Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES12295to12344 Page 142 of 440.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12295 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12296 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12300 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Straight tracks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12301 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: AWES interface with such as MatterNet ? Ideas?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12302 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Three-media AWES

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12303 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12304 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Miguel Pita Soares da Fonseca Calvário studied AWES cable in 2010

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12305 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: AWE Encampment Changes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12306 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wing ring, and mechanism and method with same

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12307 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Rope Revolution Continues

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12308 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Article for study? re: some industry review "March 2014"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12309 From: dougselsam Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12310 From: dougselsam Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12311 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12312 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12313 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12314 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Ready to fly kite in nodes of sound waves?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12315 From: Mike Barnard Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12316 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12317 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12318 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12319 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: What does KiteLab stand for?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12320 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: US Navy SUPSALV

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12321 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12322 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: US Navy SUPSALV

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12323 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12324 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12325 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: US Navy SUPSALV

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12326 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12327 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Analogical Interlude: "Slomo"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12328 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12329 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12330 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12331 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12332 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Hung Shunting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12333 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12334 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12335 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12336 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Off-beat idea(Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12337 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Hung Rotating Ring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12338 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Rotating Ring

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12339 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Fencing and/or Tenting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12340 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Shade

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12341 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12342 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Ready to fly kite in nodes of sound waves?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12343 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Reversible Dynamics (passive and active flapping)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12344 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12295 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats
There have been successful demonstrations of kites pulling ships along routes that are parallel to the prevailing trade winds.

To enhance the profile of AWE to the general public, there may be a need for some spectacular application of AWE technology . . . . like a kite propelled racing yacht competing in a race. 

A rail mounted close to water level and around the hull of the boat would allow for a kite with 4-control lines (2-upper and 2-lower lines, upper set located directly above the lower set) to pull from any of the port side, starboard side or bow of the boat. A carriage on wheeled runners that ride on the rail would carry the kite control tethers.

A high-performance kite-pulled boat or racing yacht may enhance AWE's public profile.


Harry
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12296 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats
Do you mean something like the kiteboat project?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjm9nvxOWGQ
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12297 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats
Convenient link to their home site:  http://project.kiteboat.com/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats
They mention Makani in their site. 

And 
http://project.kiteboat.com/2012/01/electronic-kite-inflator/   IMS   Inflation Management System for their kite inflator. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12299 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kites, rails and Ships/Boats
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12300 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Straight tracks
Notice how straight tracks are made by various AWES dedicated to traction of people, boats, ships, yachts, carts, buggies, skaters, snow kiiters, water kiteboarders, ice kiters, etc. The power of the wind is converter to mechanical energy. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12301 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: AWES interface with such as MatterNet ? Ideas?
AWES interface with such as MatterNet ?  Ideas?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12302 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Three-media AWES
 Three-Media Kite Systems

Variants of "three-media" AWES are invited to be presented and discussed. 

CC BY NC SA by kPower
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12303 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Festo is a leading pneumatics automation supplier. They also do exotic engineering demos for educational PR, like robot blimps and wingmills, deserving of professional respect. Let the record stand that wingmills are a respectable study in aerospace and AWE, as many interesting AE team efforts prove.

As career technologist who has applied industrial pnuematics for experimental robotics for over thirty years, including pioneering robot blimps and wingmills, I consistently recommend pnuematics as a favored actuation basis in the broad range between small scale electrical and giant scale hydraulic actuators. Whether by standing AWES Forum advice, or independent study, Makani is lately specifying pnuematics for M600 control actuation.

Best regards to Festo and their talented AWE collaborators.




On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:47 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12304 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Miguel Pita Soares da Fonseca Calvário studied AWES cable in 2010
 Cable-for-AWES study published in 2010 by Miguel Pita Soares da Fonseca Calvário; the thesis gives mention of Omnidea.   Modelling a Cable Structure for a New Wind Energy Production Device

http://www.energykitesystems.net/Omnidea/index.html  is our tracing folder re: Omnidea.
(yes, one "i" in the company name)
Anyone know the genesis of the word "BOREAS" ?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12305 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: AWE Encampment Changes
This is the third year of the Texas AWE Encampment, so accumulated experience is strongly driving improvements. We have kept as many different kites flying as many hours as possible, in all wind conditions, to prepare us for managing AWES intensively in the future.

Two prototype kite engines spent the last year living out in the field (only tested for short debugging sessions). They have been brought into the tractor barn for upgrades. When these machines go back out, others will be newer versions, to colonize new corners of the kite farm. Our local smart-grid core is working, with grid-tie inverter and separate metering. We will be ready to trickle kite power onto the grid as we complete the DC-side network. We had to fight for grid-tie rights for decades, so its a joy to be reminded that we won (same with our micro-FM activism).

