Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES12598to12647 Page 148 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12598 From: Rod Read Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12599 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12600 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12601 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12602 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Disclosure: 600+ pages

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12603 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: AWES on Kepler-186f ? Time will tell ....

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12604 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: AWES on Kepler-186f ? Time will tell ....

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12605 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Disclosure: 600+ pages

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12606 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12607 From: Roderick Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: You're invited to join the Evernote notebook: open kite design noteb

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12608 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12609 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12610 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12611 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12612 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12613 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12614 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12615 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12616 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12617 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12618 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12619 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Altaeros on Smithsonian Magazine Website

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12620 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12621 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12622 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12623 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12624 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12625 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12626 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Altaeros on Smithsonian Magazine Website

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12627 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12628 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12629 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12630 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12631 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12632 From: Rod Read Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12633 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Version 1, January 9, 2014:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12634 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Version 1, January 9, 2014:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12635 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Steffen Born

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12636 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: ORI ENDRE [HU]; DEME GABOR [HU]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12637 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Kite Power Plant

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12638 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Joseph J. Clisham, filed in Feb. 28, 1882

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12639 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12640 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12641 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12642 From: dougselsam Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12643 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12644 From: dougselsam Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12645 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Does the forum help you to realize your prototypes?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12646 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Does the forum help to realize some prototypes?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12647 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Does the forum help to realize some prototypes?




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12598 From: Rod Read Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
I thought I'd done a not bad job of describing a way to translate, automate & coordinate the kite power phases with pumping control....
I should get back to drawing soon (had about a month off)


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12599 From: dougselsam Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
I did not understand your written description.  I just saw the word "cam" which I interpreted as rotation, and you cited a kite arch, anchored at each end, which prevents aiming, though people keep citing a large, circular track as a cure for that.  That track sounds like an economic disaster.  I suggested a regular kite instead, like say a parafoil, to preserve the ability to passively respond to changing wind direction.  Not sure about the cam thing, but my thought was if you have a pulling force, using that pulling force.  By the time you are translating the pulling force to rotation, it seems you may fall back into flywheels and a gearbox, turning a generator.  At some point you might as well just use a regular farm windmill, a design proven for 150 years.
The economics of the market-leading best-quality small electric turbines today is such that the electricity they generate can never pay for the turbine, never pay for the property taxes if taxed, and never pay for maintenance, let alone all three.  Still, if you love wind energy, you just like having them run.  The most economical use is off-grid where no power is available, but solar is getting so cheap it's hard to beat.  Solar panels are not beaten to death at 120 mph all day.  They don't require hiring a crane to service.  They just sit there and (boring) do their job. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12600 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight?
Suppose a 1000ft carbon-composite rotating tower drive-shaft for an ST were built to an adequate safety margin. How much might it weigh, and how much power would it take to hold it up at working tension?

A California redwood less than 1/2 the height (<1/4 scale) can weigh 4000 tons*. But carbon fiber is lighter, so lets assume that the tower only weighs 1000 tons. Lets disregard the required tension to keep the tower from kinking. Lets disregard the high aerodynamic down force of a large tube tilted downwind.

It takes 10W to mantain a kilo aloft at 100% efficiency. Lets disregard the lower efficiency of practical lift methods. It would therefore conservatively take 10MW of power to just to sustain just the mass of the tower aloft, before any net energy would be available for harvest. Doug is wrong to assert that the physics of flight are "zero work", and that drive-shafts can scale without becoming massive. ST numbers do not "pencil out".

How much will 1000 tons of carbon tower cost? In the billion-dollar range, based on similarity cases. This conceptual ST wouldn't even reach halfway to the initial FAA clearance for AWES of 2000ft. An vast kite farm's tether set could be made from a single ST driveshaft mass, to then harvest far more area higher and wider, with pure tensile rope-driving as a far more practical transmission basis than long massive drive shafts.

US WindLabs has never answered serious scaling-law and aerodynamic questions, citing purely emotional reasons for years of technical non-responsiveness. There is no ST operating regularly at any scale anywhere in the world, and no progress reported for several years, as predicted by the case made here.

If Doug would please just answer the narrow technical issues posed, it would show him as a serious engineer.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12601 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
Doug,

We will do the demo you request for a $500 fee, including the video. No one is "chicken"; we gladly do custom AWES R&D work for pay. You are not owed any favors, but must pay the piper to call the tune.

