Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES13057to13107 Page 157 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13057 From: dougselsam Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13058 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13059 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: squealing brakes demo

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13060 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Cheap Easy DIY Superswivels based on Bike Parts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13061 From: Rod Read Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: ring kite descriptions and documentation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13062 From: Rod Read Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Cheap Easy DIY Superswivels based on Bike Parts

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13063 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13064 From: Rod Read Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13065 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13066 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13067 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13068 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Giant Fresnel Lens from old TV

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13069 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Trove of Makani Photo Documentation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13070 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13071 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13072 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Civil Engineering takes note of AWE resource science

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13073 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: How to spot LLJs (local wind maxima)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13074 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13075 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring mount

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13076 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13077 From: dave santos Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13078 From: dave santos Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Hawk Kites and Drones for Aviation Bird Hazard Mitigation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13080 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13081 From: mmarchitti Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-energy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13083 From: dave santos Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13084 From: dave santos Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: kPower kite-training on Hatteras evacuates ahead of Hurricane

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13085 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: High wind test report

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13086 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13087 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13088 From: dave santos Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13089 From: dave santos Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Tuning Difference between Looping and Daisy Foil

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13090 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13091 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Stabilising a lift kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13092 From: dave santos Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: Stabilising a lift kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13093 From: Rod Read Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: Stabilising a lift kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13094 From: mrbittertooth Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13095 From: dave santos Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Scope Robo-Report on AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13096 From: dougselsam Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13097 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Tuscan AWE and Drone R&D (Zefiro and WOW at Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13098 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13099 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: New ASTM Standards for UAS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13100 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13101 From: edoishi Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13102 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13103 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13104 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13105 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Minesto with flygen paravane gains Crown Estate site rights

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13106 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Mothra Definition (and Crosswind-LadderMill note)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13107 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: NRG to enter AWE (rumor)



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13057 From: dougselsam Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

I've been enjoying Yahoo groups for years.  It used to be simple and worked well.  You pulled up a message and it had the whole thread attached - all messages in order.  Then it stopped showing previous messages.  With each "improvement", the simple functionality declines.  Some things are so simple they don't need constant "updates".  Today, my main computer cannot even OPEN Yahoo groups AT ALL!  It will not even open the freakin' PAGE!  So I go over to my old XP backup last resort machine to even open Yahoo Groups.  Then I try to find the "Airborne Wind Energy" group, by searching for Airborne Wind Energy within groups - no luck.  Yahoo returns only unrelated results.  Can this really be happening?  I finally found the group by using the "history" feature of the browser on this old backup machine. 

Many messages themselves do not even load now!  Not one word!  You often have to click on "message history" to even read just the message itself - forget the history.  It is a mystery to me how a multibillion-dollar company can continually screw up something that worked flawlessly 10 years ago, to the point of almost 100% nonfunctionality..  If it worked, why did they have to ruin it?  Forget getting AWE systems to work properly - we can't even get the discussion of them working right!  At this rate, I will have to just forget the discussions, which don't seem to be helping much anyway...
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13058 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
The precise order-independent search string is Yahoo AWES (or AWES Yahoo), which serves up Forum links right at the top. AWES is the FAA-designated standard term for our aviation class, which we adopted as the specific airspace-user community.

The Forum remains by far the most useful public resource for those who keep up with the rapidly evolving field. Its quite amazing to reflect on the early domain knowledge that has been freely shared here, and nowhere else. 

Sorry if you are unable to use the Forum to assist your technical challenges or enhance your venture prospects. This is not a good format for those who cannot disclose what they are working on, such that open-sourced intelligence cannot be applied.


On Monday, June 30, 2014 9:12 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13059 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: squealing brakes demo
Rod,

The Daisy ring-sail center retards attached foil wingtips, causing a strong in-turning force. Looping foils need to tilted INWARD (a push-turn trim input for your present rig) to balance the loop trajectory by added out-turning force. Peter Lynn is only clearer in proportion that his topics are simpler (Ask him to explain how to trim a looping-foil AWES).

The performance-testing link led to a password-wall, which repels many folks from participation,

daveS


On Monday, June 30, 2014 8:15 AM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13060 From: dave santos Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Cheap Easy DIY Superswivels based on Bike Parts

To easily make strong light low-cost AWES swivels DIY, use old bike axle/hub parts found in abundant variety in many a community bike shop. Cut and grind away excess metal, leaving the bearing cups and enough metal and axle to strongly attach shackle-eyes.