We are overhauling the kite-farm anchor field, pulling up all the T-pole stakes in order to refine and reset features in ever more optimal geometries. Only the three 10ton rated anchors set in 2011 will remain as first set. The swaged-end wire-rope cableway will be extended by two legs to complete the triangle of roughly 35m sides. This makes six crosswind directions available to match to any wind direction (each leg is flown from either side). The base AWES cableway infrastructure will have cost ~1000USD in materials, with only a day or two of total labor.

The hay production has been dormant in recent cold. Our ad hoc "crop-circle" mowing pattern to facilitate kite handling has faded, so a great leap forward in functional layout is planned, which will be particularly vivid from KAP photos (expect old KAP photos from Ed and Chase). Our hay production is organic, with some weed content, so its classed as low-grade "cow hay". We continue to find that mowing minimal paths in the hay for AWES use has no serious impact on hay production.

We now have use of all the farm residences and shop space, and are closer to securing the kFarm long-term as an AWES R&D and eventual electrical production site. Grid trunk lines run nearby, so the site is well placed to supply the Texas grid.As kFarm is fully established as an AWE center, may new AWE Encampments emerge all over the world.

Keep in mind that the Encampment is an open laboratory, not the promotion of any one pet idea. That has not changed. Follow-on posts will describe specific new AWES tests, new faces, and AWEfest issues in the AWE Encampment context. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12306 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Wing ring, and mechanism and method with same

Since I do not yet have a good translation of the subject patent, here is a tease figure: 


First page clipping of WO2013041025 (A1)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12307 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Rope Revolution Continues
Industrial manufacturers have not yet found the upper practical limit to UHMPE (top acronym choice) rope. Cortland of the US Pacific NW makes ropes rated at 1893 metric tons. This is COTS for AWE, not science-fiction.

The twelve-strand braided construction and light pliable feel allow a traditional rigger to make classic spices from sailing's golden age. That's a fine 21st Century contrast, the tiny power of a human working a rope by hand, and that rope's potential power transmission at gigawatt ratings (as F=ma). What an awesome quasi sci-fi historical-re-enaction vibe such techne conveys-
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12308 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Article for study? re: some industry review "March 2014"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12309 From: dougselsam Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Correcting two (2) wrong statements:
1) You just said: "Let the record stand that wingmills are a respectable study in aerospace and AWE".  I am saying that statement is incorrect:
There is no such previous "standing" in "the record" that could remain "standing" now.  "The record" indicates that such devices are not effective.
The "let the record stand" statement implies:
     a) You have some authority to pronounce such, as though you control "the record".  My experience says this device is useless for wind energy, and I have explained exactly why at great length.  The same material could sweep 30 times the area, and gather 100x the power, if used normally.  "The ACTUAL record" of ACTUAL wind energy says unequivocally that is is a well-known and long-proven false trail, a waste of material for inefficient machines that quickly wear out.
     b) Perhaps flying machines based on dragonfly aerodynamics are "respectable", but not a "wingmill".  But if we are going to play the game of making authoritative pronouncements, as the representative of real wind energy people in this group, I'd like to contribute the following: People trying to harness wind energy with such a device are known in wind energy as "wingnuts".
2) A few days ago you stated that this Festo machine was not meant as a serious wind energy device, just a study.  Below is today's coverage of this device in Gizmag where Festo not only declare it as a serious wind energy device, but claim it is more efficient (45%) than a comparable normal wind turbine(!).  (Oh no, not another one!  Sheesh!  Groan ;))  We in wind have read this same claim so many times by previous such devices that it is, on the one hand, laughable, but on the other hand, a concern that credentialed people can so easily fool themselves or outright lie, and we've heard that same lie 100 times.  Of course, if they said the truth: "It is less efficient that a regular wind turbine", it would not seem to be worth reading, right?  What kind of press-release would that make?  So they almost HAVE to say that.  It's part of "the syndrome", and you know what syndrome I am talking about.  I guarantee you will never see such a device productively employed in wind energy.  Press-release science rears its lying head once again (for the thousandth time).  Please see link and cut/paste quoted below from Gizmag:
www.gizmag.com/festo-dualwinggenerator-turbine-energy-wind/31478/

"The DualWingGenerator system is comprised of a vertical column supporting a bottom and top pair of "wings" that measure 250 cm (98.4 in) across. The pairs are fitted to separate sliders and then driven up and down as the air flows across the surfaces.

As the wind blows, the wings move in opposing directions, the bottom wings moving upwards as the top move downwards, or vice versa. This motion is then converted into rotary movement inside the column using two timing belts and two free wheels. The rotary force is then transferred to an electricity generator to complete the kinetic to electricity power transformation.