Follow your own advice, otherwise,

daveS
On Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:21 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12602 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Disclosure: 600+ pages

[[Original high resolution is available here:  LARGE FILE about 170 MB: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cbncsodxdkenqb8/mDF0hDWIAf     Clicks inside this allow reaching best resolution in large original image. ]]


[[ Another choice with some loss of detail from the original  is a 17 MB file in PDF format of the 608 pages by Dave Santos; PDF file made by EnergyKiteSystems where some compression has occurred, but rotation for reading was achieved on almost all pages:     AWEkPowerDisclosureIPasCC30ByDaveSantos.pdf     ]]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12603 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: AWES on Kepler-186f ? Time will tell ....
AWES on Kepler-186f   ?   Time will tell ....
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12604 From: dave santos Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: AWES on Kepler-186f ? Time will tell ....
Joe,

Another space idea is to power giant lasers by superior winds on planets like Neptune (best wind of all), to remotely drive future interstellar colonies.

Maybe we need not bother, if Kepler-186f AWE powered starships are headed this way already :)

daveS
On Thursday, April 17, 2014 7:47 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12605 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Disclosure: 600+ pages
If you'd like to share comments on these concept sketches you can access a set of clippings, comments and questions I compiled with evernote....
http://www.evernote.com/shard/s212/sh/84894d9e-baae-4779-934c-848190547a7b/606adf905f007ca2e1f17462822a7344

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12606 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
The Cam I suggested is intended to induce a cyclic line tension difference for kite pump action.

You're right of course about the foot placement of a pump ... It shouldn't shift.
Pump line translation and controls can shift fine, as long as they can address wind shifting.
The belaying or 3 anchor systems Dave S has suggested seems suited to this shifting site pumping question.

A central pump under a dual sided (bird and wings) type kite where the only control is centrally induced may be more suitable.

A large circular track seems better suited to a continuously driven, track riding gen... such as a large dia "shaft" ST would want.

As the scale of rise stroke grows the cam control probably needs containment so as the signal is not diluted at the kite surface.

Pumping water may have a much larger future than current use. There is demand in ocean dead zones for layer mixing of nutrients and dissolved gasses. This process can restart life systems previously poisoned or killed by over fishing. (caveat: the wrong type of phytoplankton / or algae may grow and rot to methane) Mixing of thermoclines and flows is also being claimed as ecologically desirable.

A simple tarp / vane anchored to the seabed at all corners but with one end floated, one end sunk, can act as a deflector to encourage mixing in a flow. This is a pump of one sort. Massively effectual, minimal tech.

In the absence of tidal or ocean flow then lifting by large kite of bags of deep water to shallows ... steered by boats.. may be very useful.



Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12607 From: Roderick Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: You're invited to join the Evernote notebook: open kite design noteb
Evernote
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I have shared the notebook:

“open kite design notebook cc3.0”

“A note book available for sharing cc3.0 ideas for colaborative discussion”
Open Notebook

Evernote helps you remember everything. Create and share your own Evernote notebooks with friends and colleagues to start working smarter together.

For support requests, please contact us by going to our support page.