Many old axles are hollow for quick-release thru-axle hardware. Use this feature for mechanical control actuation that transpasses the bearings. Hollow axles and thrust-bearings are a common feature of larger vehices, so this DIY system is scalable.

Rod is using a bike-axle swivel in a torque application; leaving wheel rim and spokes a spreader-ring for better shroud-line leverage. Look for suitably dished bike wheels (or rig a string bridle from hub to rim). Bike salvage offers many potential swivel mechanisms for DIY AWE; hollow headsets, pedals, bottom brackets, brakes, etc. These are easily OEM-sourced for AWES production.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13061 From: Rod Read Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: ring kite descriptions and documentation
In trying to demystify kite ring mechanics a bit..
I've published this evernote notebook.
The notebook is set to be shared https://www.evernote.com/pub/rod_read/openkitedesignnotebookcc4.0

Sorry the link to the note didn't work for you Dave...

Try again please.

Dave S previously mentioned
The Daisy ring-sail center retards attached foil wingtips, causing a strong in-turning force.
That's for sure, as will anything non driving, dragging on the kites from within their driving radius...

Everything including top, bottom tether drag, inter ring tethers drag and braking force induced on the ring will play their part inducing spin tighter than the ring radius.

Thanks for this suggestion Dave S
 Looping foils need to tilted INWARD (a push-turn trim input for your present rig) to balance the loop trajectory by added out-turning force.

By tilted inward are you suggesting that the tip of the foil needs to be set closer to the tether root?

Some other trick may work too,
Maybe the kite ring part should only be tethered from behind the kites. giving the kites a lead on form.
or
Maybe a carefully cut slit and pinch in the ring sail to give it an inflating when spun dragging shape. This would require the kites set to drive even further out from the ring.
or
Progressive sized ring sails below toward the driven wheel.

High speed around a way out radius is what I'd look for from the kites, torque being of lesser importance because of the great radius... Torque is already very evident.

Setting the driving kites tips closer to the tether root retards the lift angle setting available to the set.

Doing what can be done to open the driving surfaces to being more perpendicular to the axis of rotation should result in greater power.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Airborne Wind Energy Hardware Designs
Creative Commons 4.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13062 From: Rod Read Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Cheap Easy DIY Superswivels based on Bike Parts
I cut down a roller blade wheel to use for my top bearing.
Wouldn't recommend a strung rim to hub at the low end ... keep it stiff as otherwise you lose directional focus / control... I tried it in the last model... eugh.
If it's ground based, beef it up with stiff stuff.

In that same note above you'll see how I started to bodge guessing how to attach half of a kite to a ring drogue... using a bent bit of cardboard (my son had left it on the floor) as a "former" to hold the drogue flying shape. I drew a line around the stretched on kite topside edge.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13063 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

At bottom of a message, if part of a conversation, will be link for one to open all the messages of that conversation. Two formats result, if conversation is long; choice can be made to have the default title list of the included messages or there is an option to EXPAND ... so that full body of all the messages of the conversation are open in a crossing page.

 

Notice also the button "Topics"  which gives the leading post of a topic. From that one sees how many posts in a topic.  Clicking the first feeds the set of posts of the topic; if list is long there will be an interspersed line link that triggers to open the messages that did not fully show.

 

Best,

JoeF 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13064 From: Rod Read Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
Unfortunately it's true for me too.
None of my old short cut links to yahoo awe forum now work.

firefox Google search for airborne wind energy forum gives a link ranked 2nd which will never complete.

works on my phone chrome browser in incognito mode...