Festo tested the effectiveness of the DualWingGenerator alongside two similar-sized conventional wind turbines. The team says that the system achieved "remarkable outputs compared to small wind power stations," observing a 45 percent fluid-mechanical effectiveness level when used in wind speeds between 4 and 8 meters per second (with the maximum, or Betz' limit being 59.3 percent). The system also demonstrated a marginally higher energy output when used at similarly low wind speeds.


While the output of the DualWingGenerator, like all wind turbines, is related to the strength of the wind, Festo aims to lessen its dependence on the elements with what it describes as intelligent control technology.

This technology is designed to enable the system to self-optimize and adapt to different wind conditions. It involves two servomotors and a sensor built into the central column to dictate the angle, amplitude and frequency of the flapping.

While there is no indication of when or if the system might reach the marketplace, Festo is continuing to develop the technology and cites potential applications such as small scale installations on buildings or for generating compressed air or a water."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12310 From: dougselsam Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes
Sounds like fun.  I wonder if the electric company is saying "They fought for 20 years for the right to connect their devices, but we're not seeing any power come back!"?  Just so you know, you can plug in a grid-tie inverter anytime, anywhere, and use your own meter to see how much grid-power you're making, and nobody will know or care.  Many electric motors occasionally push power back into the grid.  The grid is like, a big user-friendly rubber-band sponge.  Very accomodating.  The benefit of making net-metering official is to lower your electric bill, especially if you're making lots of power when nobody is home, using a new "smart" meter.  Otherwise, you usually don't actually push power into the grid, just offset your own simultaneous local use.  For occasional experimentation, connection is easy and does not present a problem, but you should make sure you're using an approved device just to make sure everything is safe.
The FM station also sounds like fun.  Or AM for that matter.  One more project I wish I had time for... (sigh)   We have a 120-foot tower here (to support the windmill that powers this place), which might be used to elevate an antenna.  Wish I could tune in your station from California.
With regard to vegetation, we have essentially none.  No hay exactly here. But we DO have hay and sod farms where the water table is close to the surface, but here specifically it is 900 feet down.  Weeds come up after it rains and we have to drag the property and remove them or the fire department will come by and fine us.   You've heard of our famous wildfires here in ultra-dry Southern California.  Well this desert is even more dry.  It makes the rest of Southern California seem like a rain forest in comparison.  I think we've had maybe 4 inches of rain, total, in the last 2 seasons combined.  The fire danger here is high, but there are not very many trees, so the fires here can usually be easily and successfully fought near buildings, assuming people have cleared their brush.  Anyway, you are only required to clear the brush a certain number of feet from any structures, but we remove it much further out after I noticed a couple years ago when flying kites that the strings like to get tangled in the dry weeds and it gets awkward, so we get rid of them all now in case we ever want to fly a kite.  Plus it just looks good, and this is a high-end neighborhood.  Anyone on the AWE list, even the notorious Dave S., is always welcome to come by anytime and run your AWE devices, your RC planes, drones, etc., or just fly kites and have fun.  Also, plenty of runway length here for your ultralight, if so inclined. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12311 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Doug,

There is no controversy in modern aerospace over study of wingmills (or ornithopters, as the same physics run in reverse).

It was Cristiano Trein working at Kyoto University who the Forum first interacted with on the subject some five years ago, and Prof. Zhang and his team at NYC Zhang Lab who have been direct flapping-science contacts (lab visits). Many prestigious universities host such studies. UTexas AE was typical, with flapping studies popular starting in thee early '90s, and still a favorite topic.

Wingmills will continue to be a respected AE topic no matter what you think. The Record Stands, based on a mountain of evidence. Its you who have no authority to claim otherwise with emotional hysteria wholly unfit for a public forum. Never has anyone thought the sort of PR work Festo is doing is an engineering problem. No expert in automation expects Festo will neglect its core parts business to market a wingmill product. Giant soft wingmills will remain an open study in AWES Forum circles, just like the ST (as any progress occurs).

You really have targeted by name a long and still growing list of our talented friends for Professor Crackpot treatment, and consistently set the lowest imaginable Forum standard for engineering science discourse. I am sorry to have to reflect your unacceptable troll tactics back in your face, but nothing else seems to work (moderating you is too much work for the poor moderators),

daveS


On Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:09 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12312 From: dave santos Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes
Doug,

Its a misconception that we never did and still do not feed back electricity to the Texas grid as small producers. Many of our wind pioneers started small windfarms (by today's standard) and had to fight county-by-county the local power authorities, and quite a few then became some of the world's top wind farmers, by installed capacity.

Many of these pioneers ended up on the boards and staffs of these local power authorities. like our friend Michael Osborne, of Austin Energy. kPower's top consulting test engineer, John Borsheim, is a kPower team pioneer who to this day operates his own small solar farm for a small net income (he designed all his panels to track by a common drive-chain network).