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12608 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight
Sorry you are wrong again.  (But thanks for saying "Doug is wrong" again)
This message is in fact powered by a SuperTurbine(R).  But you just wrote: " There is no ST operating regularly at any scale anywhere in the world", so clearly it is YOU who are wrong.
It's right outside, spinning for years, as a matter of fact.  Others are in use every day, helping to power peoples' homes.  They have steel driveshafts.  Then you said: "no progress reported for several years".  Wrong again, ace.  While the leading manufacturer of small wind turbines, Southwest Windpower, went bankrupt (finally bit the dust last year) after taking in $80 million in funding, without ever having a reliable product developed, we were diligently working out the details of getting SuperTurbine(R) to survive on the exact towers where turbines from Southwest had failed.  Their failures were our opportunity to do better while taking advantage of existing  infrastructure.  Now we have a model that spins forever andnever fails (well of course it can't go forever, but we have not had a failure in years now)  I was out last night in a good wind, watching one spin, and I had a moment of amazement of the quiet, steady-state, motion that made a machine with working parts moving 120 mph look like it was standing still.  People without long experience in wind energy have no idea of the significance of developing a turbine that is even reliable, let alone more powerful for the diameter.  It may be the best model of its size ever.  But there is no point in mentioning any of that to people who know basically nothing about wind energy.   That is like throwing pearsl before swine - they can't even engage in the conversation, let alone make a meaningful contribution, or appreciate any salient fact.  There's no point in having a conversation about wind energy with people who only call names and attempt to agitate, while never producing any machine that delivers a usable amount of energy.  Typically they are amazed when they can show that anything they made can spin for more than a few minutes.  In your case, it is what, an hour-and-a-half, producing no usable energy, right?  So what?  Show us some power.  Pump up that tire.  Or use a pneumatic motor to drive a generator from your tank.   We know why you don't.  because you can't.  Easier for you to find fault with proven ideas that work all-day, every day, like SuperTurbine(R).
All wind turbines must deal with cubic scaling laws.  The main purpose of SuperTurbine(R) has been to address those cubic scaling laws.  Smaller rotors sweep more area for less mass, and spin faster, requiring less gearing, no gearing, and/or a smaller PM alternator.  The ideas, as published, offer many other aspects that address scaling.  There is a process in place to develop the technology and I don't feel the need to re-explore all of the aspects here, just to answer your nebulous negative statements, which would get repetitive.  My take has been "build-it and demo it or shut up" which is why I had the only working demo at the first AWE conference, that had already won Popular Science Invention of the year in June 2008, in which issue SuperTurbine(R) and me were the centerfold.  Previously I had only dated centerfolds.  Those were the days!  Last weekend I had a friend whose band was on tour playing the Roxy in Hollywood on the Sunset Strip.  Only a little over an hour away from here.  It made me homesick for the big city.  No wind down there, but a lot of fun.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12609 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
Uh yeah Roddy, I hear you.  Mixing the layers of the ocean is an intriguing idea, but also may have unintended side effects.  But here's what I see, over and over again:
Any decent idea is automatically self-sabotaged.  If someone suggests a million existing wells that could use a cheap way to pull up the water, the answer is circular tracks and mixing the ocean.  This is what I call the Dr. Seuss syndrome, way easier than finding such a well and using a kite to get water.  That will never happen because all the "smart people" would rather talk about powering lasers on other planets than actually building anything that works.  See, as long as you are in the land of the hypothetical, you can pretend to be a genius.  It's when you have to create something useful in any way, that actually works, that you are humbled by mother nature, and realize that only hard work will get you there, while internet bluster is mostly a distraction.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12610 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
Nice try Dave S., but I could find a better use for 500 bucks - I already sent a free and super-easy idea for you to show how much power you are making, running a foot-operated tire pump.  No extra equipment needed besides a ruler or yardstick, a car with tires, and taking a video.  Of course, actual power output is the last thing you want to know, or have anyone else see.  Have fun.  :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12611 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
Fair enough.... I'm not going out on a kayak today in this wind with a big tarp some rocks and floats ... just to mix an unquantified bit of seawater ....

Lets get back on topic...
Can you give us the schematic of the kind of pump you want restarted....
I'll apply the relevant AWE

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12612 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
I see no evidence of anyone pumping water using kites in Namibia.  Or anywhere else.  Do you have a link?  (We know the answer)  You said "WPI seems on track to be the first to operate kite-pumped water wells in Namibia."  Keyword "seems".  Does it "seem" that way to you?  Really?    Should we place a bet on that?  Can you say "gullible"?  What do you think the actual chances are that WPI will ever pump a useful amount of water in Namibia using a kite?  I can tell you the actual chances.  And you know the answer.  Another "press-release breakthrough", announced just slightly before it actually "breaks through" anything.  Promises, promises.  Joe should archive what percentage of such press-release breakthroughs actually manifest as reality, and he might soon find "The Professor Crackpot Syndrome" is not only real, it dominates, and there are very few exceptions.  I quickly Googled the topic and see promises from 2008 to first operate one in Rutland, then Namibia.  I've mentioned, one more syndrome, one more way to confuse any issue, is, before one has a working system at all, they are already obfuscating the issue by throwing in the names of obscure places with little or no industrial development.  Just when an observer is about to ask exactly how well it works, they are handed a guilt-trip envisioning people in some undeveloped place with no electricty.  The real idea is to keep changing the subject and interjecting emotional content so as to delay having to face, let alone solve, the technical issues.  This all takes subconsciously.  The idea seems to be that if a system is unworkable here, and if rich people can't afford it, taking the idea on a safari will magically solve all the technical issues and result in a working solution.  What I saw was an idea for generating electricity using intermittent kite-pulling to actuate a lever arm that is used to spin a generator.  How is it working today?  Any news on that?  Or have they moved on to the next press-release?  Are they generating as much power as your foot-powered bicycle pump?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12613 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: What would an ST weigh, at what energetic cost to sustain flight
Doug,

Let the record show you do not address what a 1000 ft ST would weigh, nor refute that the energetic cost would be Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">
Redefining the ST, for clarity, as something conventional HAWTs have (a driveshaft) means you are not the ST inventor.