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13065 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
Often the message itself does not show, after clicking on it.  You click on a message and the result is an almost blank page.  Then you have to pull up the whole string just to read the one message.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13066 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
Thanks for the google search term.  I was talking about searching within Yahoo Groups.  Click on "Groups" then search for "Airborne Wind Energy" and you get nothing relevant.  Search for AWES and you get one relevant result out of about 20. Besides that, lately, only my old computer running XP can even pull up "groups" at all.  I can brows anything else on the web using my newer computer, but Yahoo groups can now only load on my old machine, and I can see no reason why this should have emerged as an issue in 2014.  Oh well, what-everrrrrrr....
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13067 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
Related info: Certain analysts on the financial channel talk about Yahoo as a worthless company except they own a good chunk of AliBaba, which is seen as the only value the company actually has, by some commentators anyway.  To me "if it works, don't fix it" should also apply to software. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13068 From: dougselsam Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Giant Fresnel Lens from old TV
For tinkerers and inventors:  My friend who is former head of anemometry at GE Wind told me about this.  He said you can burst a 2x4 into flames in about 2 seconds using a large fresnel lens that can be found as the screen in old projection TV sets.  Remember a few years back, when a bigscreen TV involved a giant cabinet reminiscent of a double-wide commercial video game, and you had to draw the drapes to even see the dark picture?  I was always surprised anyone was willing to pay for such dim entertainment, where it was hard to even see the whole picture at once - you had to move around the room to see various parts of the picture.  Ah the stone-age.  The Atlatl of bigscreens!  The good news is we now have flat screens, and the old projection TV's contain a great item for tinkerers, hobbyists, and inventors: a giant fresnel lens that probably has many undiscovered uses!

My first try a few months ago was being given away at the side of the road - trash day, ya know.  Only problem was it had GREAT sound and a decent picture, so I put it to use in the garage.  Dang!  Disappointing that it worked so well. (?)  The other day I ran across a HUGE Mitsubishi bigscreen curb-find.  The owner told me it worked perfect, but I found the picture was dim, so I removed the screen by prying it off with a screwdriver.  It had 3 layers of plastic, including the fresnel lens.  (One reason the picture was dim was the 3 color guns were covered with dust - yuk!)  A web search told me Mitubishi ones are the best, focusing to a distinct point, whereas some models offer only a diffuse focus point, more suitable for an oven for cooking than melting metal.  Not sure of the details on that but in this case I removed the two useless layers and remounted the fresnel lens in its original frame and it indeed torches a 2x4 in about 2 seconds.  It melts a penny fairly quickly too.  Lots of info on Youtube etc.  All I can say is be careful where you store one of these: if the sun ever goes thru it, you could have an accidental fire!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13069 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Trove of Makani Photo Documentation
After years of overt secrecy, Makani now offers hundreds of photos of its prototype work. This brings back memories of my 2007 experiences at the Alameda HQ, and the sparkling Bay Area party vibe (cue Grateful Dead soundtrack).

The narrow openness belies that Makani continues to earn its "notoriously secretive" (Fast Company) reputation. High secrecy still surrounds GoogleX strategic issues of high-complexity AWES cost, safety, reliability, and effectiveness against global competition with far-different low-complexity concepts.

Is Makani's proposed AWES architecture the most awkward aerospace kludge ever, or the true vision of AWE? Take a close look and make your own pick-

https://plus.google.com/+makani/photos
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13070 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

When apparently blank, the message is holding content

available by a see   three dots.   The sender mixed Reply somehow and the program puts the old stuff under the three dot link; just click the three dots.

 

The address of the group now has the /neo/   in the address; so, old links to old addres won't work.   Save into links from the new address that shows the /neo/ part of the URL.


 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13071 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse

Still living in search results is the old address without the new

/neo/  part of the URL.   Search engines will take some time getting the URL corrected.    Some sites, perhaps even some of mine, may still have the old address without the "/neo/" portion.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13072 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Civil Engineering takes note of AWE resource science
Quality AWE coverage, by a professional engineering society (ASCE) a PhD reviewer no less (Catherine A. Cardo), with a well-deserved focus on Cristina's findings (as inpsired by Wayne). We have high hopes for such reporters as they follow the AWE love story over time-

Where the High-Altitude Wind Blows


image

Where the High-Altitude Wind Blows
Where the High-Altitude Wind Blows Catherine A. Cardno, Ph.D. Researchers have published a map identifying the optimal “sweet spots” for high-altitude wind turbines...

View on www.asce.org
Preview by Yahoo
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13073 From: dave santos Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: How to spot LLJs (local wind maxima)
Today over Ilwaco, WA, a strong LLJ was apparent about 3000ft overhead. The visual signs where rain sprinkles from above and convective tails from below both shearing downwind strongly with the jet. These signs tilt without shear zones when the wind gradient is more consistent.

A Gomberg Falcon Delta sampled the lower margin of the LLJ.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13074 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups getting worse and worse
A working link to yahoo groups seems to depend on whether or not you are already signed into yahoo.

Duckduckgo has the same problem as google in giving you a reliable link to even the official yahoo groups site.

