different from your
interest apparently.

Best,
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13386 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug, your statement about my position is not correct. You published
in this thread: "according to Joe, such mundane accomplishments as
generating electricity are now not even relevant." That is false.
Rather, generating electricity is one of the significant targets of
AWE; accomplishments in that target flow are being made by many teams;
and such accomplishments are deemed relevant; I have a continual
investment in noting such accomplishments; and I have trusted that you
have been around observing such care. So, why are you putting up
false positions?
Lift,
JoeF

On 7/28/14, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13387 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
Thanks, DaveS.
Doug really needs to be told that he is simply being tolerated and that his posts are now mostly ignored and considered unworthy of any response.

---------- The Bible, King James Version ----------

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

 Further lifts.
JohnO
AWEIA

John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
Managing Consultant & CEO
Hardensoft International Limited
<Technologies or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13388 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
On 2014-07-28 22:03, dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Nobody can say that I am standing on Doug's side. We are in disagreement
regarding several topics, where Doug's incompetence is readily
apparent. (See our debates in this forum.)

Furthermore I highly appreciate JohnO's wisdom that guides the disputes
in this forum in a rational direction, like in this case.

DaveS and JoeF's contribution from a technical point of view is always
worth listening to.

That is, I agree with JohnO's and Dave's last letters. Still, in this
case there is a real opportunity to easily check Doug's statements with
some obvious facts. Let's not miss this opportunity.

Therefore, if anybody knows about other facts that refute Doug's above
statement, please let us know.

Gabor Dobos
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13389 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Joe: I may be reacting to the Dave S. tactic of being completely unreasonable with no regard for a fair debate, or even a sensible debate.  It is only Dave S. problems acknowledging reality that even began even the TONE of a "debate" here.  I'm not the first to notice.  What's to debate, if not for you guys constantly making false statements, such as "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind energy." which is a ridiculous position.  Can you not see the "grasping at straws" nature of this?  Can you not see that you say it only to "seem" to remain "correct" when constantly stating, on the one hand that 100 teams failing is success, and, on the other hand, that this 100-year-old attempted art of AWE is "a new baby"? 

In my opinion, you're falling more and more into this "unreasonable" camp lately.  It seems that improving on existing wind energy, which generates electricity, becomes a forgotten notion, once you and Dave S. get on a roll.  The entire process of electrifyiing the world seems to have passed you by, while you try and exchange what COULD BE progress, for a "steam-punk fantasy", where the world will forget electricity, and instead start powering industry directly by drag-based wind machines that require a human attendant, piloting the wind energy system "for the honor".  Maybe we can use leather belts and long driveshafts on the ceiling like in the 1800's eh?  You guys are SO out-of-it, you literally can't even grasp the nature of the modern world, let alone be creating state-of-the-art aeronautical breakthroughs.

Rather than address the actual challenge, and act like we are in the 21st century, you merely backtrack to literal nothingness (no power being created) and declare, as though a dictator, that, since flying objects take some power to remain aloft, that any flying object IS airborne wind energy.  That is your foot-in-the-door to saying AWE even exists on a day-to-day basis.  Do you think nobody notices you long ago went "off-the-rails" with regard to truth and accuracy, having degenerated to merely redefining words in lieu of coming up with any workable system?  That nobody notices you build nothing and then rationalize your position of some sort of AWE leader, by constantly finding little things that COULD SOMEHOW be rationalized, by vastly stretching definitions, as AWE, such as flying a paper-airplane when a gust of wind hits?