Thanks for a hint at your "progress" (a plan to put ST's on towers left vacant). We await further news, but you could share with us how high these units will reach, what lifting basis you have chosen, etc.,

daveS


On Friday, April 18, 2014 7:13 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12614 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
more innovation occurs in poorer nations than does in fancy plush lands...
Necessity, the mother of invention, fixes roofs, waters plants and shelters animals...
 
Let's not pretend AWE is necessary in developing nations.
It may be necessary to find new power means. AWE is one method.

You can achieve on an old nokia 5110 the functionality obfuscated by windows 8 core i7 shnaz

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12615 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
Doug,

Smart move. You would surely lose your $500 to bet against kite pumping doing exactly what you challenge, so I accept your withdrawal.

Obviously the demos of pumping water or air with kites is no major feat for kPower, even using only standard power and pilot kites. When WPI, or anyone else does succeed in driving water pumping in a real world setting, it will be against your predictions.

You have left a very clear trail of skepticism on the record about many AWE teams and individuals, so understand how wonderful it will be for them to prove better than you could imagine,

daveS
On Friday, April 18, 2014 8:52 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12616 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
Hi Roddy:  Google "sucker rod" "Windmill" and maybe "water" "pumping", and you will find ample explanations of how they work.  Lots of diagrams and explanations.  It is often cited that the basic design has not changed in 150 years.  It may also be that some modification of the basic setup, such as a longer stroke, might make it more amenable to kite-pulling.  Millions of these wind-powered wells are all around the world.  The cost per gallon pumped can be broken down according to the cost of drilling the well and dropping in and caulking with concrete the casing and pump, the cost of the tower and windmill with its associated gearbox and long sucker rod, the cost of installation, then the cost of maintenance over time, and whatever cost might be associated with operating the pump, which would be much higher if it involves constant onsite human intervention.  The wells are proven.  The windwheels on relatively short towers that drive them are similarly proven, and can run unattended for years.  What remains is to improve on these windwheels on towers.  Can it be done?  Nobody knows for sure until someone actually does it!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12617 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
Doug wrote: "What remains is to improve on these windwheels on towers.  Can it be done?  Nobody knows for sure until someone actually does it!"


Thank you for finally conceding that AWE is an open possibility, rather than only berating those active in the quest, as if you somehow knew for "for sure".
On Friday, April 18, 2014 9:30 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12618 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
Dave S. please stop changing the subject.  I asked what you think the chances WPI will usefully pump water in Namibia.  I can pretty much guarantee the answer.  Your response, as usual, reads like some sort of Nostradamus-inspired threat.  Try answering the exact question.  I prefer to stick to simple facts, one at a time, that can be proven, not endless posturing and threats.  Let me know when you can show me WPI pumping water in Namibia using kites.  No I would not enter into a bet with you because you would always find a way to change the subject and avoid admitting you lost the bet, let alone pay  up.  Give me a break - I have to "consider the source".  For the same reason, you can't get anyone who knows anything to "debate" you.  What would be the point?  You can't stick to a topic or answer even one simple question.  You avoid facts like you are allergic to them.  I will tell you the answer to whether the folks at WPI will have a useful kite-powered water-pumping system in Namibia: ZERO.  Can you understand the concept of ZERO?  Can you understand the concept of endless LIES?  Lie after lie after lie?  The chances are ZERO because if they had something that worked, they'd do it in their own backyard to start, and you would have heard about it.  Naming far-off places that most people could not find on a map will not save them.  It is a delaying tactic, and even they are not aware of the fact that they have long ago fell into a well-worn syndrome.  Please stop characterizing ME as some sort of skeptic when I maintain that it is possible to pump water using a kiyte and in fact advocated doing so.,  Yes it is possible.  No, nobody is doing it.  Go ahead and send my 500 bucks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12619 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Altaeros on Smithsonian Magazine Website

BAT is a fine generic term, apparently coined by Altaros, for the class of Buoyant Wind Turbine, just as Makani has coined AWT for general use. The major players exert a strong linguistic influence in terms-of-art, not just trademarks.