Groups seem to be very low on the yahoo priority list
Yahoo uk front page menu links are
Home mail news sport finance lifestyle celebrity weather answers video flickr mobile More
Under the pop down more tab you get the options
messenger games movies tv cars match.com groups

Groups is their very last priority.

It's a painful question...
Do we need to up sticks and re-home?

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13075 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring mount
My home made kite ring generator is a clunky looking flier.

It would be great if I could actively tune the flying set to optimise for conditions.

Ground based controls seem promising, as the methods imply less weight aloft. Actuation is then by variance in relative line lengths.

However there are always payoffs...
  1. Any line tethering to the outer rim of the kite ring will cause rotational drag
  2. Obtaining components may be tricky, I have no funding.
  3. Large forces are involved.

Kite AOA control on a 4 line kite, sets the relative front to back line lengths. Kite steering sets the relative left and right line lengths.

That's easy, but we want to reduce the length of line being spun at distance from the axis; How can we remove lines and keep control?

Here are suggested improvements in video form http://youtu.be/AUglQwBRyCo    http://youtu.be/7wncBJpuSZE

The videos are pretty much the same, 4 mins long, and a bit boring if you're not into developing ring kites. 

You've got no excuses now though ... You should be.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13076 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m

Rod,

 

Beautiful rendering as usual. The problem seems to be the huge loss of useful torque from the great rotor of kites towards the small wheel of transmission, while useless parasitic axial force is increasing.

 

PierreB 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13077 From: dave santos Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m
Its a worthy study. A concern is that the foils are prone to invert uninflated into the center zone and persist fouled (despite backstay lines).

There does seem to be an overly large ring-drogue in proportion to foil-wing. The ring-slot detail seems secondary to the basic concept-proof, and offers an chance to remove the center-ring (for another AWES). The center line can actually float unattached to the drogue apex, to clean up a lot of inessential bridling, and let the system better comply with perturbations.

The paleo-Daisy could evolve toward a ram-air bottle shape with the foils sprouting foul-resistant from the sides, to perhaps resolve issues. The lifter can also host the Daisy streaming from its kite line, rather than axially on the line. [CC 4.0].


On Wednesday, July 2, 2014 8:35 AM, "Pierre BENHAIEM pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13078 From: dave santos Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Hawk Kites and Drones for Aviation Bird Hazard Mitigation
Hawk kites are an old means to scare birds away from crops and now falconry is showing promise at large airports with bird problems. A logical next step is hawk kites at airports, which would be cheaper than actual falconers.

Tethered hawk kites would ensure reliable constraint from interference with aircraft flight paths. Wind intermittence is tolerable if the need is to inhibit resident birds, but near 100% availability is possible by kite surface-towing or powered drones.

One of Makani's many looming offshore engineering problems is seabirds roosting and pooping on the aircraft, which might require some sort of robotic osprey or sea-eagle or even traditional falconry (other ideas for repelling birds, like sonic irritants, have been found ineffective, due to habituation).

CC 4.0

Falconry Used to Secure North American Airports
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13080 From: Rod Read Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Ring kite control through axle VS through ring VS sliding ring m
Pierre,
There's no loss of torque. Check out the squealing brake in the test videos.

Dave S,
You're a gent.
Thanks for all of your suggestions.
I've attached what you described as a third line thanks. (from the normal middle trailing edge (streamer tie) to the ring bridle point... Will test it out soon.
Howling wind today, but only had time and courage for windsurfing.

The foils have been stiffened ( Sorry, thought I'd already posted pics of this
http://www.evernote.com/shard/s212/sh/45688bab-80fb-409d-a8b6-f48bafd7fd75/f9dc54264bc42ec3b9814fa1708b17b2
 but have been flat out... like my new kite shape he he)
So there's very little chance of them falling / collapsing into the centre... They can still fold in, because the t piece which the stiffening rod fits into rotates around the ring rod... (The T piece is the part that broke the other day)
It's handy that the kites fold in for storage. But they don't fold in whilst flying.

I agree with what you're thinking now... these rods don't scale much.. air beams or ring stacking ...

The ring drogue was an attempt to aid inflation /  avoid crushing of the main kite ring by the lift lines.. It certainly seems to be holding it's shape... may be a bit superfluous.
It would only be used on the top level of a stack... where previously it had been suggested that I should also include a cap like closed ring at the top (as I had drawn)... I decided not to include that cap in this test.