A kPower's Austin land holding, we are over time still weaning off the grid. Our solar arrays are being augmented, and we just put up the first of two small wind towers. Austin Energy does notice when users offset load, so less new generation is needed. The meters run both ways for more and more folks, depending on daily rhythms. Austin is a leader in these trends. 

kFarm will therefore follow a well beaten path of starting with a trickle of new renewable electricity, with key wind power pioneers helpfully placed to encourage us,

daveS
On Thursday, April 3, 2014 6:01 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12313 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12314 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Ready to fly kite in nodes of sound waves?

JAPANESE SCIENTISTS LEVITATE, MOVE OBJECTS IN MID-AIR USING SOUND WAVES


Too much tension in a tether to a wing caught in the nodes of the waves will pull the wing out of capture.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12315 From: Mike Barnard Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica
All:

In the event it is of interest and the group wasn't already aware, CleanTechnica.com has been publishing updated versions of some of my AWES-related articles. As always, thank you for your significant comments and improvements on my initial blog postings of the material. Your input has informed and improved the material.


My apologies, but as a reminder I do not follow this forum and will not see any comments left on it. Please feel free to engage with me via email, my blog or via comments on the CleanTechnica articles for a wider audience.

Thank you again for assisting me to understand the AWES space more fully.

Cheers,
Mike

Senior Fellow - Wind, Energy and Policy Institute (energyandpolicy.org)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12316 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
My dear Friend, Doug,

I follow your dispute with DaveS regarding Festo-experiments with interest. I have only one problem with it. Reading your posts, one could think that everybody else is stupid except for you.

Well, you have enough reason to pipe down. Previously, it became obvious several times that you are not the possessor of omniscience but rather the reincarnation of Professor Ignorance, to use  a terminology similar to yours.

You say:


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12317 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

GaborD wrote: "I follow your dispute with DaveS regarding Festo-experiments with interest." For the main part the forum is an opposition between two useless concepts: one side by telling"to put more rotors to make more power" and repeating it 1000 times, as clever as "to put more wheels making your car working better" ; in the other side Giga-Super-Flapping as the biggest AWE winner being in fact able to produce only a single watt all 10 years. And one arguing from DougS: "All excepted me are newbies and crackpots" followed by DaveS: "What Doug failed to understand" followed by DougS (drivelling) ...The top level of dispute is a warrant for perpetual disputes rather than a real cooperation to analyse AWE.

 

PierreB    
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12318 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica
Mike, 
   Thank you for the links and your efforts. We did not have the articles yet on the forum table so tightly given.
How you may touch AWE fairly without immersing your search tools into AWE depth and breadth would be a severe challenge.   Want to speculate to some interesting ends? Then consider teasing Google [X] to support/buy/include the diverse find-and-test realm AWE so they may sooner find winning AWES; the M600 direction will have niche play, but truly greater gems will win broad play.
  ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12319 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: What does KiteLab stand for?
Pierre,

KiteLab Group stands for extensive comparative testing everything that is seriously proposed, and letting the data then drive a proper engineering down-select ("Fraunhofer Plan"). KiteLab does not stand for one a priori AWES idea, but for the diverse exploration of all ideas. KiteLab Group has tested more kinds of AWES than anybody else, including HAWT flygens. 

Flapping wings are better than you imply (as inspired by tacking sailing ships, insects, bats, birds, etc.) are just one idea studied and tested alongside many others (like SkyBows, FlipKites, looping foils, autogyros, etc, and someday even with the WindWheel, Makani M600, carousel, and ST). Flapping wing power should be referenced to LeBreque's UMaine data or Christiano Trein's Kyoto analysis. Your "one watt" power estimation is naive, unprincipled, and inaccurate. Topics like megascalable anchors, actuators and lifter kite arches are driven by the scaling law constraints and societal need. You seem to mock large-scale work beyond your apparent capability or understanding.

KiteLab Group is several locations worldwide, with a large loose circle of friends. KiteLab calls for all professional developers to create publicly testable prototypes, especially those making ambitious marketing claims. You and Doug are promoting your ideas for investment, without enough small-scale testing. Even the flapping wings you despise are beating your ideas, by compelling testing results (ultra-high power-to-weight).