The Altaeros BAT is growing wings, morphing closer to KiteShip/KiteLab Variants. Will the shrouded turbine and complex envelope really compete against suspended turbines under conventional aerostats? Altaero faces the choice internally, of stealing-the-march to open-source BAT KIS, before outside competition claims the cheaper lower-complexity BAT space.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12620 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
You are correct Roddy: On the real wind energy yahoo group, we recently lost a member hailing from Texas, with about 30 years of wind energy experience in Columbia (South America).  He was an electrical engineer.  The stories of the things they made work, including pumping water, were phenomenal.  (If I remember he used electric pumps).  His narrative boggled the mind.  He had so many tricks up his sleeve, so many success stories of McGuyvering wind energy in a third-world type environment, it was truly amazing.  He also offered to come out to California and help with the California Energy Commission-sponsored SuperTurbine(R) project at no charge, insisting he could add MPPT electronics to improve the output .  I kept telling him he should write a book, but, unfortunately, he passed away a few months ago.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12621 From: dougselsam Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
I'm sorry if you find it offensive when someone knows what they are talking about.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12622 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
Doug,

Thanks for your question about WPI's prospects. These are historic efforts we are judging.

I think the chances are quite high that WPI will succeed in its AWES goals. I have the highest respect for David Olinger (a friend from KULeuven confr.), Jitentra Goela, and their student team. I hope to someday personally tell Goela what an inspiration he has been.

Thanks for closely keeping things on subject,

daveS
On Friday, April 18, 2014 10:33 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12623 From: dave santos Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water
Doug,

Your are off-subject again, but I accept your apology; and really don't always know what I am talking about,

daveS

Correction: I am not in the World Kite Museum Hall of Fame as JohnO thought. That honor requires a lifetime achievement. Maybe in twenty years, if I work really hard...
On Friday, April 18, 2014 10:39 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12624 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: pumping for water

I will look up sucker rod thanks Doug, but I'm afraid I'll find a picture of me with a straw.
You must forgive my ignorance, water really isn't short on the ground here.
I was once involved in drilling a water well in the Sahara... Should also have remembered my high school geography how water was lifted from the Nile.

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12625 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites
K: {W1, T, W2}.   When W1 elements are intended not to move relative to the media that embeds the W1 elements, then we have a fixed-anchor kite system; for such explore anchors.  Of course we also have kite systems with an anchor system that moves: railed carts, trolleys, cars, trucks, trains, kiteboard, boat, ... 

Consider a kite system with its resistive set or anchor as a set of elements that kite in soils (sand, mud, gravel, grain, etc.) with various amounts of designed controls on those elements for achieving the "flight" in the soils. We have families of soil-kite systems.    Soil kites have wing elements operating with the kiting principle within some kind of soil.  Soil kites may wings at the other end of its tethers that are air-wings or water wings or even other soil wings.  When kite-system anchors are dynamic soil foils with intentional movement (sometimes unintentional!), then we enter the realm of soil kiting. A branch of FFAWE involves soil kiting as well as water-kiting (where we thus do not call water a soil, but just water). A first FFAWE branch involves air-air kite systems, but we have seen amble air-water FFAWE. 
   
One main folder to trace soil kiting:  http://www.energykitesystems.net/SoilKite/index.html

This topic thread invites discussion on "soil kiting" and "soil kite" systems.  Uses, designs, projects, soil foil designs, soil-foil controls (passive or active), and commercial and recreational opportunities.
 
~JoeF


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12626 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Altaeros on Smithsonian Magazine Website
Doug Selsam may be gloating over this . . . . .  2 x 2-bladed turbines set at a distance apart on the same shaft may yield greater output . . . . MIT may have to consider such an option.

Suspending turbines under aerostats . . . . .  counter-rotating turbines on parallel shafts . . or shafts that are closer together at one end and spread wider apart toward the other end . . . with multiple turbines on each shaft.

