Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES12087to12136 Page 138 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12087 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Two stage tri-tether, levelling the playing-field

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12088 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12089 From: Rod Read Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12090 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12091 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12092 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12093 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12094 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12095 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12096 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12097 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12098 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12099 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12100 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12101 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12102 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Industry

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12103 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12104 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12105 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12106 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Glider Snatch Launch (alternative kite launch model)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12107 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12108 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: System Enables Unmanned Aircraft to Detect Another in Flight --- Det

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12109 From: Harry Valentine Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12110 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12111 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12112 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12113 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12114 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Indu

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12115 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12116 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12117 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Indu

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12118 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12119 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool || Canonical Savonius rotor

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12120 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12121 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12122 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12123 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12124 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12125 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12126 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12127 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12128 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12129 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12130 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12131 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Fw: Best AWE Beta-Site (Necker Island)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12132 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12133 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12134 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12135 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Laddermill => SuperTurbine(R), Inventive steps

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12136 From: dougselsam Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12087 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Two stage tri-tether, levelling the playing-field
Rod,

In effect, the anchor-pulley triangle defines two stages of the tri-tether, the upper to the kite and the ground part to the work-cell. Your version is likely different, and Mile's Loyd's three-phase tri-tether is really clever. There is also a classic airship mooring patent to round-out our current tri-tether case-base. We do presume the "tri" concepts to extend to added phases, for many secondary advantages (ie. one can make a nice minimal parachute with three lines, but a few more is safer).

Three is enough, if properly tuned. The early KiteLab Ilwaco experiments had variable leads to relax the up-wind pulley(s) to tilt the string tripod downwind. This time around, the upper lines are being modulated*, so as to keep the triangle centered and set closely on the short thick UHMWPE sections at the fixed pulleys (for life-cycle bending and anti-chafing performance). All lines that do not pass thru pulleys can be much thinner. Total moving mass is reduced as well.

Expect to next see a tri-tether electrical charging driven by the small looping foil Ed posted video of,

daveS


* May even be fixed-length tether segments reset by moving larks-head knots around the triangle, as a minimalist test method.


On Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:58 AM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12088 From: dave santos Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Actuating a GW scale unit kitefarm based on COTS industrial ground equipment is the open-AWE proposal consistently offered here. We looked at strand-jacks as a design solution for long-throw actuation, but conventional megascale cylinders can still have enough throw for many processes (like giant kite-killers). Industrial crane winches are another magascale servo option (for another post).

Bosch-Rexroth is a leading supplier of industrial cylinders, and the following technical overview provides a good contrast with the Makani M600 actuation basis (small aviation-rated servos). Economy-of-scale and heavy industrial reliability apply-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12089 From: Rod Read Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

Assuming that the lifter doesn’t fold and drop before the skybow could act as the new tether.

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12090 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry
Oh I see.  Thanks Joe.  It;s all coming back to me. (What happened?  Where am I?)  Duh.  Now I remember why they used the term helicopter: vertical, powered takeoff of their kite-plane, in heck-of-a-lopter mode.  Sorry for the confusion.  :)  I was worried that they were starting to figure out how to (really) do AWE!  OK so, they are using propellers to act like a "helicopter" (sort of), so can we call it a "propelicopter"?  Google "Propelicopter", and see where it leads.  Where do all roads lead?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12091 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry
Dave S. Thanks to you and Joe for clarifying. I'm sorry, I had completely forgotten that they had taken the liberty of calling vertical takeoff for a regular electric model airplane, "helicopter" mode.  Now I remember, they mislabeled their vertical flight as "helicopter".   So I guess, as the airplane loops, it turns from an airplane, to a helicopter, and back, once with every rotation, right?  Next time you see aerobatics, watch carefully as the airplanes turn into helicopters and back into airplanes every time they go vertical then dive.  I am so forgetful sometimes.  (Why could that be?)  Since you are the aviation expert, can you tell me what angle the official transition from airplane to "helicopter" takes place?  (Or is it really just an electric model airplane the whole time and the word "helicopter" was not appropriate)?

It is NOT helicopter mode, really, it's just an airplane with enough power that it can take off vertically.  Not the first airplane that can go straight up.  Any airplane with a higher thrust than its weight can do that.  (I know, I know, I am ignorant of "aviation", right?  (Even though I hang out at airports for fun). 

What it really is, is a multirotor.  That's the modern name for electric flying drones using multiple, non-pitched propellers.  I happen to own the domain "multirotor.com".  I guess that bolsters your theory that I am ignorant of all these aviation developments.  That's an inaccurate theme you have going there, by the way.  Why do people keep offering me tens of thousands of dollars for the domain?  I guess it's because in my extreme ignorance, I registered the domain before anyone else.  What luck!

I also, long ago, actually NAMED this new class of flying vehicles that get lift from propellers.  They are called "Propelicopters".  I happen to also own the domain "propelicopter.com", another example of my aviation ignorance that you can archive.  (A domain registration is way cheaper than a patent.)
:)
Doug
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12092 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
just use the skybow as the tether from the beginning
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12093 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Rod,

The slack kite might just as well retension and fly. A delta would glide, a sled would likely reinflate, and a modern parafoil with valve inlets would not promptly collapse. The worst case, runaway, would be prevented. Continuing to fly after a partial tether loss is not normally essential..

