Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                   AWES1121to1170
Page 3 of 79.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1121 From: dougselsam Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1122 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1123 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1124 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Getting around some of those AWECS lines

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1125 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: AWECS Surface Structures

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1126 From: dougselsam Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1127 From: dougselsam Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1128 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1129 From: Dan Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1130 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1131 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1132 From: harry valentine Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context":

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1133 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1134 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1135 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1136 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1137 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: DIY Three Phase Crank Groundstation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1138 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1139 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1140 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1141 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: AWE book from Germany?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1142 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1143 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: AWE book from Germany?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1144 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1145 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1146 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1147 From: harry valentine Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: DIY Three Phase Crank Groundstation

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1148 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1149 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: AWE book from Germany?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1150 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1151 From: Dan Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1152 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: NOTICE ON OFF-LIST COMMUNICATIONS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1153 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1154 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1155 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: NOTICE ON OFF-LIST COMMUNICATIONS

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1156 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Basic AWE facts, starting in the 1970's

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1157 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1158 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Basic AWE facts, starting in the 1970's

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1159 From: ciarandennehy20 Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1160 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1161 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1162 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1163 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1164 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1165 From: ciarandennehy20 Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1166 From: harry valentine Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Project

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1167 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: X-38

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1168 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: X-38

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1169 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: X-38

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1170 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Project




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1121 From: dougselsam Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Wow Dave S., you finally discovered "the crankshaft": the standard and long-known solution for translating reciprocating linear motion to rotation. Congratulations. I was wondering how long it might take you to stumble across that one. ;)
D.S.
(hint: most fluid reactive turbines start out using rotational motion to save this "crankshaft" step)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1122 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got
Doug,
 
        Please, stay on your pill schedule, you will feel much better, and not bore everyone one with your  over and over again rants.  I know you believe you shit Ice Cream in any flavor desired, hell your damned near perfection, and every one else has not a clue.  If you look through all your rants you'll see a common theme,  a psychiatrist would have a field day.
         I see a very scared little boy who is calling out for attention, I wish you well in your healing.
 
                                                                                                            Dan'l
 
                                                                                                                    
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:40:58 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got

 
Hi SpiralAirFoil (Sideways DaVinci Helicopter)
and Hi Dave S. (Forever "getting ready to get ready")
Guys: It is apparent to me that because you see no true path of hope for your own cited apparatus, you'd rather go "tee hee" about what real wind energy people say when they see the same thing they've seen for years: People introducing drag-based reciprocating turbine designs, claiming superiority over the status-quo, based on their own ignorance and nothing else. Certainly it is not based on working turbines. (Anyone can make any claim they want about what only exists on paper.)

And like silly teenagers when the parents come home unexpectedly, your reaction to observations of reality is silly giggling, as though you have one last gasp of credibility by making a snide comment or two, perhaps demonstrating a dubious display of intellect by having any sort of comeback at all. How many times in the past 10 years do you think we in wind energy have heard these same claims?

Let me re-iterate:
We have seen it all before, heard all the claims before.
They are redundant redundant redundant.
They are boilerplate boilerplate boilerplate.
They are cookie-cutter cookie-cutter cookie-cutter
They are predictable predictable predictable
They are inaccurate inaccurate inaccurate
They are 100% unfounded 100% unfounded 100% unfounded
They are hyperbolic claims entirely without factual basis,
with nothing to stand behind them nor verify them in any way.
If that is how you want to conduct your scientific/intellec tual life, that is your choice.

All I've been doing is trying to give some fellow "curious" and "intellectually- engaged" people a "heads-up" from the actual world of wind energy, which has been the fastest-growing segment of the largest (actual) industry in the world (energy) for 30 years straight. That is me handing you value for free.

That people continuously place their innocent newbie designs that demonstrate a deep ignorance of all that has come before them in this real and actual industry, repeatedly placing their fantasy constructions up against what has been shown to actually work - contraptions that could never make significant power nor survive strong winds, and repeatedly state all of the (unknown to them) 100%-symptomatic and highly repetitive claims of superiority of their technology, demonstates their own symptomatic ignorance of reality, combined with an unfounded conviction of the superiority of what is mere fantasy, not progress.
Anyway, if there is one thing I should learn in this world, it is that some people will always be resistant to facts, and that spending too much time trying to change their minds is futile, so I will stop now.
Have fun everyone!
Thanks for listening.
:)
D.S.



Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1123 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Pardon me Doug,
For once I feel a need to add here that posts from members on this open platform is not necessarily 'state-of-the-art'. Members choose what to disclose from their hoards on a free coop-ip basis.
While healthy disagreements to technical submissions are welcomed, it is important that we respect everyone's contribution. Those who assume they know better will serve the list best by being first to contribute relevant material helpful in guiding others and certainly not by comments that tend to ridicule early contributors. Lead or follow with due regards to those who dare.
Best of Lifts
JohnO


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1124 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/15/2010
Subject: Re: Getting around some of those AWECS lines
Im planning on using something like the "jet pack" from Martin aircraft co.

---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1125 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: AWECS Surface Structures
The final finishing surface treatment of tethers and kite part surfaces may be of material quite distinct from the structural interior of the parts. Optimizing AWECS will invite engineering the final surface treatments. Maintenance of a system will concern with surfaces finishes. Moisture barriers, UV barriers, insulation barriers, colorization, conductivity, etc. are some of the concerns that invite surface treatments.  Smoothness, roughness?  Photovoltaic surface? Heating?  Cooling? Signal carrier? Hazard colorization patterns?  Message-holding?      Every material has its final surface structure and chemical makeup; just what that final surface does to the efficiency of the system for the system's full life is something to be known and respected.      Surfaces decay, but ever a final surface is extant; the timed changes in a surface finish is a matter of concern.  During gross exploration and design of AWECS, surface finishing may take fairly a distant seat to large assembly design features. Surfaces meet the weather, air flow, atmospheric moisture, rubbings, microbes, dust, air pollutants, cosmic rays, handling oils, and sun rays. The surface is a very active environment.                              CoopIP           jpf   15Feb2010    
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1126 From: dougselsam Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Best of Lifts to you too JohnO.
I have been contributing a lot of helpful knowledge to this list, starting with explaining the similarities between many proposed schemes in the air, in light of many similar schemes on towers, buildings and in "groundhugger mode" that have had abyssmal results. It is the job of veterans to explain the common pitfalls to newbies. In wind energy this is seldom rewarded. It's a case of "no good deed goes unpunished". Note that even the term groundhugger is condescending and impies that turbines at a 300 foot hub height are somehow afraid to leave the ground. While I agree generally with the idea that the future of wind energy could easily be an airborne future, we won't get there by just taking the old groundhugger mistakes into the air.
What I did not take into account though is the cranial density factor of those promoting wind turbine ideas that toss aside what has been learned, because they add a single new dubious factor that is supposed to suddenly make all that came before irrelevant.
I've tried to get across the idea of lift-based systems taking their power moving across the wind to even bring the discussion up to a 1000-years-ago level, but I forget: The crackpots do not ever want to be challenged, and if they are they call names.
In Dave S. case, he has made a concerted effort to try and refute every statement I ever make online, as a defense for the fact that he's spinning his wheels (and not spinning propellers). So I am returning the favor to place every statement Dave S. makes into a bright light for close examination.
Thanks
Doug S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1127 From: dougselsam Date: 2/16/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got
OK Daniel:
Name-calling is the final refuge of the "that's all we got" crowd.
Your confusing me shitting ice cream, with you, asking people to eat your own dubious effluent. No point in calling your psychiatrist - try calling an electrician! We'll await the results of your breakthrough, altghough I believe the Archimedean screw was well-known 2000 years ago and has never found a use operating in reverse. Sorry for bringing any facts from the world of wind energy into your world of ???
:)
Doug S.
PS How are your high altitude wind machines running Dan'l? Oh I see, you don't have anything running. Big surprise there, eh? Oh well, at least you have a keyboard capable of generating hot air. Never forget: "High Altitude Wind Energy" is a subset of "Wind Energy". If you don't want the participation of wind energy people, if you don't want to deal with the known facts of wind energy, find another name for it. Don't expect to say you have the next breakthrough in any field and be unchallenged by those with actual working experience in that field. You publicly claim you have a breakthrough in wind energy (fastest-growing segment of largest industry in the world), yet refuse to back your claim in any way. As I have explained, you are a continuation of an endless annoying epidemic in wind energy. For every working turbine, there is another crackpot declaring their nonworking, on-paper-only ignorance somehow eclipses what you can buy off the shelf today. Future statements of taking technology already known to be ineffective into the sky simply makes a useless contraption into a more expensive useless contraption. Nonworking theories don't suddenly start working just because you place them in the sky at great expense. With regard to your own effluent, I think you resemble a soft ice cream machine stuck on "fill". Except your ice cream is only imaginary.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1128 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Wind tunnels, water tunnels
https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centennialofflight.gov%2Fessay%2FEvolution_of_Technology%2Ffirst_wind_tunnels%2FTech34G1.jpg&t=1564511386&sig=PiI._r2w_doS1MeyFFGR2A--~E
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1129 From: Dan Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels
Hi Joe,