The slot between the two rings does give a large opportunity for parasitic drag to grow as it has a lot of lines connecting the two rings. .. However...
After my very first inflated trampoline experiment it was noted by Doug S that the blockage created by the solid disk  / trampoline bed would create a high pressure buffer upwind of the ring tube thus focusing wind onto the kites...  Like a deployed drag drogue parachute ... Being so draggy it also has a wind alignment function for anything it's connected to upwind.


Dave S, not sure where you have seen the centre line attached to the drogue apex. not done as far as I'm aware.

Dave S, ram air bottle evolution of a daisy sounds great. bit like tornado structure I was getting toward in earlier videos... Going to be tricky to sew in my loft without some clever printing cutting and sewing skills... but I'm improving.

Dave S, daisy streaming from it's (lifters) kite line ... Yep, that's like the kitesat-a-like experiment I was intending to rig next.

Thanks for all the feedback
Keep it typing / writing / videoing / shouted etc..


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13081 From: mmarchitti Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-energy
The wind turbine rises: Is high-altitude the future of wind energy

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13082 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene

Fun article; thanks.

However, it is us to several of us to help correct some misgivings presented by the author.

 

One distinction that first stood out; the author somehow stated that the "chief" of method for "Americans" was flygen.   That is way off target. Groundgen is chief and leader for projects in the Americas. The Tracy and Makani and Altaeros and Sky Windpower plays are flygens filling of niche plays; just because they exist, as did the early flygen of Santos and Selsam, does not make the method "chief" for America. The scores of groundgen projects by kPower, Goldstein, KiteLab, for example have MegaScale in mind without the complexity of lifting generator mass to the heavens.

 

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13083 From: dave santos Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms
Compared to default Kite Farm concepts, where every kite operates independently, integrated Kite Farms seek to aggregate many unit-kites into a single coordinated process. There are many design variations possible, with many hoped-for advantages in cost and performance. KiteGen's Carousel and NTS's Rail Loop are patented schemes for large-scale Rotary Plan Kite Farms. The common idea is for many kites to travel in a large circle attached to massive machinery (carousel or generator-cars).

KiteLab Group has developed Radial Plan Kite Farm concepts to bypass Rotary Plan patent claims with a superior technological basis. In a Radial Plan, a stationary circle of kite-unit cells feed momentum to a central generator via standard cableways. The IP is crowd-sourced on a CC basis. Inherent mechanical advantages of the Radial Plan stationary circle are easily understood by comparing radial v rotary engines. Pistons in this similarity-case equate with unit-kites-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine

All AWES ideas are worth testing to generate hard data and deepen operational experience. Serious Radial v Rotary Plan AWES study is needed to settle competing claims.

Beyond Radial Plan-

Radial Plan Kite Farms may not be the final word in integrated GW scale AWES concepts. Megascale unit-kites would overcome current unit scale limits. Methods for super-kites are emerging, including rope-loadpath arches with many sails (mothra-tech), to host vast energy production. Some form of Rotary Plan (ie. belay around an anchor circle), would be the basis to rotate single super-kites to match wind direction-

http://www.kpowertechnology.com/#!mothra-/c1o5w
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13084 From: dave santos Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: kPower kite-training on Hatteras evacuates ahead of Hurricane
Ed Sapir of kPower successfully evacuated Hatteras well ahead of Hurricane Arthur. He was teaching power kites three-years after AJ's tragic death there (Charles "Action Jackson", a top kite pro instructor KiteShip introduced me to at NABX 2007, who introduced me to NPWs).

Many of our wind paradises are prone to extreme events like tornados and hurricanes. In AWE R&D, we don't chase storms, they come looking for us...

Cape Hatteras Wind Stats / News | REAL Watersports, Inc.

Kiteboarding & kitesurfing accidents, risks, deaths, casualities, kite lessons, snowkiting, powerkiting, IKO


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Kiteboarding & kitesurfing accidents, risks, deaths, cas...
Kiteboarding risks, deaths, casualities, accidents, kitesurfing, kite lessons, snowkiting, powerkiting, IKO, PASA

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Arthur Strengthens Into A Hurricane As N.C. Island Orders Evacuation


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Arthur Strengthens Into A Hurricane As N.C. Island Orde...
The storm is expected to affect Fourth of July travel plans. It's still unclear, however, what kind of weather will be felt along the Eastern Seaboard.