Suddenly, according to you guys, tying some blue tarps together and letting them fly becomes "airborne wind energy".  According to you, now, anything that flies counts as "airborne wind energy".  Anything else you want to add to the list?  I just don't think there is any reason to keep redefining words to bolster what are really lies, trying to claim AWE is a robust and longstanding industry on the one hand, and a newborn baby on the other.  You guys have devolved into typical internet personalities that think sitting there all day playing with your computer and redefining words is making any progress, in any direction.  I'm just pointing this out becuase I see a lot of potential in you, and I see a few past accomplishments, but I don;t think this attempt by you two to hijack the intellectual high ground in AWE is working.  You guys are NOT occupying any high ground, but rather endlessly making erroneous statements that will be seen in a historical context to have been, not only in error, but completely over-the-top, far into fools' territory.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13390 From: dougselsam Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
Thanks for your opinion John, and for the bible quotes that indicate I should not even waste the time to keep responding to Dave S.  I agree with them.  Another quote I like is "It's better to be silent, and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."  We can all improve, every day.
Meanwhile, I've been curious about something for quite a while now:  It's great to see anyone enthusiastic about Airborne Wind Energy, and I think it's fantastic to have people from all over the world giving their opinions, and sharing their insights.  What I've been trying to figure out is, what is your interest in AWE?  What opinions do you have, and what insights can you share?  Besides Dave S. and Joe naming you as "president", what is your actual involvement with AWE? I don't remember hearing of any AWE projects you're involved with, or working on.  I have not seen you render any technical opinions, any commentary on any AWE technology.  In fact, while I see Dave S. and Joe F. have you as "president protem" of an "industry trade association", I scratch my head at the notion of an "industry association" before there is "an industry", and why the "president" of such an association can go on for years in this "position", without ever discussing AWE.  Imagine the NHRA or the AAA forming in the 1800's, before anyone had a car running - can you say "cart ahead of the horse"?  Beyond that, as you've astutely pointed out, you have Dave S. stating in no uncertain terms that "expert kiteflyers" will rule the day in AWE, as though he has visited the future and has come back to tell us what he's seen. Meanwhile his head is actually stuck in the 1800's.
I'm not sure if anyone else is wondering, what is YOUR angle on AWE?  What's the connection here?  Where does your interest even come from?  How many years have you been interested in AWE?  Do you have a history that you could share?  What system do you think is most promising?  Why?  What research or effort are you involved with?  Is there anything being done in Nigeria, or in your area, that you could share with the rest of the class?  I'll give an example:  Dan'l contributed an idea on here, (spiralairfoil) and even though my response was "that's a typical old idea that gets regurgitated every so often", he at least brought SOMETHING to the table.  He at least contributed to the discussion.  The only thing I hear from you is perhaps a semi-annual, brief comment, on someone's style of internet posting, some mundane observation regarding one person's choice of words, for example.  You must have more to contribute than that.  What is it you actually DO in the field of AWE?  You must have something to share besides such mundane occasional comments on netiquette, right?  I'd love to hear more of your actual involvement and opinions on AWE.  I, personally, could do without the brief comments once a year, without knowing the slightest thing about you, and your role in AWE, besides Joe and Dave having labeled you as "president" of their fantasy-world.  So I'd look forward to your sharing of your thoughts on AWE, and your participation in the discussions on this list, and I'd love to know more about you and your interest and history with AWE, or any other relevant/related field, as well as your technical opinions on what methods seem most promising to you.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13391 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,
The creation of false quotes is not helpful; people are tempted
to correct your false quoting of them. Please consider finding the
exact quotation that you wish to make a statement about. Your post
just above had "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind
energy." as though that was some quote of someone. I find no one
making that quotation. I get the feel you created the false quote to
feed some argument. Maybe you created the false quote trying to
express what I said that the flying Jalbert parafoil is a form of
airborne wind energy; my statement did not go to the level of totality
of "constitute" ... but rather noted the raw important physics of the
scene. A kite system operating is converting the wind's energy in to
many sorts of energies; some clever people are using those conversions
to practical effects; and more is unfolding; such similar matter is
centuries old; some progress to new applicatons of the converted
energies is occurring; there is both old and new in the mix.
We still await your personal definition of AWE, so we may respect
you relative to your definition. That you might share such one day is
hopeful, but be prepared that the field of AWE might in practice be
larger than your defintion; we await to see yours before concluding or
discussing. You have not given the world a DougS starting point in
AWE relative to definition.
You are still invited to post targets of AWE in the topic thread
dedicted to "Targets of AWE". Your contributions in such topic
thread will be respected. If a target of AWE is missing in that topic
thread, please state it for All to see; thanks.
Kite energy systems convert the wind's energy to forms of energy,
not power. When the energy is used over time, then one observes that
power occurs.