We lost a small single-line parafoil in high wind last week at the Encampment. If it had been on two lines, we would still have it. As we s-l-o-w-l-y plan high-altitude flights, multi-lines are looking attractive to eliminate the historical risk of runaway in such experiments. MarioM's doctrine is sound,

daveS


On Saturday, March 22, 2014 5:34 AM, Rod Read <rod.read@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12094 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Review request open on glossary entry
Doug,

This not a redefinition of "helicopter", but the standard definition: Wikipedia- "helicopter is a type of rotorcraft in which lift and thrust are supplied by rotors. This allows the helicopter to take off and land vertically, to hover, and to fly forward, backward, and laterally..."

We have never redefined "helicopter" or "kite" or any other standard aviation term on the Forum. Rather, its you who simply are unaware of many precise aviation definitions, and your undue bluster about us redefining such terms is a failed distraction from your willful technical ignorance. You really did not know that Makani has for five years advocated a helicopter-kiteplane hybrid that launches and lands as a true helicopter,

daveS




On Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:09 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12095 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Doug suggests, "just use the skybow as the tether from the beginning"


Unfortunately, the SkyBow depowers and even stops if it is not stretched crosswind enough, and would also only produce downforce (or lopsided side-force). Professor Milanese's runaway resistance effect is also lost by reverting to one tether. You have a SkyBow and Pilot-Delta, and can verify these facts yourself.

It may be possible to find single-line lifter SkyBow modes that marginally work, like by using a larger high-angle lifter, but the prediction of lower performance still applies.

The other direction is more promising; to make both tethers SkyBows, with the pilot-kite in the center of a larger arch. More power and easier launching would result.




On , dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12096 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Wow you are really on a roll now.  GigaWatt.  Pretty impressive.  What an accomplishment.  Thanks for "consistently offering" that to the world.  Thanks for such incredible solutions, so well-presented, so effective.  We owe you, bigtime.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12097 From: dougselsam Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises
No I do not remember METAR.  I don't even care!  Whats the difference if you have nothing to fly and generate economical power with?  But it reminds me of RETARD. Does it stand for "ME TOO RETARD"?  Is it to identify a "team" as just one more million-dollar misstep?  Is that what it stands for?  Is it more significant than "whale bumps"?   DO you think pulling acronyms like that out of your ass, that you barely understand anyway, and will probably never use, is impressive in some way?  Sounds like one more distraction that will make sure you never get anything going, to me.  Congratulations on your annual comprehension of a term actually used in wind energy.  We're up to 3.  At this rate, in 100 years, you'll be up to speed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12098 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Doug,

You are mocking an extended group of folks in the GW AWE club, not just me.

Its true that open-AWE and the AWES Forum is the epicenter of GW unit-scale thinking. Not only do we review everything in that category, but we are the leading generator of the enabling ideas, and do most of the designing and scale-model testing.

You only just learned exactly what a helicopter is, so please take due care to understand the basics of GW unit AWE before attempting a useful critique. We will in fact be using the largest COTS hydraulic cylinders for actuators, at least at first,

daveS






On Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:42 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12099 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Tether systems saturated with flipwing includes the SkyBow as an examle. DaveS' recalling strong lifter servants recalls for me the patent by Fry and Wise. Here is a clip of flipwing saturated tethering: 
 US4084102  Filed in 1976. 
Comment: Flipwing-saturated tether held by system of lifter wings. Style of flipwing used in the tether system would be up to the designer; one might choose SkyBow to be in the mix. Canted rotors could also saturate the tether. In later decades after Fry and Wise, we see efforts to use such a system of lifters and rotating wings on main tether. DaveS reminds us of the kite-stop or kite-kill lines for safety relative to fugitive or breakaway system. ~ JoeF  22Mar2014
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12100 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises
METAR has been around for almost fifty years. My father first taught me how to read them off the primitive teletypes in the airports of the day (late 60s). METAR stands for METorological Aviation Reporting (or something close). You guess wrong that techies only "barely understand" domain acronyms. I have been advocating a dedicated METAR parser for Kite Farms for a couple of years now. A likely first demo will be a kite array that self-kills ahead of a front or local storm (but does not kill by a false estimation). This is exciting stuff to an aerospace geek.

While a wind turbine can sit unattended in storms, pilots pay close attention to METAR data. Anyone who intends to operate AWES within the FAA FARs framework will apply METAR (raw or parsed, with or without post-processing like realtime GUIs or historical windroses).

Who should care that you do not care about technical essentials, except to create undue emotional distraction? You.


On Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:50 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12101 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Joe,

The term "flipwing" is too vague to apply to a Savonius rotor. The KiteLab FlipWing is a flapper, and the UMaine Flexor is a Darrieus on its side; neither is a Savonius. The SkyBow is more Savonius-like, but is also theorized to be doing DS backflips in the surface gradient, rather than rely on pure Magnus-effect, and its obviously an Archimedes screw at each end (normal setting)

Better to not apply a general term yet for all these wing rotor types that can be strung on a tether,

daveS




On Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:58 AM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com wrote:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12102 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Industry
Doug- 

Modern Wind Roses arose in aviation as a design tool to layout runways. Like many other modern wind power methods, wind roses are a borrowing from aviation. Its you who seems slow to learn new words, not the aerospace types.

I recall looking up aviation wind roses for wind power assessment in the 70's, in association with Michael Osborne and his circle, who pioneered Texas wind farms, and are the movers behind Texas currently being number one in wind. Mike is the strict gatekeeper at Austin Energy for AWE investment (AE is monitoring AWE for major adoption as it matures, but granted kPower a token 30k research grant).

daveS
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12103 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
  • == Those "skilled in the arts" would include variations on a basic inventive scheme.

    We have covered the challenge of distinguishing flipwings versus Savonius and Darrieus rotors. We had recognized in earlier discussions that a flipwing might flip and continue the flipwing in one direction repeatedly or continue flipping in reversals of directions depending on how the pitching was handled and followed.   The open gaps of Savonius and the extreme separate gaps of the Darrieus wing elements put them apart from "flipwing", more so regarding Darrieus. Without slots there is a class of rotary flipwings that were known before Fry and Wise. The SkyBow is an ultra-high-aspect-ratio flipwing using tensional rotation axis observed at some time in history when tapes were presented to the wind broadside.   Segments in the spirit of Fry and Wise may be SkyBow or canted bladed rotors where the canted angle could even permit non-canted fastening of common rotor blades while allowing the centenary of the tether to give autorotation (the art of DougS seems to be reliving the basic teaching rehearsed in Fry and Wise; see the details of the patent; and of the very many others citing Fry and Wise, the list seems not to include Selsam; was there a neglect to see Fry and Wise?). If the rotor rotates on the tether or the tether itself, then it seems Fry and Wise gave a dated teaching applicable, though they were not the first for such. Clearly they rehearsed multirotor, tube-tether for torque for driving groundgen; it is difficult to see any inventive step in the later Selsam Serpent beyond what Fry and Wise taught, but we hold out for full study and discussion.

    So, it is easy to refer to Fry and Wise for having the tether saturated with alternate rotors such the SkyBow and other rotary flipwings without confusing Savonius or Darrieus in the mix.  I brought in the discussion on SkyBow the leading of Fry and Wise without forgetting the distinctions regarding flipwings, Savonius, and Darrieus. Some "preferred" embodiment does not set aside non-preferred embodiments. 

    And we certainly do not forget the flipwings that have long strokes between non-full turning flips that have been providing a branch of kite motors by DaveS in KiteLab.  These too may be explored in tether training whilst using some lead from Fry and Wise.


  • When Fry and Wise presented a "preferred" embodiment, they did not relinquish the optional space of other rotors; and so, one skilled in the arts may refer to the taught arrangements while carrying optional rotors other than the "preferred" embodiment. A patent cannot step through all the embodiments that are supported by the essence and spirit of the teaching.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12104 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
catenary
(not centenary)
Thanks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12105 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
We agree to keep all rotors in play here, and only disagree if a canonical Savonius is classed as a flipwing, which has no precise meaning.

The shocking statement just clipped from the Fry and Wise patent is the claim for the airborne drive-shaft with multi-rotors. I had thought Doug's patent was at least first in this claim, though pessimistic about the scaling potential in any case.


On Saturday, March 22, 2014 12:44 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12106 From: dave santos Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Glider Snatch Launch (alternative kite launch model)
There are just a handful of validated kite or glider launch methods, so finding a novel or lost method is of great interest. Historical gider-snatching was one such lost case (to us) and could be replicated by powered UAS snatching aloft kite-gliders for AWE duty.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12107 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Another spelling correction, please:
The typo let the "W." get the better of me.  Please respect the correct spelling of the Austin, Texas, inventor as Henry W. Hise.


Notice that the patent publication had some spelling errors corrected by formal appended documents; the published patent had the errors; the correcting documents are to reflect back on the patent. 
     Agreed, DaveS, we keep the Savonius as a complex of two wings set specially for a special interaction canonically defined in Savonius' filing of 1924: 

US1697574  
Rotor adapted to be driven by wind or flowing water

  • The rotor canonically described by Savonius Sigurd Johannes has two wings interacting
    with a net rotation about an axis traverse to the wind. The axis itself may be oriented
    at any angle in a plane that is approximately perpendicular to the wind. Hence the rotor
    arrangement is not just "wing" and thus not a flipwing.  Caution is recommended to note
    that there are "two" vanes with "inner" edges; the caution relates to the "S" mentioned
    where such could tease forgetting the "two" parts with "inner" edges.  Flipwings are one airfoil
    without the "segmental space" of the Savonius.
    Here is a clip from his filing in 1925 (though in Finland in 1924) that gives a description
    of the rotor he had in focus: 
~ JoeF
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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12108 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: System Enables Unmanned Aircraft to Detect Another in Flight --- Det
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12109 From: Harry Valentine Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Many decades ago, the US Patent Office required that inventors build a working scale model of their technology . . . . . . that approach ensured that only workable technology were patented.