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13085 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: High wind test report
http://windswept-and-interesting.co.uk/?p=135

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Airborne Wind Energy Hardware Designs
Creative Commons 4.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13086 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms
Consider a rotary  / radial mix

If a Daisy type is radial . . . It can be used as the input to a hex layout of tugging radial farm...

How?...

A radial kite farm with a central shaft collection wouldn't of course need exacted phase timing if the pulsed phased input of each kite was collected by separate sprags / ratcheting cranks on the driven shaft.

More complex but more able to deal with wind variance.
Also better for net / blanket installation of kite farming. . . so that where a rotary kite may drive a crank on the rotary axis . . . the crank output can be driving it's 1st hex cell (of a hexagonal farm layout) central collector for 120 deg of it's rotation . . . Then cell 2 for the next 120 cell 3 for the last.

(thinking more ... you'd want to be driving each cell central collector for 180 deg as for 180 deg you are moving your crank connection away from any one point)....

Must get to drawing soon

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Airborne Wind Energy Hardware Designs
Creative Commons 4.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13087 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms
apologies for rushed reply
should read
If a Daisy type is rotary...
and it's crank output is an input to drive a radial pulse collector.

Then again ... what's wrong with the first rotary output?

Radial model is probably best suited to collecting from naturally pulsing moves such as side sweeping across wind and back to drive a vertical axis crank

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Airborne Wind Energy Hardware Designs
Creative Commons 4.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13088 From: dave santos Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms
Yes; sprags, ratchets, and clutches effectively mix multiple arbitrary pumping inputs on a shaft, and this is a valid early solution for a primitively integrated kite farm, but not optimal, since the pumping inputs will randomly combine or miss altogether, forever kicking and idling unduly. In the end we want smooth phased motion with a consistently loaded drivetrain. Our current farm schemes and prototype elements thus resemble historic hit-and-miss engines down to the large flywheels, but must next evolve into less-massive finely-balanced purring engines.

Its not apt that the Daisy should do pumping like a wingmill or looping-foil; if one goes to such lengths to create clean rotary motion from the start, then use continuous loop cableways in a radial kite farm layout. Sprags can still serve for overrunning-clutch duty.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13089 From: dave santos Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Tuning Difference between Looping and Daisy Foil
A looping foil needs to be tuned with turn-in toward the center; compared to a daisy foil, since the daisy is a balanced rotor with the foils firmly opposed in a circle, little or no turn-in required.

Without decided turn-in, a looping foil flies too wide a pattern; or its pilot-lifter needs to be bigger to retard the foil wingtip harder into its turn.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13090 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Radial v Rotary Plan Integrated Kite Farms
I'm gonna take that as a compliment thanks.
Today I worked on smoothing out my lift setup...
however I'm on a slow broadband connection today you'll have to wait for the vid...
description in next post

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13091 From: Rod Read Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Stabilising a lift kite
This will probably have been done on KPower test farm ...

I have one jumbo power sled 36 joker lift kite and had problems yesterday with it flying erratically in a chaotic wind field.

Today,
Attaching to spread anchored tethers and cross linking the bridling to the tether arch allowed me to greatly stabilise flight and maintain good lift.

I've probably read that description of how to solve the problem before...
But here's the video
http://youtu.be/IH30Lkihrtc

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Airborne Wind Energy Hardware Designs
Creative Commons 4.0
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13092 From: dave santos Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: Stabilising a lift kite
Its not clear how much of the apparent stabilization is owed to the staked-out arch v the crossed-bridle. You would need to do side-by-side testing of varied AR twin rigs, with varied differential tunings, to really prove the cross-bridle stabilizes effectively.

Intuitively, the crossed-bridle should act against stable weather-cocking (by shifting CP like a two-line wing). Lynn and others report opposite tuning effects between high AR and low, and high wind and low, and hidden factors are suspected. There could be a damping-effect masking otherwise useful stable oscillation (for added "sweep energy" harvest).

Be warned that lofting a massive steel hammer for experimental airborne ballast violates best-practice for dropped-object hazard-mitigation. A safer ballast approach is to use water, sand bags and/or padding as needed to ensure not even a chipped-tooth accident can occur, much less a fatal head trauma such as your hammer is capable of.


On Friday, July 4, 2014 2:42 PM, "Rod Read rod.read@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13093 From: Rod Read Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: Stabilising a lift kite

I'd agree, the crossed bridle seems to help adjust for weather cocking. As long as the wind is still coming from between the arch tethers.
Whereas the stability inherent of  a staked arch method alone limits the  travel of the kite to the arc of the each sides tethering. Yet only uses the drogue to adjust for weather cocking as is normal for the single line setup.