The competing technology from Italy would have kites pulling on a carousel . . . . while another competing technology would have kites pulling on a vessel with kinetic turbines in the water . . . and on-board batteries to store power. The latter could collect power at night when there is low demand for power  . . . . then sail into port and provide peak hour power.


At least the competition between different AWE technologies is getting under way . . . and perhaps long overdue. 
 
Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:24:03 -0700
Subject: [AWES] Altaeros on Smithsonian Magazine Website

 


BAT is a fine generic term, apparently coined by Altaros, for the class of Buoyant Wind Turbine, just as Makani has coined AWT for general use. The major players exert a strong linguistic influence in terms-of-art, not just trademarks.

The Altaeros BAT is growing wings, morphing closer to KiteShip/KiteLab Variants. Will the shrouded turbine and complex envelope really compete against suspended turbines under conventional aerostats? Altaero faces the choice internally, of stealing-the-march to open-source BAT KIS, before outside competition claims the cheaper lower-complexity BAT space.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12627 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Pumping Water AWES (review and update)
What Doug faileth to remember... (ah that's so fun Dave you're so right...)
The chances are ZERO because if they had something that worked, they'd do it in their own backyard to start, and you would have heard about it.
It was on the front lawn of the uni in the pictures and on a local farm where they producing ... ok about a cup of water per minute... but their pumping rig really sucked (personal non technical opinion)
As presented in AWEC2013 Berlin

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12628 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites
That'll be a plough then.

maybe fixed plough shape cloth blades on the sea floor facing into ocean currents are what will best mix water where needed

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12629 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites
Yes, Rod, ploughing occurs at the soil foil end of a soil kite system. Yet traditional soil ploughing need not be the limit of soil kiting.   Some land-kiters are "ploughing" the sands with their feet, shoes, and land boards with their soil-kite systems. 

Applications of soil kites:

  • ==  Plough the soil in preparation for planting seeds.
  • == Have the soil foils of the soil kite sift for sized objects.
  • == Have the soil foils of the soil kite detonate war mines left in the soil.
  • == Have the soil foils of the soil kite harvest potatoes or other special roots.
  • == Have the soil foils of the soil kite be of complex design so part of the foil construct takes off the land the weeds.
  • == Have the soil foil of the soil kite be of complex design so an upper part is a platform for giving entertainment rides to people from one place to another even while lower parts of the soil foil might be tilling the soil for food-planting.
  • == The soil may be at the bottom of a pond or ocean or sea; have the soil kite be of upper air wings tethered to soil wings "flying" in the silt of the seafloor when special geoengineering purposes are approved or sea-floor harvesting is approved, etc.
  • == Replace those fueled trucks at public sanded beach parks that pull sifted to pick up trash out of the sand; replace with soil kites using the onshore wind on the air elements while driving towed soil-foils shaped to sift for trash in the sand.
  • ... [and much more ...   Anyone?  Invite planetary applications beyond earth .. etc. ] 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12630 From: Rod Read Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites

Hunting for meteorites.
Cutting peats.
Cutting channels in ice.
Pinging geological surveys.

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12631 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites
Rod, 
Pinging geological surveys.   kitepowercoop.org  [Does that mean flying through soils, perhaps with instruments in the soil foil,  studying the reactions in order to map the geology of a region?]
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12632 From: Rod Read Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Soil Kiting, Soil Kites
Anything that pings and looks for a signal...... sonar / sonic, radar, other radio frequencies.
Maybe 1 soil kite would be transmit one receive.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12633 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Version 1, January 9, 2014:
Kite Generator System
Modeling and Grid Integration
Mariam S. Ahmed, Ahmad Hably, and Seddik Bacha, Member, IEEE
Author manuscript, published in "IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON SUSTAINABLE ENERGY 4, 4 (2013) 968-976"
 DOI : 10.1109/TSTE.2013.2260364

"This paper deals principally with the grid connection problem of a kite=based system, ..."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12634 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Re: Version 1, January 9, 2014:
The article did shy away from having kytoons be kite systems and did shy away from having AWTs from being the kite systems that they are. 
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12635 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Steffen Born
Steffen Born
Singleskin kite with flow element translated from German
DE 202013009409 U1
(applied for patent)  Filed: Oct 21, 2013
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12636 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: ORI ENDRE [HU]; DEME GABOR [HU]
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12637 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/19/2014
Subject: Kite Power Plant
Kite power plant translated from Chinese
CN 103511188 A
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12638 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Joseph J. Clisham, filed in Feb. 28, 1882
http://www.energykitesystems.net/KitePatents/US/US291691/index.html 
Consider world-surround for the like ...
N-S
E-W
Such would make NEWS.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12639 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: mechanised pumping automation sketch
Doug wanted to see some ideas for water pump automation.
Well some working examples was what he wanted...