Harry


To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 22:06:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [AWES] Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool

 
Another spelling correction, please:
The typo let the "W." get the better of me.  Please respect the correct spelling of the Austin, Texas, inventor as Henry W. Hise.


Notice that the patent publication had some spelling errors corrected by formal appended documents; the published patent had the errors; the correcting documents are to reflect back on the patent. 
     Agreed, DaveS, we keep the Savonius as a complex of two wings set specially for a special interaction canonically defined in Savonius' filing of 1924: 
US1697574  
Rotor adapted to be driven by wind or flowing water
  • The rotor canonically described by Savonius Sigurd Johannes has two wings interacting
    with a net rotation about an axis traverse to the wind. The axis itself may be oriented
    at any angle in a plane that is approximately perpendicular to the wind. Hence the rotor
    arrangement is not just "wing" and thus not a flipwing.  Caution is recommended to note
    that there are "two" vanes with "inner" edges; the caution relates to the "S" mentioned
    where such could tease forgetting the "two" parts with "inner" edges.  Flipwings are one airfoil
    without the "segmental space" of the Savonius.
    Here is a clip from his filing in 1925 (though in Finland in 1924) that gives a description
    of the rotor he had in focus: 
~ JoeF
---In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12110 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Dave S.
Yes I mock all "teams" purporting to pursue AWE.  You noticed that eh?  Every single one of them.  Every PhD-powered foray into ignorance.  I wasn't making fun at first, though I could see the warning signs.  By now though, you have to see the unmistakeable writing on the wall.  Pretty much nobody is making any progress.  The methods being pursued are, for the most part, not panning out.  Nobody's putting a single Watt into the grid, let alone MegaWatts.  At this moment, I can almost guarantee there is not a single airborne wind Watt being generated anywhere in the world.  When was the first AWE "conference", 6 years ago?   If nothing else, one has to appreciate the humor..   Yup by the time of that 2010 Conference at Stanford, I saw the writing on the wall.  The biggest names, yet nobody still having a clue what they were doing, big plans to waste lots of money accomplishing nothing.  Especially when we've been barraged with "credentialitis", where we're supposed to substitute "impressive titles" and involvement of "large corporations" or "impressive-sounding mult-letter agencies" for progress.  I told you ahead of time these parties would do NOTHING and so far this has come to be true.  It's all a big deja-vu for wind energy people who see dumb designs, or more just dumb ideas that are seldom built, come and go, every year.  This field is full of idiots, you foremost among them.  "Professor Crackpot" is always there, always the loudest voice in the room, yet never making a difference.  You are making zero progress, zero difference.
Which team is most successful so far?  I see only McCarney (previously) doing ANYTHING meaningful, and we have not heard from them in over a year.  Joe, want some feedback on them using a freakin' helicopter?  They are not using a helicopter, it's an airplane with extra power, briefly taking off vertically, and let's stop wasting time talking nonsense, M'Kay?  There, that's my comment.  Any questions?
How many years of "knowing what they're doing" by all these impressive-sounding "teams" has resulted in exactly what progress?  How many years of such untargeted misapplication of resources do you think will result in a working, useful, economical system?  Dave S. you are all talk all the time and all your talk means nothing.  Endless blather about nothing.  Go take a break and enjoy a TACO.  It does not matter how many acronyms you pull from where the sun doesn't shine.  Acronyms are not progress.  Your talk is not progress,  It is just what it is, all talk.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12111 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Harry,

The thinking was that many valid inventive leaps are beyond practical demonstration at the time of invention. The inventor might be too poor to create a prototype or the application too out of reach (recalling Arthur C. Clarke's geosynchonous satellite idea). There was also the admin problem of how to store indefinitely so much bric-a-brac.

The modern patent system has evolved into a new sort of beast altogether, for better and worse, Anyone can file junk, and some investment pros are increasingly disregarding patents (like on Shark Tank). These days, one can launch an infringing product, make a fortune, and disappear long before any effective patent enforcement reaches court. 

Patents are becoming more like standard corporate poker-chips than a specifiallly effective legal protection or threat. Paradoxically, Net search has become so powerful that patented art is a fine adjunct to open-source R&D, without having to pay-to-play. AWE is at the fore of these trends,

daveS

PS We should start new subject threads when the subject changes, but I got lazy here. There is news pending about AWE IP, for another thread.


