Harry,

I agree. A working prototype or at least a proof of concept and enough explains for understanding.

DaveS,

DougS is quite in the topic by mentioning excess of claims (100 MW, and I would add MW-scale arch) instead technical description.

PierreB

The submarine kited rotor kite or gyrokite is well known, yes. 

Does anyone have evidence of a revolving kite or gyrokite effected before the 

patent by Ansboro filed in 1891? 

1891: Filed: Jun 6, 1891        US464412      Thomas Ansboro of Glasgow, Scotland      Kite  
Thomas Ansboro assigned half of the patent to John Liddle of same living address.

Ansboro's text seems to have him "improving" revolving kites, so we seek earlier matters.
The whole HAWT sail thing in history of windmills has me guess that someone managed to kite the revolving assembly before Ansboro. 

~ JoeF

DaveS,

"...and make sure your own comments only add to the topics under discussion"

For months and soon years the numerous posts about "MW-scale arch" become topic-off (Mothra is only a kite, not an AWES) unless you can describe precisely the modus operanti. On some posts I ask you for a useful description, for nothing. So before criticizing low standard of someone you should improve your standard by trying to replace the high level of claims by a plausible technical description.

PierreB

"All kites are AWES, as they use wind energy to maintain flight." Please JoeF can you note new DaveS' definition: kite = AWES!

"Mothras also have the potential to be self-lifted WECS themselves, by bulk self-oscillations (see Tacoma Narrows Bridge similarity-case). " How does the generator work? How is it possible to convert energy into a generator by using self-oscillations ofTacoma Narrows Bridge?

"...Megascale AWES..." To write all days about that does not make it feasible.

"Mothra1 was 300m2, as 1/40 scale model of a ~km-scale span, as being studied in wind tunnel and simulation work at the University of Grenoble." What is studied? Where is the report?

"These ideas have been repeated and explored many times on the Forum, in considerable detail (with proper subject headings)." Many times sure! But no descrition of conversion system.

"Please follow a higher subject standard next time" Indeed if I use your standard as reference,I have a very big margin of improvement.

As usually no answer about conversion system. I think this is a forum for AWES. I suggest you posting on forums about kites, why not power kites where you can mention "Megascale Arch". But of course kite = AWES, so forums about kites = forums about AWES.

PierreB

Kinetic Rain - World's largest kinetic art sculpture @ Changi Airpor

Kinetic Sculpture - Fisher Technical Services, Inc.

Here is a wing on a string anchored probably to a hand to a body loaded with shoes fixed in position by friction of shoes against soil. The wing is specialized to convert some of the wind's energy to stark oscillating motions of major wing parts. Check out the kinetic wings in kite systems by Yukio Akiyama   Such AWES may become the seed for doing further purposes beyond the entertaining motions; I could see Darin Selby coming in on this and fixing some generators along the spine of some of Yukio's dancing-body wings.   There was an early flying-machine patent that aimed to use nearly such wing motions to provide propulsion for the flying machine ... without tether, which project did not get very far, but some water animals ... manta rays seem to do something like these matters. 

See, hear, feel ... the wind being converted: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cWMAknloTc

DaveS,

Please "Test, test,test..." (Fort Felker) Mothra as AWES (not only as kite) .And report how you make Mothra passively oscillating then how energy is collected from oscillations, then how Mothra changes its orientation according to wind changes of direction, then how Mothra is passively launched and landed, and how the maintenance is done...

Certainly for you it is obvious than Mothra is a Proven [see the great number of posts about] Mega-Giga-scale AWES, but it is not the case for all in the forum or the world.

PierreB

 Taking this as a new special topic, a dedicated title is given. 

Hi JoeF,

Here is the link _ which is already in your data _  http://youtu.be/0GflQyDDQec for a rotating kite as reel in/out method. It is not yet an AWES since there is no generator, only measure of kite force. It is a sort of rotor with only one kite as soft blade. Such a short loop takes less space used in regard to power. However active control is required to keep the altitude, except with kite-pilot for passive control.

PierreB

"Mothra1 is a sufficient AWES basis to loft every turbine Doug has ever sold higher than any SuperTurbine can ever reach. Pierre might then understand massive lift as an AWES basis." OK DaveS, Mothra can sustain turbines.But you want use Mothra as extractor as oscillating system. I put my question in another way: how can you extract energy from "waves" of a flag.

PierreB

Thanks DaveS.But,

"Energy is collected from the oscillations by the various "Kite Engines"..."

How? 

PierreB 

DougS,

You are economically viable, so you are not an AWES...

PierreB

 Hi JoeF, 

Here is the link _ which is already in your data _  http://youtu.be/0GflQyDDQec for a rotating kite as reel in/out method. It is not yet an AWES since there is no generator, only measure of kite force. It is a sort of rotor with only one kite as soft blade. Such a short loop takes less space used in regard to power. However active control is required to keep the altitude, except with kite-pilot for passive control.

PierreB

Pierre, 

       It is ever nice to see that video; thank you for bringing it forward again.

Some observations:

1. You seem to have in mind a certain threshold for a project; it seems you have in mind a certain kind of AWES for your project. It seems that the kind of AWES you have for your project is one in which you will be adding a specific electric generator to the shown active machine. Once you add the specific electric generator then you will have passed that certain threshold that will then allow you to say that the shown plus the integrated additional electric generator forms the kind of AWES that you have in mind for your project.

2. We differ on this: The shown machine is already one kind of AWES, but not the kind you envision for your specific project.   The shown machine already is configured so it is converting the wind's energy and generating many kinds sorts of energy which do works and stand ready even to do more works. Namely, the shown machine yet not holding the specific electric generator that you have in mind for your project, is generating the following:

a. Large motion of the wing and tether.

b. Expansion and contraction of the wing parts. In so doing there is generation of potential energy that is cyclically used during the motions shown. Such is used to make kinetic energy for the masses involved. Some of that energy is again working to form turbulence in the air. 

c. The shown machine is converting the wind's energy to noisy.

d. The shown machine is converting the wind's energy to heat.

e. The shown machine is converting the wind's energy to static electricity.

f. The shown machine is wearing down the parts of the system; wear is occurring for the wing and tether and connection points to the anchor. Stresses are set up in the anchor system by the shown; such works may be valued by someone.

3. How one values what the shown machine is doing is another matter. Perhaps someone would use the shown machine to slow the wind, to give turbulence to the wind, to heat the air, to give signal by noise, to give signal by motion, to give signal by vibrations through the tether and anchor and soil to other soil vibration receptors. One might value how the shown system tests parts for strength, longevity, wear, etc.  One might value the visual effect of the shown machine for bird scaring, people entertainment, or meditation. The many works and values of the energy-converter shown are plenty.  The tension shown measured is cyclically changing and work is being done on the springs of the measuring device.

So, relative to the focus of a specific project, the machine shown is a sub-part of something you have in mind; when you join the electric generator, then you will have a larger global machine that will more fit the specific purpose that you have in mind; then you will call the combined machine an AWES (I add, "an AWES meeting your specific purpose").   

You are invited to appreciate that the shown machine without adding another part is an airborne wind-energy conversion machine, and AWES, but not one yet fitting your specific target.    Not fitting your target need not force the shown machine to be an outcast from "airborne wind energy conversion machine" as the shown clearly qualifies mechanically for membership.   As is.   As is without even employing the machine for other tertiary purposes like generate electricity more emphatically than it does already, or like towing a sled or boat or car or plow or further noisemaker, etc.  The shown machine is an AWES in itself, but of a sort that does not have membership in the category for which you seem to reach for your project. AWE spectrum of categories is wide.

     ~ JoeF