It seems you stumble by staying in the broad-brush arena. Consider
that when you mention tarps used in a kite-energy system, you might
technically examine openly whether or not the kite-enrgy system using
tarps is or is not a kite-energy system; we will read your analysis
carefully. Consider examining if COTS tarps have or have not any play
in the development of kite-energy systems; such open careful examining
might serve the AWE flow more than repeating simplistic personal
attacks. How much energy per dollar invested in a tarp-using AWES can
be taken to remote work areas by using COTS tarps in kite-energy
systems? Such analysis is hard work; display of careful analysis and
experimental results are invited on such topic.
Doug, it seems you hold to certain thresholds of achievement;
anything short of the threshold seems to get your condemnation. Clear
stating of the thresholds would be interesting. But teams short of
anyone's stated threshold are only that: short of someone's threshold
or marker; I opt to give deep reverence for the gestation period where
earlier steps and marks are established while keeping the grand
visions described, whatever such are. You are invited to clearly
state your AWE thresholds of achievement; and you are free value
pre-thresholders as you might; for group's sake, though, you are asked
not to nag with the "idiot" text slams; perhaps just state your
opinion which might be in my paraphrase: "YOU

On 7/29/14, dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13392 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
[hit wrong key and sent above note without finishing. I continue hereon: ]

.. "You do not show proof of meeting my clearlly stated performance
threshold of achievement, therefore I hold you as a ______ ".
Repeat nagging is not necessary; we can read and search the record and
know your opinion of any certain project performance. Others might not
agree with your appraisal, and that is fine too; we all might benefit
from the analysis and respects of others on the matters.

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13393 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
A collection of definitions of a "kite" has been growing for all.
And additional definitions are welcome.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/akiteis.html

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13394 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

KiteGen is an interesting decade-old AWE venture with a business strategy based on claiming to hold blocking patents. Their technical videos seem to only show kites in barely functioning phases, with no data on cycle-repeatability. They censor technical questions on the KiteGen Forum, avoid participation at conferences, and believe themselves to be the "sole professional actor" (see below) in AWE. They are funded by SABIC Ventures on this basis. Many of us therefore worry that SABIC's deep-pockets is funding an AWE troll-patent strategy against all others, and propose free AWE-forums discussion to explore and resolve high-stakes concerns by open cooperation.

Here is Massimo, KiteGen's Founder, in his own words to a small kPower circle; claiming an incompetent WOW somehow "stole millions" from KiteGen, dismissing JoeF's stellar contributions, and apparently quite unaware of the depth and diversity of competing AWE concepts-

guys,
you do not have any title to talk about tropospheric wind power, objectively.
The censoring you make to KiteGen is far worse, denying any evidence.
Your support to the fully incompetent WOW, that stole millions $ to
KiteGen, was harmful and was deliberately pursued to annoy us.
The KiteGen brand is clearly our, and you still report the Fagiano story.
You offended all technicians, with some competence on the issue, they
do not any more consider interesting participate to your initiative.
It's pity because was initially a clever initiative and I do not
understand Joe that wasted and is wasting a lot of work.
Fortunately we opened another channel of communication without
immature disturbances.
You are still thinking to be a worldwide patent office/examiner, that
is not the case.
Your opinion on patents are ridiculous as your perception of the true
innovation.
Finally you behave as trolls without any added value.
The intention to have a direct contact with Sabic is a child idea.
if you consider to change attitude, contact me again, if not the case
please stop annoy us, in any case we do not belongs to your hobbyist
AWE concept.
KiteGen without any doubt is the sole professional actor in the new
field, the other are desperately looking for unlikely different
technical solution instead to negotiate with KiteGen.
Life is too short to wasting time fighting against the evidence, if
you need a role in the energetic revolution i recommend to change
attitude, instead you will be remembered as the idiot that slowed with
a lot of noise a paramount mankind occasion.
Your choice.
M 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13395 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
The over-1000 current AWE professional actors known might have
something to say about that "sole" slant.
http://www.energykitesystems.net/AWEstakeholders/index.html

On 7/29/14, dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
<AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13396 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
Doug,

Get the facts before misrepresenting AWEIA, which is an older and truer leader than AWEC, with its pay-wall leadership. Its not like you are offering anything positive here.