In absense of exact working descriptions, I drew a sketch of how
a backline tension can be controlled by a cam run by 2 freewheel hubs on a rail set to reciprocally tension and pump a line..

http://youtu.be/_M8D_y0pvB4

A neater idea may be gripping and releasing a continual running line driven by a rotary kite device.
So say a rope grabber similar to
latch reset it's grip at the top and bottom of a travel rail guide...
simple surely...
we could drive our pump as long as the wind blew and kite flew.


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12640 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch
So for water pumping by tying the rod top to a latching cleat trolley, which shuttles up and down a continuous moving line...
I made this sketch http://youtu.be/a2PTbDJoCrQ

A much improved version will have smoother rope engagement, and the latching will be more steady... (this latching cam clamp configuration will probably ping off under too much tension.. or not engage with insufficient fall momentum)

Please suggest alternatives.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12641 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12642 From: dougselsam Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch
Thank you Roddy.  I am honored that you would place my name on your video.  I'm still thinking, though, that there is some very simple solution out there just waiting to be discovered, that would use a simple up and down motion of a kite directly coupled to a simple up and down motion of a pump.  What you've drawn assumes you already have brought rotation down to ground level, in which case, the existing drive mechanism already in use on the 150-year-old farm windmill could be utilized.  But what you don't show is a way to translate the pumping motion of a kite to that rotation at ground level in the first place, which would be the key missing link.  My thought is, eliminate the "middle man" of rotation(?).  Maybe it is not needed.  To me, bringing rotation is a challenge that could be bypassed for the great need of providing a water supply, by utilizing a pumping motion of a kite, to drive an up-and-down pumping pump, for pumping water.  I get the impression that the kite people have easy ways to get a kite to "pump" (or pick your descriptive word).  If a more economical way of pumping water is developed, whether kite-based or not, it would find a wide demand across the world, not dependent on any particular location, or so I believe.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12643 From: Rod Read Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch
Hold yer horses a bit Doug,
Look again. There were two videos with your name on them....

In the first: A kite is controlled to vary it's lift periodicity. Input, process and output all stayed linear stroke. There were rotary guide rails and a rotary Cam to adjust back line tension... (note the new use of a double stroke dual freewheel hub axle... love them) Lift stroke and drop stroke were linear.   just how you wanted it.... It was a bit sucky though.. (I may yet be proven wrong)

In the second video: Yes rotary motion was converted into linear motion... and similar apparatus to the existing solution could be used, even with much less tower....
However, What you faileth to note...
There are many ways to get rotary motion out of a kite, even a linear stroking kite... such as the dual stroke motor from KPower, An ST, a Tornado, A spinny kite of some other sort.
The vertical arrangement is unnecessary too, as this would easily run close to the ground.

CC3.0 NC BY SA the whole thing

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12644 From: dougselsam Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: mechanised pumping automation sketch
I saw the first one but did not understand it.  Probably due to my cranial density.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12645 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Does the forum help you to realize your prototypes?

Concerning FlygenKite my answer is no. Is it different for Doug's ground-based or flexible AWE SuperTurbine(R); Rod's disk (kites arround a ring); DaveS's tripod with short strokes or a turbine fixed on a tether of a lifting kite; DaveL's reeling gyrocopter; JoeF's lever systems, and others?

Perhaps a real open and collaborative realization can exist with the forum as making pumping water kite.

 

PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12646 From: benhaiemp Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Does the forum help to realize some prototypes?

Questions to RodR, DougS, DaveS, DaveL, JoeF and others: does the forum help you to realize your prototypes? Concerning FlygenKite my answer actually is no. Is it different for ground-based or flexible AWE SuperTurbine(R), Rod's disk (soft kites arround a ring), DaveS's turbine on single line of static kite, or tripod short strokes, DaveL's reeling gyrocopter, JoeF's lever systems?

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12647 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Does the forum help to realize some prototypes?
Yes, the AWES forum helps me realize some prototypes. 
~ JoeF