Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                                AWES1322to1372
Page 7 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1322 From: Carlo Perassi Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1323 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: TU Delft Course +++ Kite Dynamics Symposium 2009

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1324 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Electric Kite Vehicles

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1325 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1326 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Electric Kite Vehicles

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1327 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1328 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1329 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1330 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1331 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1332 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Traction kiting :: garden of AWECS participants

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1333 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1334 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1335 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1336 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1337 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1338 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1339 From: harry valentine Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1340 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1341 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1342 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1343 From: dave santos Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1345 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1346 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1347 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1348 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Our group search tool does not function yet.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1349 From: harry valentine Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Gyros with counter-rotating rotors

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1350 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Kytoon and cousins teach

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1351 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Kytoon and cousins teach

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1352 From: harry valentine Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Loop vs Winch transmission of power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1353 From: harry valentine Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Looped Cable windlass mechanisms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1354 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: Looped Cable windlass mechanisms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1355 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1356 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: UltraWing (TM), UltraPilot (TM), etc; Statement of Commerical Inten

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1357 From: Doug Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1358 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1359 From: Doug Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: powering the U.S. grid by electric cars on wind-driven rollers

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1360 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1361 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: powering the U.S. grid by Kite TGV Collectives (not cars)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1362 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Smart Grids & Kite Energy: a natural combination

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1363 From: harry valentine Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Smart Grids & Kite Energy: a natural combination

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1364 From: Carlo Perassi Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1365 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Kytoon and cousins teach

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1366 From: Doug Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: All Roads Lead to Superturbine(R): the Real Deal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1367 From: Doug Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Kite & spinning Superturbine(R) tether transmits torque to ground ge

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1368 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Japan kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1369 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1370 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1371 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1372 From: Doug Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Japan kiting




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1322 From: Carlo Perassi Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Hello,
after a few mails with JoeF and the KGR staff, I summarize here some notes:

1)
The construction site of the first not mobile prototype of KiteGen has
started yesterday (2010-03-15).

It is going to be build on the top of a hill in Berzano San Pietro
(Province of Asti - Piedmont - northern Italy) which is a very small
town... and we are talking about a KiteGen Stem, of course.

Lat/Lon: +45° 6' 36", +7° 56' 58"

http://maps.google.it/maps?q=45.110000,+7.949444&ie=UTF8&ll=45.109998,7.949424&spn=0.003358,0.006539&t=k&z=18

2)
KiteGen is one of the few Italian projects choose by the Italian
Government for the Shangai World Expo 2010.

A few links (in Italian, sorry).

http://video.palazzochigi.it/brunetta_20100310.asx
http://www.innovazionepa.gov.it/media/368070/innovatori_expo_shanghai.pdf
http://www.innovazionepa.gov.it/media/368074/l%27energia%20dell%27aquilone.pdf

--
Carlo Perassi - http://perassi.org/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1323 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: TU Delft Course +++ Kite Dynamics Symposium 2009

Jeroen notes on March 16, 2010, about the course links:

Hello Joe,
 
First off, I've been enjoying your website . great work!
 
The lecture slides you see on that website are two year old slides.  [[TU Delft Course ]]
We have revamped the kite course considerably to aim it more towards energy generation.
I still have to put the slides online.

I did put all the presentations of the Kite Dynamics Symposium 2009  online  http://www.vimeo.com/user2799915  
 
Kind regards,
 
Jeroen Breukels
 ---------------------------------------------------
Ir. J. Breukels
 
Faculty of Aerospace Engineering
ASSET (AeroSpace for Sustainable Engineering and Technology)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1324 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Electric Kite Vehicles
DaveS.
 
         Very very nice!
 
                               Dan'l
 

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:59:32 -0700
Subject: [AWECS] Electric Kite Vehicles

 
Its been noted that electric vehicles with regenerative braking (even a TGV) can be towed by kites to charge. There are many electric car models in or near production. The Prius electric side is rated at 60kw, a typical power rating. Here is yet another COTS opportunity. Set an electric car core on a track to be pulled in circles by a kite & you have a "village scale" power plant. The included battery allows baseload supply thru calm periods. The car may remain drivable for ultimate flexibility. Other modes have previously been discussed: Kite tow & charging cross-country; parked charging with wheels jacked up for kite input. All kite gear can fit in a suitcase.
 
KiteLab Ilwaco has a partner in Portland, OR, that designs & makes the Metroboard electric skateboard, which regeneratively brakes*. A small circular track inside of a tri-tether is planned to demo the fixed AWE concept using a stock Metroboard. The nomadic modes will be trialed along the splendid paved Lewis & Clark beach trail where Kitelab Ilwaco is located.**
 
 
coopip
 

* The Metroboard designer writes-

 

There are two ways to regenerate energy and charge the battery:

 

1)     Exceed the top speed of the motor (e.g, going downhill, where gravity pulls you faster than the motor can push you (around 16 mph).  Note that you will regenerate regardless of whether you are applying power to the motor (i.e., pressing one of the speed buttons on the remote).

2)     Press one of our brake buttons (which will result in slowing you down, but if your kite can pull hard enough to still maintain some speed), you will have a sustained charge.

 

Let me know!

 

Thanks,
ILAN

 
** I've kite landboarded & kite biked this amazing trail the last three years, as an experimental commute. Its like a mini Le Mans course in the dunes, free of trees or wires, full of curves & hillocks. The old page-
 




Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1325 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1326 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Electric Kite Vehicles

So,

instead of just parking millions of cars most of the day, get them on tracks being recharged via kite tug.

Let overcharged cars share kite-gained-charge with those cars that were not privileged to be on track.

Offload extra charge from the car to run home electrical loads.  Put extra charge into grid for sharing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV  

So much unused railroad railing!   Kite tug ready vehicles to recharge the cars.    

At seashore: make some fresh water; kite tow the water to inland need spots. De-power the kites and let
gravity return the kites on railed cart to the seashore while using regenerative braking at the kart in the return to charge some
batteries; at seashore: offload the gained charge to do work for the desalination  of the sea water.

Or just transport inland uphill people, goods, etc. during wind via kite tug.  During the next calm, let the railed train drop back to seashore while regneratively charging batteries or ultracapacitors; at seasure, offload charge for doing works at seashore region. 
Up-and-down airborne wind energy technology;
back-and-forth airborne wind energy technology.
Kite-tug those cars to inland uphill; use the cars; charges inland; let the cars drop to sea level while in such process they gain some charge.

Kite pull cars, goods, people, water, rocks, etc. from valley to top of mountains. Let the cars be charged during the tug up.  When dropping goods, people, cars, water, etc. from the mountaintops, let such be in karts that will be regeneratively charging; use the charge in the valley; share the charge excess.

Look Mom, no oil!

CoopIP where applicable                              JpF    for "Kite-charged electric vehicles"  (KCEVs)

 

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1327 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1328 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Summary description:
Grazie alla disponibilita di vento in alta quot ed attraverso il Kite Gen (R), sara possibile fornire, in ogni territorio, quantita di energia anche superiori a quelle di fonte fossile o nucleare attualmente utilizzate e cio senza grani stutture, senza creare pericoli per l'uomo, senza creare danni ambientali e ad un costo competitivo con quelli attuali di mercato. Per raggiungere il vento in quota e sfruttarne la maggiore energia cinetica, Kite Gen parte da un radicale cambio di prospettiva: non piu strutture pesanti e statiche come le attuali torri eoliche, ma invece macchine leggere, dinamiche e intelligenti. In aria, a sottrarre energia dal vento a una altezza di 800/1.000 metri, profili alari di potenza, ali semirigide ad alta efficienza pilotate automaticamente. Al suolo, tutti i macchinari pesanti per la generazione di energia. Ad unire i due sistemi, cavi in materiale composito che trasmettono la trazione e contemporaneamente controllano direzione e angolo al vento.

Thanks to the availability of wind at high altitudes and through the Kite Gen (R), you can provide, in each area, amount of power even greater than those of fossil or nuclear energy currently used and this without much Specimen layout, without creating hazards for 'man, without creating environmental damage and at a cost competitive with current market conditions. To reach the wind at high altitudes and exploit the greater kinetic energy, Kite Gen from a radical change of perspective: no more heavy structures and static as the current wind turbines, but instead light machinery, dynamic and intelligent. In the air, to steal energy from the wind to a height of 800/1000 meters, airfoils power, highly efficient wings semi automatic pilot. On the ground, all the heavy machinery for power generation. To merge the two systems, composite cables that transmit traction while controlling the direction and angle to the wind.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1329 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: High Speed Cableways in Tubes
OVERVIEW- We have seen estimates by KULueven & KiteLab Group that suggest cableway power transmission is competitive & even far superior to electrical conductors in the AWE application. The Steampunk Craze has revived a passion for quaint technology like pneumatic delivery tubes. Pneumatic tube trains have long been considered for long distance high speed travel. Sunken cableways still run cablecars in places like San Francisco. Peter Lynn moves slack kiteline in tubes with water flow. Which all leads to the following concept-
 
A high-speed cableway in a tube could be a practical power transmission method over considerable distances. Earthworm-like riblets along the moving cable would form ring-vortice air-bearings & "levitate" the cable for low friction travel, avoiding contact friction with the tube wall. This concept enables safe unobtrusive efficient cableway power transmission, especially underground, in congested or otherwise problematic settings. Speeds of several hundred miles an hour are possible. Mechanical AWE energy might be so conveyed, at even gigawatt scale, to drive existing utility-scale generators deep within existing powerplants, making them hybrids. JoeF's commuter car charging arrays might be so enbabled. UV degradation would be prevented. Copper & aluminum would be conserved.
 