On Sunday, March 23, 2014 7:51 AM, Harry Valentine <harrycv@hotmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12112 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises
You worrying about every agency, every acronym, with no workable configuration even in sight, is like somebody with a pile of iron-ore worrying about what color auto paint to use on the car they "are going to build" as soon as they "make the metal" from the ore.  You can't do a good job painting a car until you have done the bodywork, and long before the bodywork, you need to at least have a car, and before you have a car, you need a workable concept for a car.  Yet, your main concerns are literally what color to paint things, without even a promising concept.   Makes no sense.  Good luck.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12113 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

DougS,

 

You wrote 1000 times the same post. By arguing against DaveS you loss by the fact of arguing, even right arguing. Instead one time more please can you provide some data about flexible ST, allowing to have an idea about scalability for a single flexible rope, before testing other possibilities. Note I disagree with your crackpotism concerning universities involved in AWE which is a field for searchers before being or rather being not an economically viable way to generate wind energy.

 

PierreB


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12114 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Indu
Great DaveS. - keep bragging about your advanced knowledge.  I'm just so impressed.  But doesn't a claim of so much knowledge make your lack of progress all the more disappointing?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12115 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Fry is super-old news Joe.  Rather than pretending this is new information, let's acknowledge that these ideas have been around for decades.  SuperTurbine(R) was developed after these, and to be patented, required showing how it was different than what came before.  That reasoning is also ancient history at this point.  Those who know, know and the rest, as usual, don't.  This conversation of "flapper", "flipwing", and "Savonius" etc. are just repeats of past mistakes.  RThe conversation has devolved to the point that only proven losing concepts are even being discussed most of the time.  This is literally on the order of a Monkey at the typewriter, except restricted to only typing words naming concepts proven ineffective in wind energy for decades.  These conversations are old news, and are like idiot squared.  Someone just pointed out to me that I am wasting my time at this moment.  Agreed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12116 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Pierre B.:
You guys keep talking about a single rope, scaling, blah blah blah, as though you are disproving something.  It is not my problem to solve every half-thought-through word-puzzleimagined by people who can't even have a clear thought, let alone express it.   Can you think of 10 easy ways to do AWE?  Do we see pictures of easy ways to do AWE every day that nobody bothers to even try?  Yes.  We see workable ideas all the time.  You don;t seem to even recognize them when they appear.   I can't take the rest of my life trying to explain things to everyone under the sun when the question in the first place makes no sense to me. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12117 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Modern Wind Roses emerged from Aviation (not the Wind Power Indu
Doug,

Rather than "bragging", this subject was to correct on the record another of your factual misrepresentations. The fact that wind roses arose from aviation, and not wind power, does in fact correlate to aviation-based expertise being the driving force behind progress in AWE.

I am thrilled at the daily progress of AWE based on "advanced knowledge". To me, AWE is still fundamentally a Quest for Knowledge that only later can become incredibly practical.

Our AWE glass is not empty, as you seem to claim*, but overflowing with wonder; there is no "disappointment" to all of us working in wonder,

daveS


* For example, you see "Professor Crackpots" "everywhere", but seem unable to see all the great academic-intellectual engineering-science talents active in AWE.








On Sunday, March 23, 2014 9:03 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12118 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
You said:
"The thinking was that many valid inventive leaps are beyond practical demonstration at the time of invention. The inventor might be too poor to create a prototype or the application too out of reach (recalling Arthur C. Clarke's geosynchonous satellite idea)."
More nonsense from Dave S.: Patents for things in outer space are not allowed, nor enforceable.
Airborne wind energy is passe now.  The new thrust is wind turbines in outer space.  Look it up.  Professor Crackpot has left the launchpad, and is now in orbit.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12119 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool || Canonical Savonius rotor
The prior post on topic looking at the clip of Savonius defining his canonical rotor, the image was missing. Here is another effort to record the clipped image for the forum record and discussion: 

                                                     Sigurd Johannes Savonius
===========================================================

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12120 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units

DougS,

 

From Paul Gipe's website:

"In general, I follow the advice of Professor Doktor Robert Gasch of TU-Berlin. His advice, proven wise time and time again, is “don’t pay any attention to it until they have

  • Built it,
  • Tested it, and
  • Published the results."

I do not agree it since I pay some attention to ST.

 

PierreB



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12121 From: Rod Read Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Doug,
I've sussed the secret ways to do AWE which you have oddly never got round to sharing.
Problem is,
Troll activated, Troll control, Troll steer AWE all relies on having a Troll under an arch. And trolls are too greedy and socially awkward. To not live up to their own wildest dreams would be too embarrassing.

Come on 
I can't take the rest of my life trying to explain things to everyone under the sun when the question in the first place makes no sense to me. 
Not even ten seconds it seems.
Why is your email answering a question you don't understand? Waste of everyone's time.
Stop doing that please.

The question this forum is focussed on is how to best develop AWE.

The question of what term I use to describe a sociopathic time waster... always ends up in language unsuitable for an online public forum

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12122 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
DougS,
1. Fry and Hise is in public domain; the gift is "old" gift brought in current review.
2. It is a fresh topic deserving a new topic thread to examine what you might have invented that was not given already by Fry and Hise.