Not sure just what I'm looking at, can you elorate further?

Dan'l

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1130 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Untried arrangement for two-kite solution that would lift the priorly challenging ground line into lofted action
 while giving two kites in the air at once.
Perhaps use bicycle pedaling that keeps direct reverse capacity to drive the line one direction and then the other. 
Or hand driven crank.   System gives exercise without running.    

Set up in calm mornings in college-student patio areas.  Or at halftime in indoor arena.   Indoor gym at school assemblies?
When all others are grounded, be flying two kites at once without running.  

Practice first
Kites are to be tuned so they do not meet each other in center.  Prevent  line-crossing chafe at bullwheel and pulley.

System in positive sufficient wind could be set to drive ground generator. Keep the kites triggering for opposing cross-winding.

Photos are invited to YouTube .       Open CoopIP     JpF 17Feb2010  

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1131 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got
   Doug,
 
             I've stated my case and have nothing more to add. I see that we agree to disagree. I'm comfortable with that.
 
                                                                                                                      Dan'l
 
 
 
               
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:20:16 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Twind Claims "in Context": It;'s all you got

 
OK Daniel:
Name-calling is the final refuge of the "that's all we got" crowd.
Your confusing me shitting ice cream, with you, asking people to eat your own dubious effluent. No point in calling your psychiatrist - try calling an electrician! We'll await the results of your breakthrough, altghough I believe the Archimedean screw was well-known 2000 years ago and has never found a use operating in reverse. Sorry for bringing any facts from the world of wind energy into your world of ???
:)
Doug S.
PS How are your high altitude wind machines running Dan'l? Oh I see, you don't have anything running. Big surprise there, eh? Oh well, at least you have a keyboard capable of generating hot air. Never forget: "High Altitude Wind Energy" is a subset of "Wind Energy". If you don't want the participation of wind energy people, if you don't want to deal with the known facts of wind energy, find another name for it. Don't expect to say you have the next breakthrough in any field and be unchallenged by those with actual working experience in that field. You publicly claim you have a breakthrough in wind energy (fastest-growing segment of largest industry in the world), yet refuse to back your claim in any way. As I have explained, you are a continuation of an endless annoying epidemic in wind energy. For every working turbine, there is another crackpot declaring their nonworking, on-paper-only ignorance somehow eclipses what you can buy off the shelf today. Future statements of taking technology already known to be ineffective into the sky simply makes a useless contraption into a more expensive useless contraption. Nonworking theories don't suddenly start working just because you place them in the sky at great expense. With regard to your own effluent, I think you resemble a soft ice cream machine stuck on "fill". Except your ice cream is only imaginary.



Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1132 From: harry valentine Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Twind Claims "in Context":
What Doug and the world is waiting for is an airborne wind power system that generates several mega-watts of power for several weeks or months. So far, we actually do have several working scale models that have actually flown plus some prototypes from groups such as Magenn and Makani. Google had good reason to fund a group like Makani . . . their computer systems consume the electric output of a small city.
 
 
I think that several people have already proven beyond any doubt that terrain enhanced wind power (eg: taking energy from wind streams that flow through valleys) will generate substantial power at competitive costs.
This may in fact be the next step in generating large amounts of power from wind at several locations around the world.
 