A limitation of the concept would be turning tight corners, which would require corner-blocks.
 
COOPIP

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1330 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
***Doug S reply to Dave S: Last message you were concentrating on machines under 454 grams. That is "toy scale", which you were just lamenting and questioning the lack of interest in. We seem to both agree that small-scale machines can be used to prove a concept - sewing thread is your latest tether suggestion.

***Meanwhile I'm making 1 kW rotors that weigh about a lb each from select lumber. Wood has the same strength-to-weight ratio as carbon fiber in case you didn't know. It is a superior material for one-off prototypes and is considered the best material for at least small wind turbine blades, propellers, etc. Next time you're at a wind tunnel tell me what the fan blades are made of (wood). However, from a large-scale manufacturing standpoint, the cost-of-production and finish issues, raw material consistency issues, as well as possible moisture retention leading to imbalance, lean toward composites, since you can make a smooth mold and hire less-skilled fabricators, or use injection molding or otherwise automate the process.

***OK here's your answer: The rotors provide lift as well as torque, with each rotor lifting its own section of driveshaft. At such point as we have enough power to twist the driveshaft in half, we're making as much power as we need and that is as high as we need to go. Some of the carbon-fiber driveshafts we currently use are also used to improve performance in vehicles from formula-1 racing cars to garbage trucks, and can transmit 1000 horsepower at a low weight. Obviously both larger and smaller diameter driveshafts are possible to transmit any power level at any torque and RPM. I even heard of one guy who hung a hornet rotor from a kite at a mile height and used the tether rope as a driveshaft to a ground-based generator.
By definition if the driveshaft is failing, we have as much power as we need. If we can elevate it, and it can transmit the power, that's all it takes. Additionally, my patents cover weaving the driveshaft from a cylindrical mesh of Darrieus blades, so the driveshaft itself produces power. All my filament-wound driveshafts really are is your tethers, wound into a spiral. Think about it. My driveshafts are just your tethers used more appropriately to transmit the rotation you need, directly to the generator! They amount to your hypothetical "tethers that tow in a circle", optimized to tow in the circle of the best size at the best RPM to spin a generator.
Thanks for asking.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1331 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes
I have to say that even the level-headed Joe F. is starting to sound like the "pie-in-sky" folks in this particular message, with talk of people taking their cars to special tracks upon which they can be towed by kites to make electricity. Like if you had the budget for the track and kites, you couldn't provide it with its own generators, but would need to borrow peoples' cars(?). It doesn't seem like a workable solution to me.

"Hey let's go to the store!"
"Nah my car is up in Tehachapi making electricity - I had to pay some bills and the plant said they could use my car for a generator!"
mmm-hmmm...

Now running your parked electric / IC or fuel-cell car as a mini-peaker plant while parked is not such a ridiculous idea, if it is a plug-in model anyway, but taking it to a special track to be pulled by kites? Please be serious! Aren't we back to population centers being mostly in nonwindy areas again? And with houses, trees and buildings taking up the space where you would build the track?

And cables in enclosures - sure have at it! Maybe that is the future of energy transmission. As long as we're going down the road of sheer fantasy, why not pull out all the stops? Run your enclosure into the sky. Pull rather than rotate. Where have I heard that before... oh yeah 3000 years ago when the first bronze-age cave-man saw a leaf blown downwind... Are we still on topic here? I mean brainstorming is one thing.

And I DO like the general idea of using wind to move water uphill - could be something there. For one thing, creating a head (water height) allows desalination by R.O. as well as electricity production.

I WILL say this group is a definite brain tickler - it definitely gets you thinking! Hey let's talk about space elevators!

I have had this idea since I was a kid: a series of concentric spinning rings around the Earth, like Saturn's rings, each a circular loop of cable or train, going all the way around the Earth, each spinning in a toroidal enclosure, in a maglev configuration with the enclosure. The cables would spin faster than orbital speed for their height. The centrifugal force would be sufficient to lift both: each cable and its hollow-ring-enclosure against gravity. Then you connect the rings with a ladder (or powered elevator) and you have a stairway to heaven. Well whaddaya think?
:)
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1332 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Traction kiting :: garden of AWECS participants

Kitesurfers, flysurfers, kitesailors, foil makers, kitebuggy drivers,  paragliders, ...

are invited to direct part of their working kiting gear, knowledge, and skills

to energy-sharing objectives.  Some of the hundreds of thousands of

contemporary traction kiters and free-flight kiters (paragliders) may well join AWECS teams as workers,

operators, experiment teams, makers, repairers, pilots.

http://www.drachen.org/journals/journal06/6-EntireJournal.pdf

Join those kites to cranks, generators, saws, grinders, chargeable cars,

machines, pumps, ...     Invite the scores of kite manufacturers to open service

to the AWECS markets and targets.  Serving the energy market may multiply

their sales big time.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1333 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1334 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Doug,
 
KiteMotor1's turbine blades are just a fraction of  its 1lb weight. The stand-off spar, drive-shaft, variable pitch hub, capstan, fairleads, etc. are 3/4 of the mass. The 1.3m dia rotor is not toy scale, any more than an similar size AIR-X 400 is, as the tip speed is over 200mph in a fresh breeze. Let toy scale be defined as kiddie-safe. The Chinese "puddle jumper" rotor toy is toy scale. The sewing thread example was clearly stated as just an "illustration" only to help you understand how the power dynamics of a cable loop allow it to be held up by a reasonable lift force, which you doubted.
 
KiteLab Group cannot encourage any unsafe AWE fly-off such as you suggest, but instead intends to outcompete unsafe competitors in the marketplace on grounds of safety-critical insurability. One monster kite fatality (Eideken '83) on the beach where KiteLab Ilwaco is based is quite enough. Safety is proper engineering & operations (safety culture).
 
If you prefer not to compete directly with KiteMotor1, just do your "week-end project", a towerless kw rated AWE demo manifestly capable of tapping upper wind higher than ground turbines. No, a solid tubular driveshaft is not just a tether. You still have not answered in rough numbers how high you think a multi rotor driveshaft is practical & what you think it will weigh.
 
daveS
 
PS Please find us this curious AWE reference to add to our knowledge base-
 
"I even heard of one guy who hung a hornet rotor from a kite at a mile height and used the tether rope as a driveshaft to a ground-based generator. "
 


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com
***Doug S reply to Dave S: Last message you were concentrating on machines under 454 grams. That is "toy scale", which you were just lamenting and questioning the lack of interest in. We seem to both agree that small-scale machines can be used to prove a concept - sewing thread is your latest tether suggestion.

***Meanwhile I'm making 1 kW rotors that weigh about a lb each from select lumber. Wood has the same strength-to- weight ratio as carbon fiber in case you didn't know. It is a superior material for one-off prototypes and is considered the best material for at least small wind turbine blades, propellers, etc. Next time you're at a wind tunnel tell me what the fan blades are made of (wood). However, from a large-scale manufacturing standpoint, the cost-of-production and finish issues, raw material consistency issues, as well as possible moisture retention leading to imbalance, lean toward composites, since you can make a smooth mold and hire less-skilled fabricators, or use injection molding or otherwise automate the process.

***OK here's your answer: The rotors provide lift as well as torque, with each rotor lifting its own section of driveshaft. At such point as we have enough power to twist the driveshaft in half, we're making as much power as we need and that is as high as we need to go. Some of the carbon-fiber driveshafts we currently use are also used to improve performance in vehicles from formula-1 racing cars to garbage trucks, and can transmit 1000 horsepower at a low weight. Obviously both larger and smaller diameter driveshafts are possible to transmit any power level at any torque and RPM. I even heard of one guy who hung a hornet rotor from a kite at a mile height and used the tether rope as a driveshaft to a ground-based generator.
By definition if the driveshaft is failing, we have as much power as we need. If we can elevate it, and it can transmit the power, that's all it takes. Additionally, my patents cover weaving the driveshaft from a cylindrical mesh of Darrieus blades, so the driveshaft itself produces power. All my filament-wound driveshafts really are is your tethers, wound into a spiral. Think about it. My driveshafts are just your tethers used more appropriately to transmit the rotation you need, directly to the generator! They amount to your hypothetical "tethers that tow in a circle", optimized to tow in the circle of the best size at the best RPM to spin a generator.
Thanks for asking.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk!

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1335 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes
Doug,
 
JoeF's idea of an electric car, as a mobile power plant that can freelance around, seems far more doable that a cheap, safe, reliable driveshaft to upper winds. A flexible car train may have a future, but the car need not run on a track, a roller driveshaft under the parking spot would do.
 
How about TGV generators that migrate with the Jet Stream?
 
daveS


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

I have to say that even the level-headed Joe F. is starting to sound like the "pie-in-sky" folks in this particular message, with talk of people taking their cars to special tracks upon which they can be towed by kites to make electricity. Like if you had the budget for the track and kites, you couldn't provide it with its own generators, but would need to borrow peoples' cars(?). It doesn't seem like a workable solution to me.

"Hey let's go to the store!"
"Nah my car is up in Tehachapi making electricity - I had to pay some bills and the plant said they could use my car for a generator!"
mmm-hmmm...