Starting:

Fry and Hise were aware of non-clutching attachment of rotors on tether shafting. During their awareness they offered teaching on segmental clutching to respond to potential damaging torque difference.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12123 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Open AWES Servo Selection for Megascale Kite Units
Rod:
Come up with something that works, or you are a "sociopathic time-waster."
Same with all the big "teams" with their big budgets and zero results.
Dave. S. and Pierre keep going on about scaling and a rope.  You;re right, why should i take 10 seconds to try and soothe the agitated mental state of a Dave S. or Pierre who cannot express himself in English very well (though far better than my French).  They mention torque over a rope, scaling, whatever.  They have no idea what they're doing, and I'm supposed to stop and figure out what they're even talking about?  Why?  They are nuts anyway.  You are sorta nuts too, I've noticed.  Lots of loose ends, just no solid connections.  I can't discern exactly what these nutcases' concern is, but using specifically one rope to transmit torque is not something I spend a lot of time promoting or thinking about, it's just one possibility of many, which has been shown to at least work in a limited capacity, and it was just a simple way to do a cheap and easy demo with a "driveshaft" that cost 3 bucks.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12124 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises
Doug,

No one but you "worries" about aviation acronyms. I learned METAR ages ago and moved on. It took you to make a botch of it.

Acronyms are used in all branches of science and engineering merely to compress the length of technical text. Next time you fly, consider how many acronyms it took to create the airplane, without you to find fault,

daveS

PS The Makani architecture is a true hybrid helicopter-kiteplane. If an aerospace engineer uses or encounters either term by itself, the meaning is easily understood in context. You will not get away with redefining helicopter to hide your confusion. In fact, the Makani AWES must spend considerable time hovering, climbing and descending in helicopter-mode, and has no capability to take-off like an airplane.




On Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:00 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12125 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
So what?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12126 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
DougS, 
        Patents for things made on earth that are perhaps used in outer space are valid matter for patents; the protection respects the making of the subject matter in earth factories.

~ JoeF 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12127 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: SkyBow Multi Rotary Tool
Doug,

You make so many factual errors, its burdensome to correct them. Of course patents do apply to space tech-



On Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:03 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12128 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
What inventive claim in Superturbine (R) goes beyond Fry and Hise?
To discern, the claims one by one in Superturbine patents would need to be examined relative to art prior to the claims.  Selsam's patent below reference Fry and Hise as well as others. 

One view of the claims might begin in the path:

Discussion?  Pick a claim and examine the claim. See if the claim is living within prior art or not. See if the claim is or is not held by the capture of what "those skilled in the arts" would see prior to the claim in focus.  The document that comes in view states "43 claims" and so there would be considerable work to do to see which claims have novelty or inventive stepping beyond the body of prior art.   It would be neat to become fully clear on what may or may not be valid claim. The work to have in hand such "neat" asset may vary from one researcher to another.  DougS, you may or may not spend energy on this topic thread. Careful stepping is anticipated. 
Best, 
~ JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12129 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
Regarding Fry and Hise, Doug asked: "So what?"

Fry and Hise anticipated the core invention claimed in the ST patent (airborne drive-shaft). The ST patent seems to have omitted citing Fry and Hise. I directly publically experimented with HAWT rotors on drive shafts as "rotating towers" starting around 1990. All this was long before you came along. Then there are the old Dutch precedents, Fitch, etc..

Given your years of exaggerated self-promotion as the Forum troll, its rather striking to finally see nothing in the ST patent that is not prior art, even within the narrower patent world.

So please answer Joe: What exact inventive claims are you making in AWE, as your creative contribution?


On Sunday, March 23, 2014 10:31 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12130 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
JoeF,

I defer to your finding of an ST Fry-Hise patent citation. My Goolge-Patents glimpse of Fry-Hise forward-citations overlooked the ST citation,

daveS


On Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:01 AM, dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12131 From: dave santos Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Fw: Best AWE Beta-Site (Necker Island)
Sir Richard Branson is a world record aviator, kitesurfer, and pro-AWE billionaire who has announced an ambitious renewable energy program (carbonwarroom.com) across the Carribbean Island chain, starting with his own island (Necker Island). A SkySails graphic appears in Peter Boyd's TEDX presentation on the program.

The BVI-Necker wind is first-rate, and the quality-of-life and capital access not too bad either. Three 100kW HAWTs are planned, but noise and impact on the landscape is a challenge. AWE could show the way around wind power issues of high capital cost, noise, and visual downsides.