There are also many locations where airborne wind power has considerable merit . . . even at several kilowatts in remote, sparsely populated regions of the world. Such development would be an important stepping stone to bigger and more powerful forms of airborne wind power technology.
 
 
Harry
 
 



All your Hotmail contacts on your phone. Try it now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1133 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

The diagram

http://tinyurl.com/dragtesting

Shows an rotable arm hold a body P out in the wind stream (open or tunneled).
Resistance to rotation is provided by the gravity-pulled mass M. Calibratiing the
arm length and the drum diameter relative to the M  would give indication on
the drag of the body P after adjusting measure for the influence of the arm holding P.
If the arm holding P is with a moment on the same diameter as the drum holding the
line that goes to M, then calibration is just with adjusting size of M  and the length
of lever arm.  

The sketch is an early sketch.  

This thread invites use of wind tunnel and water tunnels for measuring the drag of
airfoils and hydrofoils.  The airfoils might be stalled or spinning.   P could be one unit
or a string of beaded elements.     

Know the wind speed impacting the P  face.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/WindTunnel/history.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_tunnel

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/first_wind_tunnels/Tech34.htm

 

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1134 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Doug,
 
Please understand that i have long worked with high performance turbines, including multi-rotors on a shaft as early as twenty years ago. KiteMotor 1 is a very hot AWE turbine, just as you champion, & has flown at several public events since 07. Don't call these turbines "propellers" & mast mounted devices "flying", if you wish to be precise.
 
Nature makes smart engineering trade-offs with wings all the time, which is why most flying creatures do not have the hottest foils; a grouse is not a albatross. Any aeroengineer understands that low Re & many other factors dictate relaxed aspect ratios & thicker foils. Dan'l can in fact beat your turbines in lighter flukier winds, so stop baiting him with rudeness.
 
Several other misconceptions of yours bear mentioning. A De Prony Brake test is the proper way to judge your turbines' intrinsic outputs, not the data you provide. Read the list archives to find that we are ahead of you in such matters.
 
You have written that you can see no scaling limits to your torsion tube based concepts, but its actually not hard to predict severe limits. In normal high wind a long AWE multi-rotor torsion tube with necessarily chaotic dynamics will have local energy focusing transients that easily exceed the yield limits of any engineering material. The tube will fail by buckling & safety is not guaranteed. Either calculations or empiric experiment can confirm this, but please do your own thorough analysis & be very worried about product liability.
 
You also conflated my consideration of a short robust crankshaft on the ground with your long tubes. Lloyd's clever idea allows tethers to drive a crankshaft over thousands of meters, something no drive shaft can do.
 
Anyone is welcome to inspect KiteLab's diverse successful AWE devices & see them in operation. Many credible engineers already have. An friendly challenge is hereby extended to any AWE player to fly-off against KiteLab. Fly-offs will settle the sad rants on this list.
 
dave santos
 
 
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1135 From: dave santos Date: 2/17/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes
Good resource maximization Joe, & the newly useful return line is now kept off the ground. To keep the loops clear of each other one can fly one low & the other high, or cornerblocks can space them. Multiple kites as trains is a natural next enhancement.
 
Am working on Nestled Tri-Tethers for many solutions, including making ideas like this take wind from any direction.
coopip
 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1136 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels
 Joe,
 
           Got it, thank you.
 
                                Dan'l
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: joefaust333@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:45:34 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Re: Wind tunnels, water tunnels

 

The diagram
http://tinyurl. com/dragtesting
Shows an rotable arm hold a body P out in the wind stream (open or tunneled).
Resistance to rotation is provided by the gravity-pulled mass M. Calibratiing the
arm length and the drum diameter relative to the M  would give indication on
the drag of the body P after adjusting measure for the influence of the arm holding P.
If the arm holding P is with a moment on the same diameter as the drum holding the
line that goes to M, then calibration is just with adjusting size of M  and the length
of lever arm.  
The sketch is an early sketch.  
This thread invites use of wind tunnel and water tunnels for measuring the drag of
airfoils and hydrofoils.  The airfoils might be stalled or spinning.   P could be one unit
or a string of beaded elements.     