The KiteLab way is for you to cultivate Dieppe kite culture as your allies for testing. Somehow you must prepare for cooperative flight testing with KiteLab and affilates (kPower, Kite Power Coop, KiteBot, Aerology Lab, etc. and eventually Fraunhofer, NASA, NREL, etc.) or fall behind,

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12320 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: US Navy SUPSALV
US Navy SUPSALV
water kite is to be kite-flown underwater to search for the ping of missing
Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. 
The SUPSALV is a water-kite wing that holds in its wing
instruments to detect the ping from aircraft black boxes. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12321 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Pierre:  I understand what you are saying and agree with how ridiculous these "debates" (?) may seem.  Yes it is ridiculous when you see someone consistently resisting any and every pertinent fact while posing as not o nly an expert in a subject that apparwently HAS no experts, but simultaneously posing as a master of ceremonies, a world patent office, the world authority on everything, etc.  On the real wind energy forum, "pet theories" are not allowed, and so many of such postings would be deleted, for the most part.  I was actually disappointed with that, since I believe it is instructive for people to see such "debunking" discussions as a way to keep everyone sharp and for newbies to see what types of ideas really work, as opposed to what kinds of ideas just sound good but are long disproven.  With time, one can see which ideas are inefffective, and which ideas result in products that work.  One can observe entire companies going in and out of business, all based on whether their designs actually work reliably to deliver consistent power, and which fall by the wayside, resulting in bankruptcies and failure.  Paying attention to the millions and millions of dollars wasted on false statements is instructive.  All I can say is, what I write is facts, and when I see people outright lying, such as claiming that the Festo fiasco is "just a demo" and "not a serious wind turbine" I feel the need to bring to  the table the quote FROM Festo, claiming that it works better than a regular turbine of comparable size.  With time, an astute reader might check up on such facts as offered, and slowly start to realize the people who tell the truth and can back that up with verifiable facts, as opposed to those who can be counted on to produce mostly emotional rants and raves making statements that are quickly and easily disproven by someone else showing references to the facts.  If you pay attention to such debates, you might pick up some actual, helpful fact.  On the real wind energy yahoo group, for example, today's posts point the "Kean turbine" http://www.keanwindturbines.com/
This machine has a typical newbie 100% solidity rotor, with the promoter spewing lie after lie:
1) claiming it utilizes newtonian physics for the first time
2) claiming that it captures 40% of the wind's power
3) claiming that 3-bladed turbines only capture 1% of the wind's power
Just as with the mis-statements of several posters on this forum, you're being exposed to 100% nonsense, and 100% wrong facts.  On the real wind forum, nobody has to bring up all these facts, because we all know them.  All anyone has to do is post "The Kean Turbine", everyone googles it, and everyone gets the joke.  On this forum, people are telling such jokes all day but nobody seems to realize they are jokes.  The people making sucg tatements on here, rather than laughing at the jokes, defend them as truth that, somehow, only they can understand are NOT jokes.  If you have a nonsense filter in your brain, the "debates" here might tune you into what is true and what is nonsense.  Otherwise, if nobody bere can discern facts from nonsense, perhaps it is a case of throwing "pearls before swine", in that no amount of good information can help anyoine to approach the challenge armed with facts, due to dilution by many times as many false statemsnts as facts.  It is for you  to decide who tells the truth and who spews nonsense.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12322 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: US Navy SUPSALV
Probable correction of first post in topic is needed for naming the device and not the general program. Here is the device intended: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12323 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Gabor: I stand by my statement that I am the only one on this forum who represents real wind energy as actually practiced.  I design and build turbines that run for years, making consistent, economical power, lowering electric bills.  That is a simple fact.  There are less than 200 people in total on this forum, and only a few who are active )posting regularly) and as far as I am aware, none builds actual wind turbines.  I see little evidence that most people on here even understand how they work, due to blatant violations of the simplest and most uncontested facts in wind energy being absent from the modes of thought presented here.  It;s not bragging to say I understand wind turbines.  It;s simply a fact.  On a real wind energy list, nobody wooud consider a statement of understanding how wind turbins operate to be bragging, it would just be a normal statement.  The only reason perhaos you interpret my statements of having basic knowledge of wind energy as a threat might be a) not having such knowledge yourself, and b) imagining that the battle is with people who state facts on the web, instead of a battle with the wind itself.  The facts i state are simply true accounts summarizing all that has been learned in the 3000-year battle with the actual wind.   Take what I say and let it be helpful, or ignore it and suffer the same battles and losses all over again, that were already fought and won, by not listening to the actual known facts.  Joe requested that we discuss facts and not descend into personal attacks.  A fact is a fact, and nonsense is nonsense.  Facts are helpful, and nonsense will take you off course, in some wrong direction, and I will stop there.  You do the math.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12324 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Festo is not trying to perpetrate a fantasy turbine scam. That is only Doug's uniquely paranoiac take.

The Festo dual wing generator is yet another cool demonstrator for an admirable children's education program called Bionic Learning Network-


Festo will continue as an industrial automation leader, and welcome early partner for AWE R&D.