Now running your parked electric / IC or fuel-cell car as a mini-peaker plant while parked is not such a ridiculous idea, if it is a plug-in model anyway, but taking it to a special track to be pulled by kites? Please be serious! Aren't we back to population centers being mostly in nonwindy areas again? And with houses, trees and buildings taking up the space where you would build the track?

And cables in enclosures - sure have at it! Maybe that is the future of energy transmission. As long as we're going down the road of sheer fantasy, why not pull out all the stops? Run your enclosure into the sky. Pull rather than rotate. Where have I heard that before... oh yeah 3000 years ago when the first bronze-age cave-man saw a leaf blown downwind... Are we still on topic here? I mean brainstorming is one thing.

And I DO like the general idea of using wind to move water uphill - could be something there. For one thing, creating a head (water height) allows desalination by R.O. as well as electricity production.

I WILL say this group is a definite brain tickler - it definitely gets you thinking! Hey let's talk about space elevators!

I have had this idea since I was a kid: a series of concentric spinning rings around the Earth, like Saturn's rings, each a circular loop of cable or train, going all the way around the Earth, each spinning in a toroidal enclosure, in a maglev configuration with the enclosure. The cables would spin faster than orbital speed for their height. The centrifugal force would be sufficient to lift both: each cable and its hollow-ring- enclosure against gravity. Then you connect the rings with a ladder (or powered elevator) and you have a stairway to heaven. Well whaddaya think?
:)
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1336 From: Doug Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Dave S.:
OK Kitemotor is not a toy - fine. Wind energy people DO consider the "Air" serise of turbines a "toy" and yes blades can cut you: I have 15 stitches to prove it, from a self-produced wood rotor blade that weighed a few ounces.
What I am trying to tell you as you migrate from using an exclusively "pull" force of your tethers, to citing a rotational force: I arrange the tethers in a tight spiral or helical configuration and bond them together to form a cylinder, which you refer to as a "torque tube". Fine and good, but it is much more than a torque tube. There are other aspects I will not discuss here, but it takes your tether transmits the tangential forces of the blades to the ground, without pulling the assembly down from the skly since the downward pull component of the rotational force is counteracted by the compressibility of the tube, so you have that in addition to the thrust force to counteract any downward pull.
So my configuration is not a space elevator trying as hard as it possibly can to go "down" like yours.

As I said, you put up enough driveshaft (with stacked rotors)to the point that your driveshaft strength is challenged, at which point you are making rated power, and what height that reaches is academic - are you interested in making power or setting an academic height record? If you;re making full power, that;s high enough. How high that could be is probably many times higher than a naysayer like you would imagine anyway, but... It is the amount of power you can take to the ground that counts, not exactly how high you can take the power from. Superturbine(R) allows any diameter turbine to make more power at a lower height by combining the ppower of many rotors, which is why we have operating turbines at a 14-0foot hub height which is unheard of even in the groundhugging wind world.
A superior technology is superior at any height.

I'd say why don't you mathematically prove that my concept is NOT viable, since you are the one issuing the challenge, but I don't think you understand it well enough to do any such calculations.
Please, show me why each rotor cannot lift its own section of driveshaft? Let alone if we used blimps, which I hope will be unnecessary since rotors can fly.

You mentioned COTS - meaning "off-the-shelf" - my shizzle uses all COTS components, and well I guess so does yours, whatever yours is this week. I guess that is one of my points: Every component of your proposed designs can be bought off the shelf NOW from the propellers to the spools to the kites to the generator - so what are you waiting for?

Well all I can say is this whole discussion is geting a bit silly. OK you are the king. You have all the answers. Anything I say or propose is wrong. I have to say I have never debated anyone on any topic with the fixation you have for dissecting every comment I make and trying to negate it, which you are unsuccessful at by the way.

The fact is that I am about 30 years ahead of you on all this and you are simply musing through configurations that I ruled out as a teenager in the 1970's. Where can I buy one of your superior machines?

Compete directly with Kitemotor? OK I hate to say once again "give me a link" cause we now know that is beyond your capabilities, or beneath you in some way, but if you could provide exactly what it is that kitemotor does that I need to exceed, I will try and see if I can comply with that challenge. Ummm - a video showing power output on meters? Ohh sorry I know you hate it when I ask for that...

I have lots of machines running all around the world, making power at this very moment. Where is your running machine? Where can I buy one? Also it sounds like you are backing out of any sort of flyoff citing the usual (safety and rules) excuses.(?) Do I have that right? I know: Let's schedule a flying turbine deployment right next to an airport without asking permission (like in November 2009)!

Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1337 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Doug,
 
Thanks for tolerating my questions. This thread is no attack on you, but a consideration of loop transmission v. any other option, including driveshafts.
 
What i did to comparatively assess the driveshaft concept was to review the whole span of human engineering for some application example of a comparable driveshaft/torque-tube that could plausibly reach the upper wind resource as your promotional info depicts. I found nothing close, but maybe you can point to an existence proof of this sort. On the other hand many historic cable-loops have been usefully run for thousands of feet.
 
There are many FEA engineering tools to model a driveshaft's dynamics, but its more your job to use them. I've tried long torque tubes & know the empiric failure limits. What if the generator shorts? Does the tube absorb that shock with a slip-clutch? Sure you can tension tubes to make them more robust, but at great cost in LTA or kite, on top of the weight-lift requirement.
 
Remember KiteMotor1 was an initial baseline experiment, not a favored idea, but it did prove the down-space-elevator fear ungrounded as the many observers can attest. You do need to regulate the mechanical load, but that is normal. Stall it & it does crank itself down, but this is a great feature, not a bug. Once again, the KiteMotor link is-
 
 
Good luck with your kw AWE demo, sincerely,
 
daveS


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

Dave S.:
OK Kitemotor is not a toy - fine. Wind energy people DO consider the "Air" serise of turbines a "toy" and yes blades can cut you: I have 15 stitches to prove it, from a self-produced wood rotor blade that weighed a few ounces.
What I am trying to tell you as you migrate from using an exclusively "pull" force of your tethers, to citing a rotational force: I arrange the tethers in a tight spiral or helical configuration and bond them together to form a cylinder, which you refer to as a "torque tube". Fine and good, but it is much more than a torque tube. There are other aspects I will not discuss here, but it takes your tether transmits the tangential forces of the blades to the ground, without pulling the assembly down from the skly since the downward pull component of the rotational force is counteracted by the compressibility of the tube, so you have that in addition to the thrust force to counteract any downward pull.
So my configuration is not a space elevator trying as hard as it possibly can to go "down" like yours.

As I said, you put up enough driveshaft (with stacked rotors)to the point that your driveshaft strength is challenged, at which point you are making rated power, and what height that reaches is academic - are you interested in making power or setting an academic height record? If you;re making full power, that;s high enough. How high that could be is probably many times higher than a naysayer like you would imagine anyway, but... It is the amount of power you can take to the ground that counts, not exactly how high you can take the power from. Superturbine( R) allows any diameter turbine to make more power at a lower height by combining the ppower of many rotors, which is why we have operating turbines at a 14-0foot hub height which is unheard of even in the groundhugging wind world.
A superior technology is superior at any height.

I'd say why don't you mathematically prove that my concept is NOT viable, since you are the one issuing the challenge, but I don't think you understand it well enough to do any such calculations.
Please, show me why each rotor cannot lift its own section of driveshaft? Let alone if we used blimps, which I hope will be unnecessary since rotors can fly.

You mentioned COTS - meaning "off-the-shelf" - my shizzle uses all COTS components, and well I guess so does yours, whatever yours is this week. I guess that is one of my points: Every component of your proposed designs can be bought off the shelf NOW from the propellers to the spools to the kites to the generator - so what are you waiting for?

Well all I can say is this whole discussion is geting a bit silly. OK you are the king. You have all the answers. Anything I say or propose is wrong. I have to say I have never debated anyone on any topic with the fixation you have for dissecting every comment I make and trying to negate it, which you are unsuccessful at by the way.

The fact is that I am about 30 years ahead of you on all this and you are simply musing through configurations that I ruled out as a teenager in the 1970's. Where can I buy one of your superior machines?

Compete directly with Kitemotor? OK I hate to say once again "give me a link" cause we now know that is beyond your capabilities, or beneath you in some way, but if you could provide exactly what it is that kitemotor does that I need to exceed, I will try and see if I can comply with that challenge. Ummm - a video showing power output on meters? Ohh sorry I know you hate it when I ask for that...

I have lots of machines running all around the world, making power at this very moment. Where is your running machine? Where can I buy one? Also it sounds like you are backing out of any sort of flyoff citing the usual (safety and rules) excuses.(?) Do I have that right? I know: Let's schedule a flying turbine deployment right next to an airport without asking permission (like in November 2009)!

Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1338 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Twist Method: TTQ

This thread

is twisting on

 http://www.energykitesystems.net/TwistMethod/index.html

Welcome to the TTQ party.

CoopIP                                                      JpF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1339 From: harry valentine Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Loop transmission of mechanical energy
Loop transmission of mechanical energy can be applied to terrain enabled and terrain enhanced wind power technologies to connect wind power to a water pump, to pump water into storage at higher elevation.
 
Several VAWT's can be connected via a horizontally loop transmission to allow them to drive a single large alternator or single large water pump.
 
Power levels and longevity of the loop transmission will be critical.
 