Know the wind speed impacting the P  face.
http://www.grc. nasa.gov/ WWW/K-12/ WindTunnel/ history.html
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Wind_tunnel
http://www.centenni alofflight. gov/essay/ Evolution_ of_Technology/ first_wind_ tunnels/Tech34. htm
 
 
 



Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1137 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: DIY Three Phase Crank Groundstation
Bicycle technology is a mature universal mechanical language at the human scale. KiteLab has several AWE groundstation prototypes based on bikes.
 
To make a cool three-phase crank AWE groundstation rated to about 3kw take two bicycles mounted side by side with the bottom bracket (crank axle) aligned. Link the two adjacent pedal axles as a solid rod. Set the two outside pedals at 120 degrees to the central pedal axle. Not all pedals will set at this angle, but the classic friction clamped ones do. You now have a three phase crank to attach kitelines via mounted fairlead blocks.
 
The two rear wheels provide many options for power take-off. Generators are easily impinged on tires or rims. The bike gearing provides much load flexibility. The load may be further varied by selectively impinging a range of generators like a primary &/or a pony, according to conditions. Concrete or pig iron can be added to the wheels to provide flywheel mass.
 
To allow weathercocking the whole assembly can be mounted on a small vehicle wheel with the axle secured vertically & perhaps buried in the ground or in a concrete foundation. Rotoray contacts transfer the electricity off the rotating assembly.
 
coopip

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1138 From: dougselsam Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Hello Dave S.:
See my replies below:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1139 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1140 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Joby's patent
Joeben Benirt's patent awarded last week.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100032948.pdf
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1141 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: AWE book from Germany?
Definitely the most successful way to make money off AWE in the near term.

http://www.bod.de/index.php?id=296&objk_id=330189
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1142 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Doug,
 
This device has been extensively linked & i have repeatedly asked you not to post your search woes to the whole list. I only post this to all since you never seem to reply to email off-list.
 
Please contact me off-list with requests to correct your false & unfair impressions. This flame war has tired many good folks.
 
daveS


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1143 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: AWE book from Germany?
We are happy to see someone is mining the text that has been being developed
in our sites and group.      Good show.    I have not see the 148 pager and might not unless they send a review copy.
The keyword list is right out of the articles being made at Wikipedia. Anyone may freely mine that text at Wikipedia
and my personal text.     Get it out flying ...   thanks for the link Dimitri.    Hope they mentioned your efforts. Or are
you responsible for the book?
 
 
€ 45 00 *inkl. MwSt.

Airborne wind turbine

Wind turbine, Slip ring, Yaw drive, Captive plane, Lightning, Kite, Kite mooring, Kite types, Kite applications, High altitude wind power, Blimp, mThunderstorm

Klappentext des Buches

An airborne wind turbine is a design concept for a wind turbine that is supported in the air without a tower. Airborne wind turbines may operate in low or high altitudes; they are part of a wider class of airborne wind energy systems (AWE) addressed by high altitude wind power. When the generator is on the ground, then the tethered aircraft need not carry the generator mass or have a conductive tether. When the generator is aloft, then a conductive tether would be used to transmit energy to the ground or used aloft or beamed to receivers using microwave or laser. Airborned turbine systems would have the advantage of tapping an almost constant wind, without requirements for slip rings or yaw mechanism, and without the expense of tower construction. Kites and 'helicopters' come down when there is insufficient wind; kytoons and blimps resolve the matter. Also, bad weather such as lightning or thunderstorms, could temporarily suspend use of the machines, probably requiring them to be brought back down to the ground and covered. Some schemes require a long power cable and, if the turbine is high enough, an aircraft exclusion zone.

Alphascript Publishing
ISBN 978-6-13-063608-1, Paperback, 148 Seiten

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1144 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford
DONE PAST EVENT:
Wednesday, February 17, 2010

Kenneth Jensen

Control Systems Engineer
Makani Power, Inc.