Here is the main documentation of the Dual Wing demo, with credits for the talented engineering team, to put human faces behind Doug's latest "Professor Crackpot" public attack-

On Friday, April 4, 2014 9:20 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12325 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: US Navy SUPSALV
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12326 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Hi Doug,


I listened to Kean Wind's presentation . . . . I've heard many others like it . . .  . . and many of the inventors of had access to government research and development funding (EG: Magenn).

There is great merit in building, testing and demonstrating a scale-model prototype and comparing it to other competing technologies.

I am presently in the process of building and testing a scale model "areonautical" prototype, based on an offbeat theory . . . . . don't quite know the outcome until the testing gets further underway.

Perhaps you may be aware that at one time, the patent office required a working scale-model prototype as proof-of-concept . . . . time they went back to that old standard.


Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: dougselsam@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:20:10 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

 
Pierre:  I understand what you are saying and agree with how ridiculous these "debates" (?) may seem.  Yes it is ridiculous when you see someone consistently resisting any and every pertinent fact while posing as not o nly an expert in a subject that apparwently HAS no experts, but simultaneously posing as a master of ceremonies, a world patent office, the world authority on everything, etc.  On the real wind energy forum, "pet theories" are not allowed, and so many of such postings would be deleted, for the most part.  I was actually disappointed with that, since I believe it is instructive for people to see such "debunking" discussions as a way to keep everyone sharp and for newbies to see what types of ideas really work, as opposed to what kinds of ideas just sound good but are long disproven.  With time, one can see which ideas are inefffective, and which ideas result in products that work.  One can observe entire companies going in and out of business, all based on whether their designs actually work reliably to deliver consistent power, and which fall by the wayside, resulting in bankruptcies and failure.  Paying attention to the millions and millions of dollars wasted on false statements is instructive.  All I can say is, what I write is facts, and when I see people outright lying, such as claiming that the Festo fiasco is "just a demo" and "not a serious wind turbine" I feel the need to bring to  the table the quote FROM Festo, claiming that it works better than a regular turbine of comparable size.  With time, an astute reader might check up on such facts as offered, and slowly start to realize the people who tell the truth and can back that up with verifiable facts, as opposed to those who can be counted on to produce mostly emotional rants and raves making statements that are quickly and easily disproven by someone else showing references to the facts.  If you pay attention to such debates, you might pick up some actual, helpful fact.  On the real wind energy yahoo group, for example, today's posts point the "Kean turbine" http://www.keanwindturbines.com/
This machine has a typical newbie 100% solidity rotor, with the promoter spewing lie after lie:
1) claiming it utilizes newtonian physics for the first time
2) claiming that it captures 40% of the wind's power
3) claiming that 3-bladed turbines only capture 1% of the wind's power
Just as with the mis-statements of several posters on this forum, you're being exposed to 100% nonsense, and 100% wrong facts.  On the real wind forum, nobody has to bring up all these facts, because we all know them.  All anyone has to do is post "The Kean Turbine", everyone googles it, and everyone gets the joke.  On this forum, people are telling such jokes all day but nobody seems to realize they are jokes.  The people making sucg tatements on here, rather than laughing at the jokes, defend them as truth that, somehow, only they can understand are NOT jokes.  If you have a nonsense filter in your brain, the "debates" here might tune you into what is true and what is nonsense.  Otherwise, if nobody bere can discern facts from nonsense, perhaps it is a case of throwing "pearls before swine", in that no amount of good information can help anyoine to approach the challenge armed with facts, due to dilution by many times as many false statemsnts as facts.  It is for you  to decide who tells the truth and who spews nonsense.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12327 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Analogical Interlude: "Slomo"
"Gentleman and GentleLadies, we are ready to flow in AWE-filled Era K3"