 
Harry
 

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1340 From: dave santos Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ
While twisting line is one way to transmit energy, there are clear practical limitations. Hockles, kinks, loops, & bird cages are common partial failure modes. Samson Rope, a technology leader in Dyneema ship hawsers, asserts on its website that "high twist levels adversely affect the residual strength & should be avoided". Twisting line concentrates stress on a just a few fibers, which fail progressively. Then there is the fact that twisted line pulls with great mechanical advantage, the basis for a "Spanish windlass", so an AWE kite or aerostat must pull against very powerful downforce or the line promptly supercoils into a twisted wad. These problems can be somewhat mitigated by thicker heavier line but this severely limits scaling potential compared to simply pulling or pumping a thinner less abused line.
 
Still, for a small novelty AWE demo, a kite tether based on a "rubber-band motor" or the Thessalian witch's jynx (spinning disk string toy) will do fun micropower. An advantage is high rpm.
 
There are old posts touching on this topic.


From: Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com

This thread

is twisting on

 http://www.energyki tesystems. net/TwistMethod/ index.html

Welcome to the TTQ party.

CoopIP                                                      JpF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1341 From: Bob Stuart Date: 3/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ
I pulled together some numbers for the weight of loop transmission vs electric conductors, and the loop looks like a clear winner.  If somebody wants to have a particular tether material or voltage compared, let me know, or I'll go with 400V and 1,000' of transmission, with solid aluminum conductors, vs Spectra line. 

Regarding the option of a straight pull vs a drive shaft, I'd like to see the figures for Doug's favourite shafting, which we can take as optimized for this year.  On an old HPV I did the numbers for, even chain drive was six times lighter than shaft drive, but I had different constraints.   Still, J.E. Gordon points out that Nature almost always manages to avoid any serious need to resist torques, which is why ski bindings are so tricky.  Drawing some rough analogies, we can compare a simple driveshaft to a loop fairly easily, I think. 

As Doug points out, the loop system wants to reel itself in, but this is easily solved by always leaving some tension on the return run.  AWE always requires some vertical tension, and it is of great benefit to either mechanical transmission system.  On the loop scheme, one just uses large enough pulleys at high enough speeds to get the ft per min up and the lbs down to a safe figure for the HP expected. 

A simple case of a driveshaft might take those same two tethers, and make them into a ladder with rigid struts to space them apart.  Then, after launch, they could be twisted by the turbine.  If the vertical tension and turbine RPM were adjusted nicely, you'd get a DNA-like double  helix at 45 deg.  If the working diameters and speeds were the same, the "shaft" would have the advantage of having two working members instead of one side of the loop.  Against that, it would loose 29% to the angle vector, the same amount of length, and the weight of the separator struts.  It would also experience far more wind resistance due to its own motion, but that would be partly cured by a full-round construction.  If its diameter were reduced, and speed increased, it might tend to require great rigidity to avoid whipping.  Perhaps some damper rings would act as center-steady bearings in the sky?  I'd be happy to compare numbers for the best hardware folks want to specify, from the shelf or not.

Bob Stuart

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1342 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ
Joe,
 
      I am glad your bringing this subject to the front, I believe this is perhaps the only practicle way to go forward of AWE, genny on the earth. I know the flex shaft, torsion shaft, is a underdeveloped field and will progress. Looking forward.
 
                                                                                     Dan'l

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:07:12 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Twist Method: TTQ

 

This thread
is twisting on
 http://www.energyki tesystems. net/TwistMethod/ index.html
Welcome to the TTQ party.
CoopIP                                                      JpF



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1343 From: dave santos Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School)
PRESS RELEASE/// Please Forward/// First Call For Kite Pilot Trainees
 
Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) is a hot new field in alternative energy. FAA rules for small Unmanned Aircraft Systems (sUAS) define AWE's USA regulatory framework. Early compliance helps predict commercialization prospects for competing AWE technologies. A new aviation profession of AWE Kite Pilot has emerged.
 
KiteLab Group is now registering students for its experimental Cat 1 sUAS AWE Training Course (Kite Pilot School). This is combined Cat 1 PIC (Pilot In Control) & (VO) Visual Observer Training. Completion qualifies for follow-on training for a KiteLab Group Cat 1 Instructor Rating. CAT 2 sUAS AWE category certification training will be offered as FAA requirements are finalized & met.
 
This training is rigorous college-level study with hands-on practice. Mastery of pertinent aeronautical & AWE application knowledge is required. Structured flying hours with varied systems & conditions are assigned. Most coursework can be completed as distance learning. Flexible access to specialized sUAS AWE equipment with instruction is available in Ilwaco, WA, a scenic world-class kiting location.
 
Prior experience in these areas earns partial credit- Piloting (including ultralight, hang glider, skydiving, & paraglider), Kite Mastery, Model Aviation Expertise, UAV Operations, & Membership (in good standing) in an FAA accepted enitity like the American Kiteflier's Association (AKA) or Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). Membership in the Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA) required. Students must be 14 or older.
 
Course is self-paced with supervision. Cat 1 Base Tuition is $500US. Field Instruction & Flight Testing is $20hr (average 10hrs). Economy food & lodging available. Volunteer work, group registration, or hardship qualifies for free or discounted training.
 
================================
 
Contact: Dave Santos, santos137@yahoo.com
 
Link:
 
Emerging FAA sUAS Rules
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1345 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ
Sorry,
      The paravane flexible driveshaft by DaveS, perhaps you too, and the aerial SuperTurbine have driven groundGen from flexible driveshaft from spinners at dynamic end; these have historical record; there are more paravane examples also.       
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1346 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School)
DaveS,
 
          Very Kewl!
 
                            Dan'l
 

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:32:18 -0700
Subject: [AWECS] Cat I & 2 sUAS AWE Training (Kite Pilot School)

 
PRESS RELEASE/// Please Forward/// First Call For Kite Pilot Trainees
 
Airborne Wind Energy (AWE) is a hot new field in alternative energy. FAA rules for small Unmanned Aircraft Systems (sUAS) define AWE's USA regulatory framework. Early compliance helps predict commercialization prospects for competing AWE technologies. A new aviation profession of AWE Kite Pilot has emerged.
 
KiteLab Group is now registering students for its experimental Cat 1 sUAS AWE Training Course (Kite Pilot School). This is combined Cat 1 PIC (Pilot In Control) & (VO) Visual Observer Training. Completion qualifies for follow-on training for a KiteLab Group Cat 1 Instructor Rating. CAT 2 sUAS AWE category certification training will be offered as FAA requirements are finalized & met.
 
This training is rigorous college-level study with hands-on practice. Mastery of pertinent aeronautical & AWE application knowledge is required. Structured flying hours with varied systems & conditions are assigned. Most coursework can be completed as distance learning. Flexible access to specialized sUAS AWE equipment with instruction is available in Ilwaco, WA, a scenic world-class kiting location.
 
Prior experience in these areas earns partial credit- Piloting (including ultralight, hang glider, skydiving, & paraglider), Kite Mastery, Model Aviation Expertise, UAV Operations, & Membership (in good standing) in an FAA accepted enitity like the American Kiteflier's Association (AKA) or Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). Membership in the Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA) required. Students must be 14 or older.
 
Course is self-paced with supervision. Cat 1 Base Tuition is $500US. Field Instruction & Flight Testing is $20hr (average 10hrs). Economy food & lodging available. Volunteer work, group registration, or hardship qualifies for free or discounted training.
 
============ ========= ========= ==
 
Contact: Dave Santos, santos137@yahoo. com
 
Link:
 
Emerging FAA sUAS Rules
 
 




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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1347 From: Dan Parker Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twist Method: TTQ
Joe,
 
      While I applaud the micro independent individual set up, I do envision larger applications. The time is nigh, the weather is breaking and the fun begins, I do hope a breakthrough on the tether front. Some inside the box, some outside the circle and others off planet thinking will help us there. Can you make a numeric list of what's available in the young art of tethers, then maybe we can explore each from there. DaveS. all ears hears.
 
                                                                                             Dan'l
 
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:34:09 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWECS] Twist Method: TTQ

 
Dan,
     There are several families of driveshaft in the picture, so far. The several separated line complex, the flying open-mesh shaft, the traditional hard and tight flexible drive shaft, and the DNA mimic.    You are welcome to prepare notes that can be with linked text; such notes will go on the page being developed; the page will be being spidered by Google. 
 
Can you see a SAF segment lofted to 50 m  and driving a flexible drive shaft tether while a lifter kite or aerostat kytoon keeps things taut?      I have no record of anyone driving a groundGen with rotating tether, but it may have been done.  
 
It would be neat to have a historical first in this realm, even if the realm may not be utilityAWE dominating.
 
Lift,
Joe



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1348 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Our group search tool does not function yet.
Yahoo! groups search function does not work on very many of its groups. Yahoo! has a program that supposedly is gradually adding more and more groups into the desired search capability; they reveal no promise for AirborneWindEnergy. So, using the shown tool brings no results.

WORKAROUND:
In the Google search field type carefully in lowercase just as shown here where no space occurs after the colon; and be sure to put a space after the forward slant before putting in the word that you seek in our group. Here I illustrate with the word
tether

site:tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/ tether

Notice that the site part leaves off http://
Try it for various words and phrases.

Found offers by Google lead to links over which a second page search for term may be needed; and the page will be searchable differently for how you have chosen the group messages to show: summaries, expanded, or titles only.

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1349 From: harry valentine Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Gyros with counter-rotating rotors

 The gyro with the counter-rotating rotors is an interesting concept . . . there is a tail-less helicopter known as a "Manx" that uses concentric counter-rotating rotors . . . like the radio controlled toy.
 