Here is a playful kPower graphic regarding Necker as an AWES beta-site-

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12132 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
To aim at some efficiency, it may be better to steer clear of duplicate filings in different countries or WIPO. Below is an effort to Doug Selsam's windpower patent portfolio by using just the US filings.   I hope I did not miss any, but if so, we may easily add to the list. Within the claims of the five patents and attending text are some interesting springboards for separate discussion. Staying with topic, one may search all the claims of the five patents to see what might be AWE pertinent and also novel with inventive step per start of this topic. Google adds some value for study, but the PDFs are the raw patent documents. I hold that examiners might look at prior art, but just looking and concerning with some matter is no guarantee that the examiner appreciated the fullness of prior arts even in what the examiner examined.  My adventure: I do not want to miss out on some gem; such may happen by rash surveying rather than close study. Earlier in AWES forum the topic to study Selsam's longest patent document was barely accomplished in forum; a gloss occurred.  Let's ever appreciate Doug's late 1970's laddermill notarized item; Doug seemed to miss that he was close to the Faust variant that seems to net non-downwind lift-machine effectiveness whereas Doug has put aside his first finding as a drag machine.             We seek any AWE novelty and inventive step of non-obvious-to-those-skilled-in-the-arts nature; again, what might b-- for AWE--beyond Fry and Hise and priors in the Selsam flow?
  • US6616402  Serpentine wind turbine.  
    • Filed: Jun 14, 2001      
  • == US6692230  Balanced, high output, rapid rotation wind turbine (Weathervane multi-rotor windmill)
    • Filed: Nov 23, 2001 
  • == US7008172  Side-furling co-axial multi-rotor wind turbine. 
    • Filed: Feb 17, 2004 
  • == US7063501  Multi-rotor wind turbine with generator as counterweight   
    • Filed: Mar 27, 2004 
  • == US8197179  Stationary co-axial multi-rotor wind turbine supported by continuous central driveshaft 
    • Filed Mar 7, 2006
DougS, are there any missing windpower patents?   Thanks. 
Best, 
   ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12133 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
There was lots of prior art using vertical axis turbines on long driveshafts supported by various means. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12134 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: What inventive claim in Superturbine goes beyond Fry and Hise?
DaveS, and DougS, and all:   
    Two of our posts wrestled with whether or not the Selsam windpower patents cited Fry and Hise or not. The present pause on this detail concerns the following:   Selsam's text in his summary ***179 patent does not mention Fry and Hise, but the patent lists that the Examiner cites Fry & Hise.   My pause concerns the possible large difference in persons and purpose.   I pause to ask, "What if Selsam did carefully rehearse Fry and HIse in the "prior art" text as he did for several other prior art inventors?"    I am personally put on alert to examine whether some cherry-picking was done with a result that Fry and Hise may have been underappreciated in the "prior art" review.  Maybe this topic thread is a chance to bring in a careful appreciation of Fry and Hise relative to the claims Selsam made in his patent text. 
     Sizing things, separating rotors, lifting bodies, kite-training rigging, and other points were in prior art before the Selsam patent; such matters are obvious to those skilled in the arts prior to his 2001 priority date. 
      Fry and Hise were aware of driveshaft as a only moving part, but because they also facing layered wind speeds through gradients, they went further and taught disengaging segments and clutching segments; they faced that a driveshaft in such environment without clutching/disengaging could destroy itself with differential torques. 
     ~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12135 From: dougselsam Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Laddermill => SuperTurbine(R), Inventive steps
Thanks for your interest in SuperTurbine(R), and in how I transitioned from laddermill to SuperTurbine(R), and the inventive steps involved.
First it is an oversimplification to say I went from laddermill to ST just because laddermill was a drag machine and ST was a lift-based machine.  It was a little more complicated than that.  Of course it seemed better to have propellers, that could stand their ground and not move downwind, rather than sails moving downwind, that would therefore have a low relative windspeed and contribute little power.  Essentially it was a matter of taking what would work somewhat like a Savonius (inefficient), and instead use propellers (more efficient).  But there was more to it than that:  At the same time I made the leap from mom;'s clothesline complete with the laundry drying as it goes by, to real propellers, I started imagining a laddermill going fast enough to use lift and airfoils, and I could see that it might fly on its own with no top wheel needed, and that would turn what was somewhat like a looping Savonius machine, into a looping Darrieus machine, but the problem I had was it seemed too complicated and too dangerous.  I mean, wind energy blades want to travel at 120 MPH, and so you have these cables whipping around at 120 mph.  The blades would seem to possibly need constant adjustment throughout the cycle.   The propellers, on the other hand, just sort of stay there, just hang in one place.  Sure the tips are going 120 MPH, but the rotor itself could just hang there in the air, doing its thing, seemingly motionless!  That seemed way easier for a dummy like me to even contemplate, than loops of airfoils constantly changing pitch, going by faster than I had ever gone in a car, (and make sure you don't get in the way or get caught in it!).  My thought was that a lift-based high-speed laddermill could work, but that it would take SO MUCH expertise to get it to really run right that it was just over my head.  The propellers I could grasp.  The looping airfoil thing seemed like it could only be done by some extreme aerospace experts.  That was why, when I saw U.Delfts and Ockels promoting my teenage idea as "laddermill" I was real excited.  First, I thought it was a clever name, since it looked like a rope ladder.  This team, it seemed, would have the expertise to actually make it work!  What blew me away with disappointment was that they gave up without building one and just started flying kites and doing the kite-reeling thing.  I was aghast.  I reeled.  (get it? reeled?)  All that hype, and all those patents, and they're not even going to build one?  And now they're flying kites and reeling (like everybody else) , and still calling THAT a laddermil?  I was like "WHAT???"