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13094 From: mrbittertooth Date: 7/6/2014
Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene
Attachments :
    Is it fun also for labelling these major players as "big-wigs"?

    And what about the "theorization" (reportedly made by Corongiu) that "American companies tend towards air generation because of the abundance of patents already issued for on-ground generation technology"?

    Perhaps it's just a way the author uses for mocking "American exceptionalism".

    --
    G.

    =================================================
    Gaetano Dentamaro
    <awes@bittertooth.org Presidente, WOW SpA - http://wow.pe/
    <gaetano.dentamaro@wow.pe +39 340-2417.728 - +39 338-3487.046
    Skype: bittertooth
    =================================================
    That government is best which governs least.
    Henry David Thoreau
    =================================================

    joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13095 From: dave santos Date: 7/6/2014
    Subject: Scope Robo-Report on AWE

    The GreenPeace Blogger relied on an odd mix of sources, mostly well known to us, but Scope eKnowledge was new to me. I followed the breadcrumbs to a strange AWE industry overview linked below, apparently assembled by a fluky AI (knowledge-based agent) and nameless human editor, who nevertheless hit on some interesting conclusions a year ago. 

    AWE is identified as a growth sector within wind energy. Dominant AWE R&D trends are claimed for soft-kites over other platforms, for individual developers over corporate, with a late surge toward autogyro AWES in academic citations. Much here is dated garbage or pure nonsense, but there is an uncanny-valley eeriness to cyborg-journalism crudely mining our public data, to weirdly drive AWE mindshare-

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scopeknowledge.com%2Fdownloads.aspx%3Fdid%3D27&ei=fqmpU__VFPLP0AW9mIHYBQ&usg=AFQjCNF0uC36QrYEledy1RWYD825hGYTdA&sig2=XfKccdyM31gfUFtWyDfCcQ
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13096 From: dougselsam Date: 7/7/2014
    Subject: Re: greenpeaceblogs wind-turbine-rises-high-altitude-future-wind-ene

    Funny - where's the laugh track?  Forget generating TeraWatts, they can't even SPELL it!  Oh really, "Terra"-Watts?  Wouldn't that refer to energy generated by the Earth?


    Less than $20/MWh?  Nothing more than reverse-engineered statistics: check the current cost of 4 cents/kWh and cut it in half - this exercise in fiction is mandatory for all new energy technologies - the company MUST promise cheaper energy, right?  But the calculation is merely based on the wish to be relevant.  Start with current costs and produce a completely fictional lower number.  Wow, what a breakthrough... (A required exercise to get funding).


    How about: "floating AWE turbines are much easier and cheaper to produce and install than conventional wind turbines.”  Sounds good.  So what's the problem?  If they are "much easier and cheaper to produce", what's stopping anyone from cheaply and easily producing them?  Too dumb?

    Then there's this knee-jerk reliance on the opinions of Mike Bernard.  One person in the entire internet AWE drama who has the slightest clue about wind energy.  In real wind energy, EVERYONE has a clue and nobody needs some "special guy" who actually knows something (knows anything?) to come in and give "an actual opinion".

    OK go back to sleep.  :)
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13097 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
    Subject: Tuscan AWE and Drone R&D (Zefiro and WOW at Aeroporto di Capannori)
    Capannori Airport, a small struggling FBO* not far from Florence, is gradually  reinventing itself as an aerospace R&D test facility under a new corporate banner "Zefiro". I got to know Zefiro's founding circle of top-talent back in 2011 when WOW brought me to Capannori for initial planning meetings. It took this long to get local political and national bureaucratic hurdles resolved. 

    Paolo Musimeci, the key figure in bringing AWE into Zefiro, is moving from founding president of WOW to vice-president of Zafiro (Gaetano Dentamaro is the new  WOW president). Eugenio Baronti, the enterprizing airport director, and AWE supporter, is president of Zefiro. Pietro Cambi is a voluble local character who nevertheless creates astounding projects (he hacked a classic Fiat 500 into an electric, then converted a fleet of Smartcars). Prof. Aldo Frediani is a highly creative aerospace expert. Prof. Ugo Bardi is a scientist and leading public intellectual.