Piasecki built a helicopter with inter-meshing, counter-rotating rotors . . . that concept allow for gigantic rotors and it also allows for each drive-shaft to drive a flexible torque-tube or twist-drive mechanism that could carry power to ground-level alternators.
 
Harry
 
 
Recent Activity:
.



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1350 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Kytoon and cousins teach
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1351 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Re: Kytoon and cousins teach
DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER
805 KIDDER BREESE SE -- WASHINGTON NAVY YARD
WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060

Image of cover.

Image of cover.

[formerly] CONFIDENTIAL
[Declassified 17 Aug 72]

O. N. I. Publication No. 46

KITE BALLOONS
IN ESCORTS

NAVY DEPARTMENT
OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE

NOVEMBER 1918



WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1918




[formerly] CONFIDENTIAL [Declassified 17 Aug 72]

OFFICE OF NAVAL INTELLIGENCE
Washington, November 1, 1918.


Upon the recommendation of Operations-Aviation this study of the use of kite balloons in escorts, made by the planning section, is published for the information of the naval service. This pamphlet is confidential and for the use of commissioned officers only.

ROGER WELLES
Rear Admiral, U. S. Navy,
Director of Naval Intelligence





KITE BALLOONS IN ESCORTS.


PLANNING SECTION-MEMORANDUM.

PROBLEM.

Kite balloons being available for use with escort vessels, the following questions arise:
1. Should kite balloons be used by vessels escorting convoys?
2. If escort vessels use kite balloons, what are the principles governing their use?

In considering these questions all available publications and reports have been carefully studied and freely used in the notes that follow.

The following information is pertinent:
(1) In July, 1917, experiments were carried out with a kite balloon by a destroyer. It was found that a kite balloon could trace the submarine after her movement could no longer be seen from the bridge; but it is doubtful if a kite balloon observer can follow a submarine that seeks to escape by diving more than a minute longer than the same submarine could be followed from the bridge. When the submarine is leaking oil the kite balloon is more useful in the chase than at any other time.

(2) In July, 1917, the Grand Fleet Destroyers made an experimental hunt for submarines. The submarine was discovered on the surface 8 miles away. Later, two periscopes were discovered, distance not stated.

(3) Later two other submarines were discovered in the same hunt by the kite balloons, distance not stated. No result of the contact, except that the submarine remained submerged during daylight.

(4) On July 12, 1917, H. M. S. Patriot sighted a submarine on the surface at a distance of 28 miles. The submarine submerged when kite balloon was distanced 6 miles. Submarine came up when kite balloon was 4 miles away and immediately submerged. Patriot was directed to the spot by the kite balloon and an attack was made; submarine was probably destroyed.

(5) On May 27, 1918, a convoy was attacked while escorted by a kite balloon. The attack was delivered five minutes after the balloon was hauled down to change observers. This was the first instance on record of an attack on the convoy while being escorted by a kite balloon. A second convoy was attacked on September 3, 1918, when escorted by a kite balloon; one vessel was sunk.

The British believe that enemy submarines feel that they incur no great danger while being sighted from kite balloons at a distance. British publications give the visibility of kite balloons in clear weather at about 20 miles. Visibility varies with light, background, color of balloon, relative positions of balloon and observing vessel.

(6) It is known, of course, that even when convoys are not accompanied by kite balloons, submarines as a rule sight convoys before they themselves are sighted.

-3-



(7) At twilight in clear weather a kite balloon becomes increasingly visible from all bearings, and remains so until it is quite dark. Under these conditions it is probable that a submarine can come to the surface at some distance from the kite balloon and follow it without fear of detection.

(8) Observations from kite balloons are much less efficient when wind is blowing.

(9) When there are white caps on the water the chances of seeing a periscope from a balloon are small.

(10) Recent records covering British operations indicate that a kite balloon has to cruise over 30,000 miles to sight a submarine. The conclusion is, of course, that as a rule--
1. The submarine sees the kite balloon first.
2. The submarine submerges very soon after the kite balloon is sighted.

Considering now the questions to be decided, viz.:
1. Should kite balloons be used by vessels escorting convoys?
2. If escort vessels use kite balloons, what are the principles governing their use?

It is evident that the answer to question (1) depends in part upon the answer to question (2), so we shall investigate the principles governing the use of kite balloons first.

The kite balloon has but one direct use and that is to get information; it has but one drawback that need be considered here, and that is that it gives information to the enemy. The real problem for the kite balloon therefore is to get as much useful information as possible, and to give as little useful information as possible to enemy vessels.

The indirect use of a kite balloon is measured by its effect on enemy submarines. They nearly always submerge in time to avoid being seen from the balloon while they are still on the surface, and thereby voluntarily limit their maneuvering power.

There are two ways of using kite balloons:
(1) In close escort positions. Here the kite balloon vessel zig-zags close to the convoy.
(2) In extended patrol positions. Here the kite balloons are at visibility distance from the convoy in thick weather and at about 12 miles from the convoy in clear weather.

The functions of the kite balloon in close escort positions-where it usually zigzags across the front of the convoys are-
(1) To sight any submarine which through a bad lookout or through taking chances, stays on the surface with the kite balloon in sight.
(2) To sight submarines that attempt to attack in time to give warning and to direct a counter attack.
(3) To warn convoy of browning shots.
(4) To limit the submarine[`]s maneuvering area on the surface so that if the submarine be in the rear of the convoy it will have to make a very wide detour to get ahead of the convoy in position for attack, undiscovered.
(5) To prevent trailing of convoy by dropping astern of convoy just before dark.
(6) To keep submarines submerged after an attack.

-4-



The close escort position is the one that gives the maximum information to the enemy submarine. It makes a conspicuous marker of the convoy's position and thereby enables the submarine to communicate the convoy's position and movements to submarines better placed for attack. It is also quite possible for the sighting submarine itself to gain a position for attack by a wide detour.

The principal advantages of the close escort position are:
(1) Readiness for counter attack.
Comment.--Unless the submarine is leaking oil the kite balloon will probably not guide the attacking vessel more efficiently than it could be guided from the bridge for more than one additional minute--once the attack is delivered.

(2) Protection against browning shots through warnings.
Comment.-Taking into consideration: (a) That the kite balloon has not over two observers.
(b) That the browning shot torpedo will not be in flight more than three minutes, and more often two minutes.
(c) That an appreciable interval is required to give the warning.
(d) That the warning can not tell each vessel the relative bearing of the torpedo.

We conclude that the extra protection given by kite balloons against browning shots is about one minute's earlier notice of danger to the convoy.

(3) Bluffing the submarine.
Comment.--Recent evidence indicates that this element may soon be negligible.

From the above in conjunction with the operating experiences of kite balloons in the presence of submarines we conclude:
That it is not profitable to use kite balloons in close escort positions except in waters where convoy routes are well known-and during weather when visibility is very limited.

The extended patrol for escort of convoys is discussed in various publications. Attention is invited particularly to O. N. I. No. 29 of February, 1918.

The functions of the kite balloon in extended patrol positions are similar to those in close escort positions.

Every convoy carries with it an area within which a submarine may maneuver submerged into position for attack on the convoy. The width of the area is twice the visibility of the convoy from the submarine's periscope--about 14 miles in clear weather plus the length of the convoy front. The area extends an indefinite distance ahead of the convoy.

The afterside of the area is bounded by an irregular line dependent on the formation and speed of the convoy, the speed and radius of the submarine when submerged, and the range of the submarine torpedoes.

This area is called the "diving danger area."

A similar area known as the "surface danger area" includes and extends beyond the "diving danger area" on the flanks and rear by an amount equal to the difference in visibility of the convoy from a submarine submerged and from a submarine on the surface. In clear

-5-



weather the "surface danger area" may be taken to be 22 miles in width.

The flank boundaries of both the "diving danger area" and the "surface danger area" are determined by visibility from the submarine, because the presumption is that the submarine can not maneuver for attack when it can not see. The development of listening apparatus may in the near future extend the "diving danger area" by the flanks--to twice the listening radius rather than to twice the visibility--provided the submerged radius of the submarine keeps pace with the listening radius.

Extended patrol vessels are vessels stationed at visibility distance from a convoy with the object—

(a) Of limiting the submarine's freedom of action on the surface and of preventing the submarines from sighting the convoy.

(b) Of sighting any submarine that does not dive immediately upon sighting the patrol vessel.

If the patrol vessel carries a kite balloon the principles of extended patrol are not thereby altered.

If the patrol vessels are stationed inside the "diving danger area" they may sight a submarine but the submarine may still be able to maneuver submerged so as to attack. If, however, the extended patrol vessels are stationed outside the "diving danger area" and in such position as to sight any submarine in or near that part of the "surface danger area" not common to the "diving danger area," any submarine there sighted will have to dive, and by diving will lose all chance of successful attack on the convoy, since it will have dived without sighting the convoy and without knowledge of its whereabouts.

When the convoy is escorted by antisubmarine vessels it is reasonably safe to assume--for all except the slowest convoys--that no submarine will be able to maneuver submerged successfully for attack if it first sights the convoy when the convoy already has the submarine abaft the beam.

In stationing extended escort vessels care should be taken that the range of vision astern is such that no submarine can reach the "diving danger area" on the surface without being observed either by the extended patrol or the close escort.

The following table gives the bearing in points from right ahead on which the extended escorts should be from the convoy guide:

Speed of convoy.
Visibility .