or "Let's energize and serve by kite .." 
Analogical Interlude: "Slomo"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12328 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWES articles updated and on CleanTechnica
Thanks for posting here Mike.  Hats off to guys like you and Paul Gipe who communicate the current state of the art in wind energy to the masses, to help them understand the basics as known in today's practice.  We're talking about future wind energy though.  I skimmed your SkyWindPower article.  Personally I think they have a workable concept, generally speaking.  Adjustments would make it much more effective.  You do point out a lot of potential dealbreakers such as tether weight, height, and icing, but these factors disappear depending on scale and location.  Please understand, as a guy who designs and builds reliable wind turbines, with patents in the wind space, and an ongoing R & D effort, I don't feel comfortable spilling every thought I have, since I can easily disclose something patent-worthy later.  Let me just summarize though: Wind turbines want to fly, and they will.  Back in the 1980's many experts in the then-state-of-the-art expressed doubt that turbines could ever attain the sizes common today.  Today's science-fiction is tomorrow's (yawn) old news.  The tower can be thought of like training wheels on a bicycle.  Once wind energy gets beyond toddlerhood, it will be "riding a two-wheeler", getting the wind energy where it is best found: in the sky.  I am very confident of that.  This message powered by wind energy.  Oh, I forgot, (ahem) you won't be reading this... Oh well, does it matter?
:)
Doug Selsam
http://www.selsam.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12329 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
I'll just handle one wrong statement at a time: NO, physics and dragonfly wings do NOT work the same in reverse.  That is simply one more false statement.  They are NOT efficient in wind energy.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12330 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes
Sounds like one more wrong fact to me.  How many kWh have you put into the grid and under what program?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12331 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Thanks for your reply Harry.  You made 4 statements, and I'm trying to understand how they go together.  Starting with no knowledge of what has been learned, and building what has been built before and found lacking, seems like a poor course to choose, wouldn't you agree?  if someone states in the first minute of a presentation that "3-bladed wind turbines" get only 1% of the power in the wind, do you believe that?  If that is the starting point, where do you think that conversation is going?  You mentioned that you are pursuing and offbeat idea, as though your pursuit rationalizes every misguided effort that ignores known facts of the art.  I'd be happy for you to specifically run your "offbeat idea" by me.  I might be able to save you some time and effort, maybe even money.  I'm happy to offer facts, if and when anyone wants them.  I'll be holding my breath.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12332 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Hung Shunting
Hung Shunting
         Mostly review, however, consider the verticality by hanging tactic; and consider a drive line in a track to drive fixed-position generator or pump.   Shunting passively is one target. Smart controls by robot via sensors in a path. Multiple hung units on a main tether set is up; and farming of units is available for choice. The shunting wing could be short or very tall with high aspect ratio.  The verticality permits full traverse-to-wind positioning during lateral flying.   The lifter group in some embodiments may remain dominantly stable in position or a choice could be made to have lifter group also shunt; there are trades in either case.  KiteLab, Ilwaco has considerable experience in various arrangements of shunting wingmills or tensed wings that shunt passively. I have not asked DaveS on whether or not he has explored the drop-down hanging-power-off scheme suggested in this drawing presently shared here.    Soon, I'll put up another drawing of a alternative scheme that is somewhat related to this topic. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12333 From: dougselsam Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting
Joe, what is "shunting"?  Do you mean "shuttling"?  Please forgive me for being confused by the terminology.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12334 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting
Thanks, DougS, for the pause.   Three things: 
1. The play space somewhat follows DaveS where my understanding was he used the term "shunting". 
2. Urban dictionary seems to fit when focus is on the hung wing.