    Capannori is hereby established as Italy's hottest AWE R&D location, with an established mix of aviation culture to interact with (civil and military aviation, skydiving dropzone, drone research). Its not far from Talamone, Italy's hottest kiteboarding destination. This is a wonderful opportunity for AWE subject-matter-experts to test and teach AWES state-of-the-art hosted by an exceptional regional culture. There is no doubt that Zefiro will be a leader in creating a glorious future aviation.



    * Many small airports suffer from a shrinking aging private-pilot community, and are scambling for new aviation niche markets, in order to survive.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13098 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
    Subject: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)

    Note strong existing flight-testing and aviation school programs, with AWE programming coming soon-

    Zefiro | Ricerca & Innovazione

    Free kite to the first to spot a KiteLab Ilwaco AWES workcell deep in the site :)
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13099 From: dave santos Date: 7/7/2014
    Subject: New ASTM Standards for UAS
    AWES designers and operators take note that many of these new ASTM standards are applicable to us, and will be enforced-

    Seven New ASTM Standards Cover Major Facets of Drone Operations - Droneport
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13100 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)
    I found a mothra, but was is exactly a "KiteLab Ilwaco AWES workcell" ?

    ++
    Baptiste


    2014-07-07 21:22 GMT+02:00 dave santos santos137@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy] <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13101 From: edoishi Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)
    That image is not a MOTHRA or even a mothra but rather a cropped Laddermill, which is a continuous loop of kites on a single anchor - so it is not even an arch...
    I made the same mistake on first glance.

    This leads to the general discussion question:  What defines a Mothra ?

    I prefer:   A dense array of "kixels" * along a rope load path. Multiple anchor points. Single skin. Intended to provide useful lift as efficiently as possible.

    However: Could one make a mothra with stock parafoils?  or a mono mothra with only one kixel? Or as a dynamic wing capable of producing energy by pumping etc...



    *kite pixel
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13102 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)
    The image appears to me to be a kite arch of arc wings with each wing
    having a flygen at each of their two tips:
    http://www.zefiroinnovazione.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/laddermill400x418-400x400.jpg
    Is it art or photograph of an experiment?

    On 7/8/14, edoishi@yahoo.com [AirborneWindEnergy]
    <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13103 From: Joe Faust Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)
    ... coming under a tradename folder name of "laddermill" without being
    a technical mechanical laddermill. Seems like the intent is static
    lifting of two flown generators with blades driving. Not wing series
    moving up and down, but a self-lifting kite arch with bladed flygens
    attached. If so, then conductive line would transfer electricity. The
    blades are crosswinding within their disks. Such system would fly a
    load of mass in the genertors! Breakway would involve considerable
    investment.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13104 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Re: Zafiro R&D Web Link (Aeroporto di Capannori)
    "Workcell" is a general term-of-art in AWE for a mechanical unit, usually on the ground, that converts raw kite energy into useful work, either as a single cell or part of a cellular array

    The KiteLab Ilwaco Workcell seen on the Zafiro site, one of many such experiments, is a conversion of a professional rowing machine from a few years ago that measures wattage generated by pumping-kite input. It was demoed at WSIKF, and Wayne German even flew it (but winds were light)-

    http://www.zefiroinnovazione.it/team/wow-spa/
    .




    On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 8:45 AM, "Joe Faust joefaust333@gmail.com [AirborneWindEnergy]" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13105 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Minesto with flygen paravane gains Crown Estate site rights

    Minesto with flygen paravane gains Crown Estate site rights:

    Minesto secures exclusive from Crown Estate for tidal power project

     
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13106 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: Mothra Definition (and Crosswind-LadderMill note)

    The following features generally define a classic Mothra-
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 13107 From: dave santos Date: 7/8/2014
    Subject: NRG to enter AWE (rumor)

    There is an emerging role in AWE R&D for NRG, a large fast-growing US energy company, with ambition to be the leader of a green-energy revolution (even criticizing the US EPA for climate-change slowness). NRG is beginning to expand its greenie model overseas (including partnering with Branson's Carbon War Room) and AWE could be its crown-jewel investment.

    Further details are scant, since I only just got the bare rumor (but from a credible source attending an ARPA-E round-table), and need to investigate further. More soon-

    NRG Energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     

     

    image
     

     
     
     
     

    NRG Energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    NRG Energy, Inc. is a large American energy company, dual-headquartered in West Windsor Township, New Jersey, near Princeton and Houston, Texas.[1...

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