4 miles
6 miles
8 miles
10 or more miles
7 knots
7
6
5
4.5
9 knots
5
5
4.5
--
11 knots
4
4
3.5
3.5
13 knots
4
3.5
3.5
3



The extended patrol vessel with kite balloon, must keep convoy in sight--closing in for this purpose as weather thickens. In clear weather kite balloon may be about 12 miles from convoy.

-6-



POSITION OF KITE BALLOON VESSELS.

(1) In very clear weather--
(a) With two kite balloons.--One on each bow, in extended escort, positions given above, to make wide zigzags outward from extended escort positions.
(b) With but one kite balloon.--On one bow, in extended escort position crossing occasionally to the other bow and never lingering ahead of the convoy.

(2) With moderate and with low visibility-that is, when kite balloon will not be seen farther than convoy is seen--
(a) With two kite balloons.--One in each of the close escort positions, zigzagging so as to cover the front of the convoy and the wing columns.
(b) With but one kite balloon.--At close escort distance, ahead of convoy and covering the whole front with zigzags.

With regard to the above designated positions, when there is but one kite balloon it should as a rule be stationed:
(a) To windward of the convoy.
(b) On the sunny side of the convoy.
(c) On the side nearest the moon.
(d) On the opposite side to the rising sun at dawn moving around to other side at sunrise. (a), (b), and (c), to be at such distance from the convoy that the submarine must dive before sighting the convoy and be unable to come to the surface between the balloon and the convoy without being seen.

At twilight kite balloons should drop back by the flanks as the light fails, to positions on the quarters of the convoy, keeping as far away as possible without losing touch and not closing up until quite dark. If convoy alters course after dark, kite balloon should stand off on a different course and not rejoin until quite dark, then take close escort positions.

If in sight of land, or if the area ahead of the convoy is being patrolled, kite balloons should be stationed in the close escort position in all visibilities.

Extended patrol should not be used until the minimum requirements of close escort have been met.
Considering now the use of the kite balloon in extended escort positions we find--
(1) That it does not betray the presence of a convoy and therefore gives practically no useful information to the enemy.
Comment.-A submarine seeing a kite balloon can make one positive deduction and several tentative deductions.
Positive deduction.--That a surface vessel is towing a kite balloon in a certain general direction which the submarine can determine.
Tentative deductions--
(a) That a convoy may be near the kite balloon and that it is more apt to be astern of the kite balloon than ahead of it.
(b) That the kite balloon is near antisubmarine vessels--whether a convoy is near by or not--since kite balloons are used in hunting as well as in escort operations.
(c) That the surest way to approach the convoy if there is one near by, is to approach the kite balloon--if possible getting ahead of the kite balloon.

-7-



TThe submarine can make these same deductions if it sights a single vessel of war; so that practically the only information which the kite balloon gives to the submarine is earlier information of the presence of a vessel in a given direction, and correspondingly early information of the general course of that vessel. This earlier information is measured by the relation of the two circles of visibility (1) of the vessel, (2) of the kite balloon. The atmospheric conditions modify very greatly the relation of these circles of visibility. In clear weather the kite balloon would probably be sighted twice as far as the vessel. In thick weather the vessel itself might be sighted first.
(2) That the submarine sighting the balloon will very likely be attracted by it even to the extent of voluntarily leaving the "diving danger area."
(3) That all submarines outside the "diving danger area" will be prevented from entering that area except by chance.
(4) That the trailing of convoys will be prevented.
(5) Any submarine sighted can be kept submerged until convoy has passed or until dark.

We conclude--
That it is profitable to use kite balloons in extended escort positions in accordance with the principles already explained.

The practicability of using kite balloons in bad weather or on long voyages has not been considered. We assume that decision in each instance as to whether or not to take balloons in tow will be based upon operating experience to date and a forecast of conditions likely to be encountered.

SUMMARY.

As to question (1), it is not profitable to use kite balloons in close escort positions except--
(1) In waters where convoy routes are well known.
(2) During weather when visibility is very limited.

It is profitable to use kite balloons in extended escort positions in accordance with the principles already explained, viz--
(1) On the bearings given in the table at the bottom of page 8.
(2) At visibility distance from the convoy, except that in clear weather this distance shall not exceed 12 miles.
(3) In very clear weather--
(a) With two kite balloons.--One on each bow, in extended escort positions given above, to make wide zigzag southward from extended escort positions.
(b) With but one kite balloon.--On one bow in extended escort position crossing occasionally to the other bow and never lingering ahead of the convoy.
(3) [sic] With moderate and with low visibility--that is, when kite balloon will not be seen farther than convoy is seen--
(a) With two kite balloons.--One in each of the close escort positions, zigzagging so as to cover the front of the convoy and the wing columns.
(b) With but one kite balloon.--At close escort distance, ahead of convoy and covering the whole front with zigzags.

-8-



(4) When there is but one kite balloon with a convoy, it should as a rule be stationed:
(1) To windward of the convoy.
(2) On the sunny side of the convoy.
(3) On the side nearest the moon.
(4) On the opposite side to the rising sun at dawn moving around to other side at sunrise. (1), (2), and (3), to be at such distance from the convoy that the submarine must dive before sighting the convoy and be unable to come to the surface between the balloon and the convoy without being seen.

(5) At twilight kite balloons should drop back by the flanks as the light fails to positions on the quarters of the convoy, keeping as far away as possible from the convoy without losing sight of it and not closing up until quite dark. If during this time convoy alters course after dark, kite balloons should stand off on a different course and not rejoin until quite dark, then take close escort positions.

(6) If in sight of land, or if the area ahead of the convoy is being patrolled to the limit of visibility of the kite balloon, kite balloon should be stationed in the close escort position in all visibilities.

(7) Extended patrol should not be used until the minimum requirements of close escort have been met.

Approved as a preliminary study of the subject of the use of kite balloons in escorts, paper to be mimeographed, and to be given wide distribution to forces for information and inviting comment, in order that a definite doctrine and plan covering the subject may be developed.

Sims,
Vice Admiral, U. S. Navy, Commanding.

LONDON, ENGLAND,
September 30, 1918.


Source: "ONI Publications, WWI" ZV file, Navy Department Library.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1352 From: harry valentine Date: 3/17/2010
Subject: Loop vs Winch transmission of power
One concert about the loop method is its dependency on the coefficient of friction between the driving/driven pulleys and the cable. The windlass system would increase contact between cable an pulley . . . extra guide pulleys could mimimize the risk of the cable being "derailed off" the driving or driven pulleys.
 
A winch does not depend on friction between cable and pulley. An mechanical version of AC power transmission would have 2-sets of winches alternately pulling on a pair of cables . . . one cable reels in as the other reels out while under high tension load.
 
 
Regardless whether loop drive or winch drive is chosen, taughtness of the cable would assure proper transmission of power.
 
 
There is a need for a technology that can transfer large amounts of power over distances of several hundred feet.
 
 
Harry


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1353 From: harry valentine Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Looped Cable windlass mechanisms

 
Delft Technical University researhers theorized that looped cable mechanisms may be able carry up to 200MW of power.
 
 
AWE researchers may be aware that a windlass mechanism involves multiple windings of cable around a drum. It appears possible to link 2-drums in windlass mechanism to transfer large amounts of power, smoothly. Companies like Pirelli manufacture steel cables . . . the also have the ability to manufacture a looped cable using a single, super-long strand of high-strength steel.
 
The strand is wound on to a drum that unwinds as it goes around the loop and on each successive pass, the strand is twisted around the previous looped strand. Eventually the looped cable is of the desired cross-sectional area and the ends of the strand are welded together. This is still an evolving technology with future potential.
 
 
Harry Valentine


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1354 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: Looped Cable windlass mechanisms
Astonishingly, there seems to be no barrier to a dyneema super-hawser conveying far more than 200mw. Future carbon nanotube versions will take the limits even farther.
 
Regarding the self-hauling downward of a cable loop: A good analogy is with a tug-of-war. An upper bull-wheel/capstan pulls in cable "hand-over-hand", driven by the AWE power element. The lifter element tugs the bullwheel up "by-the waist". As long as the lifter pulls harder on the bull-wheel than the bull-wheel pulls on the cable loop the system maintains altitude. If the ground load is increased, at some point the system brings itself down (useful). Twisted line transmission requires similar regulation to avoid hockling.
 
KiteLab's cable loop turbine uses a static third line to the lifter that runs above the cable loop. The third line was intended to always have more tension than the loop pull. The cable loop never wanted to come down until one session when a fat splice knot caught in a ground fairlead (an experiment with thick line & less capstan windings, a proper braided splice would have avoided the incident) but the serendipitous result was to see the system wind itself down under its own power.
 
For a bare two-line cable loop set-up, a feedback mechansim that monitors slack in the return side could easily signal the right load for sustained flight at maximum power-out.


From: harry valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com


 
Delft Technical University researhers theorized that looped cable mechanisms may be able carry up to 200MW of power.
 
 
AWE researchers may be aware that a windlass mechanism involves multiple windings of cable around a drum. It appears possible to link 2-drums in windlass mechanism to transfer large amounts of power, smoothly. Companies like Pirelli manufacture steel cables . . . the also have the ability to manufacture a looped cable using a single, super-long strand of high-strength steel.
 
The strand is wound on to a drum that unwinds as it goes around the loop and on each successive pass, the strand is twisted around the previous looped strand. Eventually the looped cable is of the desired cross-sectional area and the ends of the strand are welded together. This is still an evolving technology with future potential.
 