JohnO earlier this year publicly called for a vote-of-confidence, and AWEIA treasurer-secretary, Ed Sapir took the votes. Only six people voted, but they all sustained JohnO. Its very clear that far more folks would have voted for JohnO, if you had not driven so many folks from the Forum with your often profane anti-academic crusade. 

JohnO has done more for AWE, and in a more positive spirit, than you have, including creating AWEIA's valued web presence, and mediating disputes between AWE players. Its unfair and untrue of you to claim JohnO is only sustained by JoeF and me. He has far wider support, and its you who seem to have no supporters. Read Gabor for further confirmation. That JohnO had to complain to you directly is as shocking as DaveL's rebuke to you. If you want to run for AWEIA president, or help someone of your choice, do so, but don't expect to make useful changes by calling everyone idiots.

Surely JohnO is not unwise as to bet on one AWE concept, as a serious leader of a diverse R&D community, with many concepts on the table. We are still digesting the news that you no longer believe in rigid drive-shafts to high altitude, since you pimped them so hard for so long. Where is your soft driveshaft progress for JohnO to support for testing with all other contenders?

daveS


On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 8:21 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13397 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Redefining words or redefining targets of AWE?
Doug,

Where was this quoted from (?)- "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind energy." 

This does not get a match on Google* so it recalls the standing complaint that you do not care to quote accurately or fairly. Please do better, or let it go,

daveS

* Google- No results found for "All Jalbert-style parafoils constitute airborne wind energy.".


On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:42 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13398 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

I propose to rename and redefine AWEIA as AWEAIA: Airborne Wind Energy Against Industry Association.  Against Makani and other companies in AWEC, against NTS, against KiteGen...

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13399 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
Pierre,

Its AWEC that is really blocking a healthy AWE industry (if KiteGen's AWEC conference no-show is you topic justification here). AWEIA does support fairness to Makani, NTS, and KiteGen according to the ethics-code provisionally adopted. Use that document to reference your complaints.

Recall that you had no problem with Guido's personal decision to ban of AWEIA from participating at AWEC2013, where your supporting participation instead was to play the piano, which did not fill the gaps. By contrast, JohnO was recognized as a supportive player at Leuven, where AWEC's secretive exclusionary practices were not allowed. Note also that Makani/Joby has abandoned AWEC, after having been central to its formation as an AWEIA competitor. AWEC seems unable to get a 2014 conference going without AWEIA's help. Its AWEC blocking us as a professional best-practice industry, not AWEIA.

Finally, be reminded that AWEIA has long proposed an open cooperative merger of AWEC and AWEIA, within AWEC's US CA C6 incorporation. AWEC's secret governance does not allow even you, even as its top public allie, to participate in the rejection of AWEIA openness and the abolition of AWEC pay-to-play domination.

So enjoy the freedom we give you to make jokes about AWEIA on the open AWES Forum, as the naive tool of the secret side of AWEC. Represent them as best you can, for a bit of balance in the KiteGen conference-skipping discussion,

daveS




On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 2:54 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13400 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
Correction: I unintentionally wrote "abolition" instead of "unabolished" with regard to AWEC's pay-to-play secret-governance policy, which remains in place. Sorry.


On , dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13401 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE

AWEAIPAA: Airborne Wind Energy Against Industries Personal Attacks Association,




 

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13402 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: idiots, idiots, and more idiots...
Doug,
JohnO, for shown qualities, was originally voted by AWEIA founders
as "president protem" awaiting membership formalism and voting for the
next step. Perhaps one day you may wish to run for AWEIA president.
Our contemporary AWE industry is growing. The present level of growth
might not fit your thresholds for arrangements; feel free to help grow
positive aspects of the AWE industry. We await your definition of AWE
to add to others' definitions.
Thanks for any tech talk you have given and for that which you may give.
Lift,
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13403 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: "Personal Attacks" Topic
Pierre,

Your invocation of "Personal attacks" is a separate topic from KiteGen, unless you are mainly referring to Massimo's personal dismissal of JoeF's work. Doug makes and gets many personal attacks, and you also are known to do so. Use this topic to discuss such personal attacks as together.