shunt (shŭnt) n 1 The act or process of turning aside
or moving to alternate position.

 
3. If you see the ground track holding a guiding shuttle device to guide the constrained rope drive that goes to the generator, then "shuttle" might come to someone's mind. 

Perhaps the affair could be captured with shuttling, as well.   The device when acting will ignore our terms : ), I'm sure!   
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12335 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Shunting
As pledged, an alternative in this play space: 
Here: Fixed-position generator (perhaps movable upon conditions) with shunting driving tip of horizontal lever or crank arm to drive generator or flywheel or pump using two-way-to-one-way at gen when arranged. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12336 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Off-beat idea(Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)
Hi Doug,


Thanks for your offer. I am able to build a scale model prototype at very low cost to myself.

I make NO fancy claims as the to capability of the concept.

If I build it and it fails to deliver, then that has been a learning experience.


Regards,

Harry

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: dougselsam@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:31:13 -0700
Subject: RE: [AWES] Re: Festo - DualWingGenerator (Deutsch) (P. Crackpot)

 
Thanks for your reply Harry.  You made 4 statements, and I'm trying to understand how they go together.  Starting with no knowledge of what has been learned, and building what has been built before and found lacking, seems like a poor course to choose, wouldn't you agree?  if someone states in the first minute of a presentation that "3-bladed wind turbines" get only 1% of the power in the wind, do you believe that?  If that is the starting point, where do you think that conversation is going?  You mentioned that you are pursuing and offbeat idea, as though your pursuit rationalizes every misguided effort that ignores known facts of the art.  I'd be happy for you to specifically run your "offbeat idea" by me.  I might be able to save you some time and effort, maybe even money.  I'm happy to offer facts, if and when anyone wants them.  I'll be holding my breath.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12337 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Hung Rotating Ring
Hung Rotating Ring
        Groundgen :: eGen, pump, flywheel, grinder, tool, etc. 
Notice that the ring is almost all wing (tiny top segment and tiny bottom segment of loop or ring is not much of "wing" nature as such segments are formed to let the hanging occur above and the generator shafting below, else the rest of the left loop or ring and the right loop or ring are flying-rotating flipwinging. Include SkyBow but go to robust ribbed airfoiled semi-rag long ribbon wing and the like. The upper universal joints could be replaced with swivels, but through-put torque may serve to integrate left and right works. Note that the rotation is all one way, but such results in a left-side arching flight and a right-side arching flight both away from the main system lifting tether. Note the drop hanging of the turbine that allows the flight arches to stay full-face traverse to the wind. Note that the lower universal joints connect in some embodiments to a hard generator shaft which shaft would also share the one-direction rotation. Generator or the like could be moved above, if needed, depending on the site and needs and scale of operation.   The shown art is not to be confused by Darrieus or Savonius; but rather just flipwing or ever pitching winging. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12338 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Hung Rotating Ring
I meant also to state that the groundgen position could be move about the ground space as needed.
~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12339 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Fencing and/or Tenting
This topic thread invites discussion about fencing and/or tenting in AWES world. Fences near the ground or fences in the sky are game here. Small tents or large tents; tents on ground or ship or sea or aerialized. 
== Fences built using kite systems as tools. 
== Fences with kite systems as foundation for the structure of the aerial or near-ground fencing. Temporary or long-term fencing. 
== Purposes of fencing around AWES operations.
Lic: CC BY NC SA by kPower       for fencing and tenting by kite systems.
To start: 
There are very many ways to form ground-region or aerial fences using kite systems. Want a fence for one of thousands of purposes? Explore how kite systems might serve. 
Here is a start of a simple stable downwind fence arrangement: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12340 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Shade
Shade often has value. Shading the sun's rays. This topic thread invites focus on how to provide shade from the sun's rays by use of kite systems. Shade may be removed and set again; cycles of shading may occur on purpose; some may want explore mining the on/off of such for energy production; that could be a separate topic heading.   The asides of "why shade" is not the core of this topic; rather, the "how to" of making shade occur by use of kite systems.  There may be niche shade applications where kite-system-provided shade meets the need nicely. In the solar energy industry there are some companies specializing in providing shade while generating electricity with solar-panel arrangements; such clues to one direction for kite-systems shading; we have mentioned this several times in forum: wing surfaces with PV.   But this topic thread invides robust shade making with or without secondary or tertiary services in solutions. We have a topic thread on fences and/or tents; there will sometimes be shade made by the fences and tents that may be discussed in those topic threads; some folding into this topic thus might be seen in the full run of this discussion. What are the challenges of "shade" and those when kite systems provide the solution?  How much energy might be saved by shading a region or space or building or activity ... by kite system application? 
Etc.   No rush.  Return to "Shade" topic thread when you have a shady note. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12341 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes
Doug,

Feeding the grid is new to me personally. My experience is only with off-grid living, mostly with solar, but for several years at least (Biosquat eco-village). It will be exciting to perhaps be one of the first to feed a grid with kites, if AWE is the biggest thing ever.

The pioneers in Texas who grew the wind industry are role models for AWE. Its pretty clear you have not yet fed grids on such a scale either. The race is only starting, so get ready,

daveS


On Friday, April 4, 2014 11:15 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12342 From: Harry Valentine Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: Ready to fly kite in nodes of sound waves?
People experimenting with Nikola Tesla's methodologies have caused metallic objects to levitate . . . fly upward and hit the ceiling . . . inside the house next door . . . and scared the bejeezuz out of the occupants.

Also heard a story of a meditating Yogi who was apparently able to "levitate" himself.

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:20:02 -0700
Subject: [AWES] Ready to fly kite in nodes of sound waves?

 

JAPANESE SCIENTISTS LEVITATE, MOVE OBJECTS IN MID-AIR USING SOUND WAVES


Too much tension in a tether to a wing caught in the nodes of the waves will pull the wing out of capture.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12343 From: dave santos Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Reversible Dynamics (passive and active flapping)

Doug is unaware that wing physics are dominated by mostly reversible dynamics; thus fluid rotors can drive or be driven and one can design a WECS along the reversed principles of a dragonfly. While there are subtle irreversible aspects to physics, dynamic reversibility of time and state are quite common.


Doug also seems unduly scornful of impressive efficiencies possible with biologically evolved or technically advanced shunting and tacking wings, and disregards successful models* that delight Festo's child-audience. This is evidence of an anti-academic mindset he claims to be unaware of.


* windward tacking or shunting sailboats can be seen as similarity cases, with time-reversal, to simplified dragonfly dynamics (with keel and rudder opposed to jib and main sail).
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12344 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: AWE Encampment Changes

"Its pretty clear you have not yet fed grids on such a scale either." Match between DaveS and DougS: DaveS wins the competition for "having the last word". Who wins the competition to have produced most watts last year?

PierreB