 
Harry Valentine


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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1355 From: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: New file uploaded to AirborneWindEnergy
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AirborneWindEnergy
group.

File : /KiteLiterature/KiteCraft1915Millerpgs157.pdf
Uploaded by : joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com Description : Kitecraft And Kite Tournaments (1914)

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/files/KiteLiterature/KiteCraft1915Millerpgs157.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

joe_f_90032 <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1356 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: UltraWing (TM), UltraPilot (TM), etc; Statement of Commerical Inten
COMMERCIAL NOTICE:
 
KiteLab Group's rigid AWE wings & membrane wing-mills will marketed under the trademark UltraWing (TM).
 
The Ultra- prefix is generally claimed as a trademark for KiteLab's AWE offerings; for example:, UltraPilot (TM), for pilot-lifter kites.
 
Notice is given that KiteLab Group is a transnational commercial enterprise & seeks trademark protection globally. The Ultra- trademark is also claimed for hydro versions of KiteLab Group's technology.
 
All Rights Reserved.
 
 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1357 From: Doug Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes
I was just at my friend's smog shop in wind-intensive Hesperia, CA where we used top have a turbine on the roof til the landlord made us take it down. He has a dynomometer there with the rollers. People always want to say "hey you could make that so it puts power into the grid while you are smogging cars!. I point out: Where do you think that energy goes, and why is the electric bill here so low?
Rollers etc. yes yes it all sounds great from the viewpoint of someone who is limited to having no generator available and so you have to use the car's generator and adapt something to put the whoile car;s drivetrain into motion to get electricity, but the more likely response from real engineers who build what needs to be built to do the job, who have generators available, would be to have the turbine spin a generator and use that power to recharge the car. The idea of using fuel-cell cars as peaker plants has also been floated around. Sounds possibly logical, all depending on proce and availability of power at any given point in time.
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1358 From: dave santos Date: 3/18/2010
Subject: Re: High Speed Cableways in Tubes
Let us hope "real engineers" do prove smart enough to maximize automotive motor/generator use, even if rollers is the trick. Letting copper lay around as multiple personal low-duty usage generators is too lavish a lifestyle for much of the world. There was a phase in Model T history where the car was found quite useful as an auxiliary power plant. Similarly, my friends & i have long used stock bicycles on training stands as generators & for direct power to tools. Its worked for us, in our versions of paradise, but LA is another world.
 
Buried Cableways is definitely not "Pie-in-the-Sky". Read about an 1878 system 20,700 ft long that is still going strong-
 
www.cablecarmuseum.org/the-cables.html
 
Besides historic urban cablecars, there are many good examples of cables in tubes as a realworld power transmission device. The most common is brake & gear cables on a bicycle. Even the tendons used to type this run in tubes. Let us keep in mind the oldest ideas & renew them as needed.
 
Bob, thanks for reminding us of Gordon, who inspired many current structural engineers. His famous meditations on how nature abhors torsion will stand the test of time as both science & literature. There are a couple of low-power torsion-in-a-tube examples-  A rotary cable in a (short) tube is the basis of the old electric helicopter toy & plumber/dentist/hobbyist tools. Geologic drilling is a high power example, but such rotary drills are far too heavy to fly (thick wall steel tube). Even a carbon version would still be massive & need the drill hole as a support tube for rated power.

 


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

I was just at my friend's smog shop in wind-intensive Hesperia, CA where we used top have a turbine on the roof til the landlord made us take it down. He has a dynomometer there with the rollers. People always want to say "hey you could make that so it puts power into the grid while you are smogging cars!. I point out: Where do you think that energy goes, and why is the electric bill here so low?
Rollers etc. yes yes it all sounds great from the viewpoint of someone who is limited to having no generator available and so you have to use the car's generator and adapt something to put the whoile car;s drivetrain into motion to get electricity, but the more likely response from real engineers who build what needs to be built to do the job, who have generators available, would be to have the turbine spin a generator and use that power to recharge the car. The idea of using fuel-cell cars as peaker plants has also been floated around. Sounds possibly logical, all depending on proce and availability of power at any given point in time.
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1359 From: Doug Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: powering the U.S. grid by electric cars on wind-driven rollers
So you're saying a motor is more expensive than a driven set of rollers that can support a car? So yoyu're saving the cost of the motor by buying the rollers? That by going through the entire process of designing and building a complete system of reverse dynomometers, making everyone go through taking their car to the dyno every day, strapping down the car and coming back and waiting in line to get their car back, all to save the cost of a motor? And you're going to put that many miles on every car's entire drivetrain all day long just to have access to its motor? So you wear out everyones' car all day every day, to save having to buy your own cheap off-the-shelf electric motor? This is why I say: "Hey kids, it's the
Bugs Bunny Roadrunner Hour"!
:)
Doug S.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1360 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
It is a great and probably decisive information for AWECS.

There is a similitude between KiteGen-Politecnico di Torino-Italia and
Tu Delft-Ampyx-Netherlands (probably the winners for a next high
development):their respective initial projects (carousel and Laddermill
loop configurations) gave an impulse.

Now they both work towards reel-out reel-in (or linear) systems.Theese
systems have advantages:simplicity,good ratios for land and space
occupation/power with farms,limited or no collision risks between kites.

The next challenge will be a good smoothing device for grid. Two
reasons:no regular power during reel-out phase,and no power during
reel-in phase:spreading out the phases of AWECS within the farm would
allow a limitation of need smoothing.

Two possibilities at least:hydraulic accumulators (with need big
capacities because of the importance of no power reel-in phase, a global
installation being not possible),and supercapacitors for a complete farm
(the said phase being less problematic because of a possible global
installation in addition to spreading out phases for compensation).It is
a subject for discussion.

I hope my "Frenchglish" language is understandable enough.

Pierre B

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Carlo Perassi <carlo@... wrote:
notes:
http://maps.google.it/maps?q=45.110000,+7.949444&ie=UTF8&ll=45.109998,7.\
949424&spn=0.003358,0.006539&t=k&z=18
http://www.innovazionepa.gov.it/media/368070/innovatori_expo_shanghai.pd\
f
http://www.innovazionepa.gov.it/media/368074/l%27energia%20dell%27aquilo\
ne.pdf
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1361 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Re: powering the U.S. grid by Kite TGV Collectives (not cars)
Actually Doug, no one is saying any such thing ("so you are saying").
 
To Summarize: What is claimed is that an electric car can usefully serve niche applications as a mobile kite power plant. Yes, a cheap jack & rollers is far cheaper than an electric car's motor/gen, not even counting all its attending system. Copper is a strategic material to be carefully maximized, unless you like strip mines, unsustainable high embodied energy, & energy inequity. The design effort to set a car on jackstands is not that daunting & would be leveraged. Waiting in line is hardly a given. JoeF's commuter scheme need not please those who think otherwise, but it is cool. Many folks do indeed want to do small netmeter generation. Wearing out an electric car in generation mode could plausibly deliver ROI where electricity is expensive enough. But you ignore the point of the original idea, flexible "village scale" power & transportation system for folks unable to use cars like LA's problematic car culture.
 
But, hey, my current pet idea is gigawatt scale power by running TGVs cross country chasing the jet stream. We could be like the nomadic Mexican revolutionary villages on rails, hauling our kites around & flying them to TGV tow-charge the grid where the jet stream happens to meander. You are right about one thing; Bugs Bunny & RoadRunner would be worthy tribal totems for our Kite TGVs. Our mottos might indeed be "What's UP, Doc?" & "BEEP-BEEP!"


From: Doug <doug@selsam.com

So you're saying a motor is more expensive than a driven set of rollers that can support a car? So yoyu're saving the cost of the motor by buying the rollers? That by going through the entire process of designing and building a complete system of reverse dynomometers, making everyone go through taking their car to the dyno every day, strapping down the car and coming back and waiting in line to get their car back, all to save the cost of a motor? And you're going to put that many miles on every car's entire drivetrain all day long just to have access to its motor? So you wear out everyones' car all day every day, to save having to buy your own cheap off-the-shelf electric motor? This is why I say: "Hey kids, it's the
Bugs Bunny Roadrunner Hour"!
:)
Doug S.

--- In AirborneWindEnergy@ yahoogroups. com, dave santos <santos137@. ..

.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1362 From: dave santos Date: 3/19/2010
Subject: Smart Grids & Kite Energy: a natural combination
Pierre has raised the issue of the grid power smoothing challenge when large scale Kite Energy is discontinuous. Smart-grids will be designed to handle this sort of problem. Here's one way:
 
Lets say a local 100 mw "pumping kite-mill" is generating on a minutes long 2/3 duty cycle where 1/3 of the time it is not generating & even drawing some power to retract. The kite-mill's output is monitored & all the suitable smart appliances in the area are flexibly controlled to level the grid. Vast numbers of IP networked refrigerators, space/water heaters, air-conditioners, etc., & select industrial processes go to sleep for a few minutes & cycle back on as kite power returns. 
 