Feel free to take up JohnO's AWEC-blocked conference participation versus your AWEC-invited piano-event, and the perception that you did not care. Maybe you do care about JohnO as a person, and the perception that you sided with his AWEC persecution was unfair,

daveS

PS Note that I resigned from AWEIA to remove Guido's pretext for his AWEIA blacklist. JohnO has not been able to persuade me to rejoin when Guido releases me and accepts AWEIA as a legitimate player to cooperate with a reformed AWEC.

Therfore, any "personal attacks" I make are my own, not AWEIA's, so keep track. Be aware that AWEC secretly attacks individuals, with your seeming approval (please correct this if instead you disapprove of the secretive AWEC blacklisting process). 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13404 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: "Personal Attacks" Topic

DaveS,

 

Your unfair and aggressive behavior, duly mentioned by JohnO (I do even not speak about some real leaders in AWE) , is the cause of what you call your eviction of AWEC2013, (you can also add NearZero etc.). At the same time you are the only responsible one for the eviction of JoeF or for JohnO for these events. You do not assume your responsibilities by doing mediocre personal attacks.

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13405 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Targets of AWE
Meterorlogical:
Pierre Benhaïem of France has recently mentioned that meteorlogical
applications may be one of the contemporary options for an AWE-target
set. Several centuries ago, such target category was highly present.
And today's opportunities are far beyond what they did in the 1800s
with AWES towards meteorlogical concerns. Perhaps Pierre will expand
his vision for this target branch.

Personal Charging:
And this year an old target was strongly mentioned again by DaveS:
personal-charging AWES. There is underway in kPower some steps toward
getting AWES personal charging systems ready for the commercial
market.

AWES Toys:
Important for world-mind-set evolution for eventual wide-understanding
of AWE might be the AWES target set of toy AWES. Light up the wing
set; drive a music player; provide electricity for a hand-held
flashlight; drive a display screen that reports about the electricity
being generated by the AWES toy. Much more. Put such
scientific-demostratin toys into the school-teachers' tool collection.

AWE Sports
Growing the world's relation with AWES could be accomplished in part
by the growth of sport competition in energy kite systems with various
sub targets. Already there are the AWE branches of recreational and
sport kiting, power-kiting transport sports, hang gliding,
paragliding; to such AWE branches could be specialized-task
fulfillment competitive sports. Among the specializd tasks could be
the generation of sound, light, or electricity. Use of electricity
generated by a competitior at a competition field could exciting,
depending on designers and officials. Safety first!

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13406 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: "Personal Attacks" Topic
Pierre,

JohnO wrote that I am "aggressive" and "uncompromising", but not "unfair", to my knowledge. I apologize for any errors, and only ask that you carefully report them. I do not mind personal attacks as long as there is technical knowledge shared.

I boycotted AWEC2013, in protest of JohnO's exclusion. "Eviction" is the wrong English word; nobody was evicted. You did not have a problem playing music for JohnO's persecutors, or you would show some hint of sympathy for his exclusion. We all deserve welcome at conferences, and the chance to help.

The only personal attacks in NearZero's process was to censor JoeF and me from making technical arguments against the Makani architecture. NearZero refuses to make pubic the email trail revealed to exist between the inside parties, but its well known that KenC and Makani closely coordinate public relations. JoeF and I are still awaiting full disclosure and we stand by our technical opinions.

MikeB censors along similar lines, to suit his biases. You are self-censoring, if you do not ask him, as your idea of an "AWE expert", to evaluate the WheelWind.

You seem content to support shameful insider secrecy in each of these cases, on the open AWES Forum, with no sense of irony,

daveS


On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 4:36 PM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13407 From: mrbittertooth Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
Attachments :
    We_the_People@WOW... we remember that in 2011 we received an offer to buy Ippolito's systems (the Kitegen®) with a multi-million € tag price. Time to get the machine, 1 year (they claimed they had an already fully booked production line).