To this day, I think laddermill is a great idea, and the more I've thought about it over the years, the fewer reasons I can think of that it might not be able to work really well.  But if nobody is going to build one, how would anyone ever know? 
Same with the Fry idea of multiple vertical-axis turbines all hanging from whatever, all driving an elongate driveshaft - a great idea - why has nobody built one?  Look at the header for this group right now: a tethered biplane or boxkite with a nice-looking prop in the center - so whats the problem?  Why isn't anyone trying one of those???  This is why I say, just go through the published literature: there are many many many GREAT ideas for AWE.  It's just that nobody is DOING any of them.  There are not just 10 easy ways to do AWE in MY head - there are 10 easy ways in LOTS of peoples' heads, and hundreds, if not thousands, of workable AWE ideas published in the archives, just nobody bothers to build or try any of it.  Look at SkyWIndPower - nothing wrong with their concept whatsoever.  A completely possible, highly-robust concept that could almost not fail to work, a million scientists all doing a simultaneous hang-wringing session over their warming planet concensus, and somehow, nobody wants to bother developing SkyWindPower.  Gosh when I saw the first SkyWIndPower press-releases, I figured as soon as they dropped the single-bladed rotor aspect, and went to regular rotors, they'd redefine wind energy!  "It's OVER!"  I thought "SkyWIndPower has conquered the world!"  But they just never did much of anything.  They are going so slow it's like molasses in January after global warming when winters got way colder, like now.  Anyway I digress.  OK Inventive steps:  ST patents cover a LOT of inventive steps, resulting in lots of claims.  For example, part of 6616402 covers blades filled with helium.  Period.  They don't have to be SuperTurbine blades, just wind turbine blades.  Or hydrogen.  Or any buoyant gas, actually.   The patents cover a lot more than AWE, they conver ground-based and tower-based turbines, underwater, driving boats, used to propel airborne vehicles and provide lift, and combinations of Darrieus and regular propellers in one turbine.  But if i had to sum the aspect you guys seem to be asking about, it's that there were plenty of multi-rotor vertical-axis machines in the literature, suspended, airborne, etc., and plenty of multi-rotor regular wind turbines, aimed coaxially with the wind, including jet engines etc.   But what was new was running a driveshaft with a series of regular propellers at an angle, with sufficient spacing to get fresh wind in between the rotors, so the rotors could each get their own supply of air and be effective, rather than trying to re-extract energy from "used air" that had already gone through a previous propeller.  Then you can get on to flying the rotors like gyrocopters, etc.  It all gets pretty complicated.  Lots of patents, lots of claims, lots of countries, lots of expense, lots of you should be lucky it's not you or you'd be broke.  Having patents is a lot of work and a lot of expense, and there are plenty of good inventors and business people who make a great success without patents.  Patents take a lot of time and energy that could be used developing products, and once you have them it turns into an ongoing project.  Your patent attorney can tell you more, but it gets to be one of those "be careful what you wish for" type of situations since maintenence fees, and  ongoing continuation patents become projects unto themselves.  As most people have heard, most patents expire without having made any money for anyone but the patent office and the patent attorneys.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 12136 From: dougselsam Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Wind Roses to identify AWE Paradises
What "worries" me about your fixation on acronyms, making more acronyms of acronyms, until nobody even knows what your acronyms of acronyms even mean anymore, is you are lost in a sea of tiny bureaucratic details, that will probably need to be modified if and when economical AWE systems emerge anyway.  By the time anything happens, all your acronyms of acronyms such as RAD (Rapid Airborne Wind Energy Development)  (No wait - "Deployment" - did I get it right this week?  What "D" stands for keeps changing with your mood, right?) will be forgotten.  I think I've said before, listening to you recite endless little rules and acronyms reminds me of an effort in say, the year 1900, trying to develop a 100 MPH car, with some nutcase hopping up and down constantly citing the law requiring a man walking with a lantern ahead of a car, and speed restrictions of 2 mph in a city, etc.  Yes, the rules were there, but fixating on them would have prevented development of the car as we know it.  What I see is, rather than developing your 100 mph car, endless worry about each and every rule and what acronym of acronyms apply at every juncture, your "100 mph car" has no wheels or engine yet, while you spend too much time worrying about what color(s) to paint it.  The result would be that the rules move on as the industry moves on, as with the lantern-walker at 2 mph.  What I see in your effort is an admirable tenacity: you haven't given up, but rather than focus on what would work well, concentrating on colors and opinions of perceived authority figures who, if they knew the answers, might be doing them.  And we read, you are like "The Wright Brothers"?  This is like trying to develop powered flight by consulting railroad timetables and rules for signalling trains, getting tips from some ancient undersecretary of transportation whose main focus was wheeled transport on tracks.  I say, get your concept working first, then build your race car, get the engine tuned right, get the tires to hold together at 100 mph, get the brakes, steering, and suspension working and fine-tuned, and maybe, far far down the road, pick a color to paint it.  In other words, what color to make it is the last thing you should worry about, not the first.  Just my opinion.