Note:
 
My hometown, Austin, Texas, has a progressive electrical utility (Austin Energy) which leads all US cities in wind energy adoption. Texas as a state is now number one in wind & has a unique stand-alone regional grid. City & state intend to lead the world in smart-grid development. In Austin the Pecan Commons is the technology group developing smart-grid technology. Today i presented an overview of kite-energy to the core smart-grid group at the Tech Ranch Austin & they fell in love with it. As a prototype smart grid is developed in Austin, kite energy is proposed as part of the research mix. An abandoned airport (Robert-Mueller) owned by the city near downtown is suitable for a utility-scale low altitude (~500ft) pioneering AWE project. Local projects are being organized to qualify for federal green-energy research stimulus funds. Stay tuned!
 
 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1363 From: harry valentine Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Smart Grids & Kite Energy: a natural combination
US Energy Secretary has called for increased use of grid-scale energy storage technology. Wind power has historically driven water pumps and modern wind power, including AWE can drive any of water pumps, air pumps (compressed air energy storage - CAES) or electrical equipment. NGK of Japan has developed the megawatt-size molten sodium-sulfur battery technology.
 
Using wind power to pump energy into storage can alleviate the power surges that wind energy can impose on to grids.
 
 
Harry

 
 
.



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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1364 From: Carlo Perassi Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:10 AM, Pierre Benhaiem
<pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr IMHO, your Frenchglish is closer to English than you think. :) It's
definitely understandable.
I don't know the latest news from Delft and I don't know if they plan
to use hydraulic accumulators either: on our side, supercapacitors are
certainly an option.

--
Carlo Perassi - http://perassi.org/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1365 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Re: Kytoon and cousins teach
Wow thx, Lynn
---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1366 From: Doug Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: All Roads Lead to Superturbine(R): the Real Deal
You take your "kites" and arrange for them to travel in a circle.
How?: Connect them in the center so they HAVE to travel in a circle.
Now you no longer need to "steer" them so you can fire your "pilot".

Then you make the kites long and narrow, provide them with airfoils and sufficient strength to withstand the thrust force, sufficient finish quality to be smooth in the air, withstand the weather and 180 mph sand & dust abrasion for 20 years.
So the "kites" are starting to look more like sailplane wings at this point. Note: Sailplanes also started out as kites over a century ago (Otto Lillienthal). Mother nature dictates refinement, as we can clearly see.

Make the kites narrow enough to reduce the "blade solidity" of each circle to extract the max power approaching the Betz coefficient.
Then you stack these circular arrangements of kites, one over the next. With a high TSR designed in, they can operate effectively at a slant.

Each kite has a tether. The tethers go down toward Earth in a spiral helix. Each kite is tethered near the center of each circle of kites.
The kites spin in circles, and drag the tethers along, transmitting the tension force downward, along the helical line of each tether, all the way down to the generator, at or near ground level.

You have so many levels of kites that the helical tethers get crowded, and so combine to form a cylindrical tube of sorts. You epoxy the tethers together forming a solid tube. Seeing this, you simply use a filament-wound carbon-fiber tube as your "tethers".

Use a blimp or lifting kite to raise the whole assembly into the air, and once spinning, you'll note that each cirsle of kites has its own lift as well, so with the right orientation, the blimp or lifting kite gets redundant. You see that if each circle of kites could be held at the correct angle, the whole assembly could "fly" without other support from a lifting kite or blimp.

So you add tails with vertical stabilizers that influence the "angle of attack" of the circles of kites, so each circle of kites is in a sufficiently horizontal plane of rotation to lift that circle of kites and the tether weight, going down to the next circle of kites below. The tails are mounted on bearings so the circles of kites can spin freely while the tails trail downwind.

The machine as a whole then is capable of supporting itself against gravity. Each circle of kites flies like a gyrocopter roptor. mThe whole machine rotates together. It is one. No friction, no parts wearing on other parts, no reversing directions, no need to store energy for nonproductive cycles. There is no in-and-out reeling of the tethers, as we are only concerned with transmitting the rotation of the kite circles downward to the generator, with the thrust itself recognized as not producing any power.

So, just as regular wind turbines started with cloth sails, and it was slowly realized that the best path was a circle, then it was slowly realized that the circle should travel across the wind, not upwind and downwind, then the sails got stiffer and got shaped airfoils, then when the electrical generator came along and replaced the grinding stone, the generator was also configured to use that magic circular path, which matched the circular path of the kites (blades) so that ost small turbines have a single moving part.

Guess what the new G.E. 2013 turbine is? Why it looks just like other small turbines: a circle of kites connected at the center, spinning a generator. The gnew generator has no gearbox and uses a ring of supermagnets. G.E's cloth kites are almost unrecognizable with the thickness of many layers of cloth and the binding resin and paint coating, but rest assured, they are just fancy kites connected at the center, flying in a circle.

Progress is made by "standing on the shoulders of giants".
That mreans getting up to speed on a technology before trying to improve it. "Innovators" ignore what has come before, to their own peril. In the field of high altitude wind energy, most of this was worked out years ago, before this internet group ever got started.

Of course a superior design such as this can also work great in "groundhugging" mode, tower-supported mode, or terrain-enabled mode.

All in all, it is a matter if boiling away all the unnecessary aspects of the stacks of rotating kites to arrive at the minimalist result described.

I feel that this group is uniquely situated to help bring the future of wind energy into existence, so I was glad to be invited to the first-ever world conference and fly a small, simplistic, and very limited prototype of this concept, with handmade wooden blades. While we talked the day away, it spun a generator outside. Simple.

We're working on bigger and more powerful versions and hope to have flying versions soon. So this is where I think the whole kite thing is going. Hey even airplanes stared out as cloth kites. The key is to see where this is truly leading and take it seriously and execute it.

All the talk of reeling line in and out, control schemes involving million-dollar budgets and computers, kites powering rollers powering cars powering houses is interesting, but a distraction from the true and simple path or rotating electrical machinery.

I say if we are serious about developing high altitude wind energy, let's stop pretending we don't already have a configuration that works, delivering steady-state rotation to a generator using a single unitary moving part, like other successful wind turbines. I say let's stop beating around the bush and getting mired in one reason after the next why we should not go headlong and full bore into developing this already proven technology that has so few details to work out. Let's do it!

I've heard the idea floated about that this group's purpose is to examine a few possibilites and see what could actually work, and get going developing it. I think that configuration has been placed in front of us, and we should "get on it" and make it happen. I see no need to continue with more diversions. Simple is best.

Thanks for listening.
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.speakerfactory.net/TURBINES/INNOVATIONS/7ROT-7FOOT-2GEN/PAGES/OFFSHORE%20W%20BLIMP%20FROM%20BASE.jpg

http://www.speakerfactory.net/TURBINES/INNOVATIONS/7ROT-7FOOT-2GEN/PAGES/dougballoonsvanth.jpg
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1367 From: Doug Date: 3/20/2010
Subject: Kite & spinning Superturbine(R) tether transmits torque to ground ge
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1368 From: Joe Faust Date: 3/21/2010
Subject: Japan kiting

A new folder has been started. All the world is invited to grow the potential files,

but ever with an eye for works from kite systems. That is, kiting in its first level

already converts wind energy to mechanical energy; the second and third level

of use of that mechanical energy is an AWE aim. 

The aim is AWE in all of ten scales for the project.

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Japan/index.html 

Suggest another nation/state for similar attention.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1369 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)

There are a lot of pdf from Tu Delft and KiteGen but not about smoothing devices (for my knowledge).

So I don't know what are projects about them.In my opinion temporary storage for recovery phase needs huge hydraulic accumulators,even with farm configuration,unlike supercapacitors which can assure a global management and can be smaller in the case of gaps of phases from each kite system within the farm.

However a precise management of gaps of phases is necessary to avoid collision risks.

Smart-grid also can be a possibility but it is not so easy.

PierreB

Example of AWECS with hydraulic accumulators:OrthoKiteBunch 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1370 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Hello,

I will join the TU Delft team in July.
I have a lot of knowledge regarding the storage of electric energy,
being team member of the
"Network for Power Electronics Schleswig-Holstein (Northern Germany)".
I don't think, that a lot of temporary storage is neccesary, if you have
a wind park of many
kites (10 or more), but some temporary storage might help to decrease
the needed power
line capacity.
There are many possibilities:

- vanadium redox batteries (already used for wind power storage in Japan)
- NaS batteries (also often used in Japan)
- Lithium batteries
- ultracapacitors
- mechanical storages, e.g. flywheel enery storage

The question is:
- for how long must the enery be stored? One minute, 10 minutes or more?
- what is the efficiency?
- what is the cost limit?
You have costs, that are related to the amount of enery, that is stored,
and
costs, that are related to the maximum power.

Each technologie has different properties regarding these three basic
questions,
and it is an optimization question, to find the cheapest technologie for
the given
requirements. And, of course, the environmental impact should be taken into
account, too.

Best regards:

Uwe Fechner
University of Applied Science
Kiel (Germany)

Pierre Benhaiem schrieb:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1371 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: KiteGen notes (March 2010)
Hello,

I forgot to mention, that you have also costs, related to the efficiency
of the storage, and
costs related to the cycle life.

So you have an optimization problem with at least five variables and a
couple of given limits.

Best regards:

Uwe Fechner

Uwe Fechner schrieb:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1372 From: Doug Date: 3/22/2010
Subject: Re: Japan kiting
Yeah Joe
See that's the kind of flying stack o' donuts I'm talkin' about, yup, just like the stacked dragon kites of Japan & China, except a spinning version using gyrocopter/turbines as kites. A self-lifting version of the already-proven sky serpent.
Maboomba.
Doug Selsam
http://www.USWINDLABS.com
~<brawk! ahhhhhhhhhhhh roger that......