    Then, in 2012, Kite Gen Research became "the third group to express interest regarding the aluminum [sic!] smelter located in Sardinia run until today by Alcoa."
    "(...) A relatively big Kitegen Stem wind farm at regime (200 Stems= 600 MW) could provide continuous power to the smelter at 20 €/MWh (...)"
    Read more: <http://www.kitegen.com/en/2012/09/21/kitegen-and-alcoa-updates/
    Now, for the SABIC venture. As far as we know, back in 2012 or early 2013, KGR (Ippolito's company) received co-financing from Italy's Piedmont Region, to develop rigid wings for its Kitegen®, with a need to match €700,000 in public funds with a €300,000 in equity and -- that's our view -- that's probably where SABIC kicked in.

    The Kitegen website states: "The KiteGen® Group has been awarded a first contract to power the world’s largest Carbon dioxide (CO2) Capture & Utilization (CCU) plant for Jubail United Petrochemical Company (...) KiteGen will be responsible for the concept and basic engineering, front end engineering design (...) and future maintenance of the power facility to be completed on a fast-track schedule. Generators machines mass production are set to be achieved in 2015 and the pilot installations in 2016."
    <http://kitegen.com/tag/sabic/
    Hey, people: Hold your breath 'cause 2016 is just around the corner!

    WOW sold its stake in KGR at a loss in 2013. Because we are incompetent, of course. Anyway, as much as we regret that a letter addressed "to a small kPower circle" is being published on an open forum, presumably without the consent of the author, we can't help it, we have to underline that the phrase referencing "(...) WOW, that stole millions $ to KiteGen (...)" is nothing but slander, pure and simple.

    This abrupt patent claims from Mr. Ippolito are nothing new; it's a cycle that repeats itself (just like a yo-yo) every time they need more money.

    Just another little piece of evidence that, among the many professional actors in AWE, Mr. Ippolito is really a sole.

    --
    G.

    =================================================
    Gaetano Dentamaro
    President, CEO, WOW SpA - http://wow.pe/
    <gaetano.dentamaro@wow.pe +39 340-2417.728
    Skype: bittertooth
    =================================================
    That government is best which governs least.
    Henry David Thoreau
    =================================================

    dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13408 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/29/2014
    Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
    The claim of: "thanks [sic, to] the unprecedented net energy ratio of
    the fully owned exclusive concept outperforming, at least, tenfold any
    other renewable energy technology."

    ??: "outperforming" ____? ...
    ??: "any other renewal energy technology" ____ ?
    ?? "tenfold" ____?
    ??: "exclusive concept" ____?

    Support for such claims should be interest!
    What is the concept that is supposed to be "exclusive" ?

    ~ JoeF



    On 7/29/14, awes@bittertooth.org [AirborneWindEnergy]
    <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13409 From: dave santos Date: 7/29/2014
    Subject: Re: KiteGen as "sole professional actor" in AWE
    Gaetano,

    Thanks for stating for the record that WOW did not "steal millions" from KiteGen, just as you have corrected Massimo regarding his contradictory public claims to have (or not) blocking patents. It was KiteGen that was wrongly attempting to monopolise WOWs small-investor capital on terrible equity terms.

    Congratulations on successfully escaping the KiteGen investment trap. We hope WOW will engage SABIC Ventures in discussions on how to also escape KiteGen's continued pattern of deceptive claims, to perhaps open up SABIC venture capital for broad AWE participation, as a better plan for all. SABIC would do well to partner with WOW, and benefit from its real-world experience.

    Let the world be on notice that kPower champions transparency in its business dealings, and does not owe Massimo any confidentiality, given his unilateral censorship. The disclosure of Massimo's letter is made in the context of KiteGen censorship of its Yahoo Group, to alert KiteGen investors of the censorship complaint. The letter confirms that KiteGen is censoring information believed essential to its investors, and the AWES Forum is the alternative public venue for the censored content to be shared,

    daveS


    On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 5:19 PM, "awes@bittertooth.org [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com