High-altitude Wind Power

Abstract: At just 500 m above the ground, the average power density of the wind is double that at 100 m where wind turbines typically reside. This makes high-altitude wind one of the most concentrated forms of renewable energy after hydro-power. Building conventional wind turbines at this height is uneconomical, which begs the question: how do we harness this concentrated and completely untapped resource? Makani Power is developing a novel airborne wind energy system (AWES), which consists of a tethered wing (i.e. kite) with mounted turbines. Propelled by the wind, the wing travels in a circular path (similar to the tip of a conventional wind turbine blade). Power is extracted from this motion by the wing-mounted turbines and transferred to the ground via high-voltage lines in the tether. Due to the efficient use of material in this design and the higher capacity factors afforded by the faster, steadier winds at altitude, we expect this system to have a levelized cost of electricity below that of conventional wind turbines.

Bio: Kenneth Jensen is Ccontrol Systems engineer at Makani Power, a high-altitude wind energy startup company in Alameda, CA. Harnessing high-altitude wind requires sophisticated tethered aerial vehicles, which must be actively controlled to remain stable. Kenneth's job at Makani is to develop the control systems that keep these vehicles flying safely and productively without human intervention. Kenneth holds Bachelor's and Doctorate degrees in Physics from MIT and U.C. Berkeley. His past research involved creating advanced sensors and signal processing elements from new nanostructured materials. However, it was his passion for sailing and appreciation of the power of wind that finally swept him to Makani Power.

 Time: 4:00pm – 5:30pm
Location: Physics and Astrophysics Conference Room 102/103
Light refreshments available 4:00pm; Presentation begins 4:15pm.
Open to All
===========================================================
 
Some study notes:
1. No one in this AWE list announced the event in this list.
2. Makani Power did not send any note to this list.
3. Though I keep my ears open to a wide swath of feeds, I missed this notice.
4. The announcement furthers what was presented HAWP Conference 2009 by Makani   wherein the generators are lofted and electricity is sent to ground loads via conductive tether while the kite-held turbines are moved in circle paths.
5. Capacity factor is yet seemingly with a significant fuzziness that will take time to know more clearly.
6. Short bio and photo of Kenny Jensen
 
 
JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1145 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent
That looks like a publication of an APPLICATION,
not an approval.   Many patent applications do not reach approval status.
Getting a publication of an application is very distinct from being approved.
So, it looks to me so far that it is an application only:
28 pages in the published PDF applicaiton
Looks like the application used faired tethering also.
The term "airborne wind turbine" is seemingly favored.   Perhaps look to an offer from Roger C. for Airborne Wind Turbine Association    AWTA    ...another guess here, no further data on my part.
 
Well, this should make for good reading, study, and discussion.   What is novel therein.   Wishing JoeBen Bevirt the best on the applicaiton!
 
==========
Method and apparatus for operating and controlling airborne wind energy generation craft and the generation of electrical energy using such craft

Abstract

The invention described herein relates generally to wind power generation. In particular, the invention relates to devices and methods used for launching and retrieving wind energy generating craft as well as novel constructions of such craft. Additionally, novel structures for tethers and tether operation is disclosed. Also, methods and apparatus for power generation are described. The craft described herein are intended for electrical power generation utilizing the wind energy collected from air currents.

==========



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1146 From: dave santos Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent
The cooperative IP (COOPIP) race is aimed at making sure AWE can proceed without being monopolized by well funded patent trolling. We have beat the clock on most of the recent patent claims such as this.
 
Having read this bloated application i can find no "inventive leap" such as the the handful of classic AWE patents contain. Its strange to see so many typos & so much rehashing of known art. It seems the most extreme case of AWE patent trolling ever.
 
Can anyone explain exactly what is novel & essential in this document?
 
Please Joby, consider a more inclusive strategy to AWE development.
 
NOTE: We now have inside confirmation that Google.org does in fact closely monitor this forum. Expect more details soon.
 



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1147 From: harry valentine Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: DIY Three Phase Crank Groundstation
It is always enlightening to see an innovator use meagre resources to achieve something worthwhile. Keep up the good work, Dave.
 
Harry

 

To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
From: santos137@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:08:35 -0800
Subject: [AWECS] DIY Three Phase Crank Groundstation

 
Bicycle technology is a mature universal mechanical language at the human scale. KiteLab has several AWE groundstation prototypes based on bikes.
 
To make a cool three-phase crank AWE groundstation rated to about 3kw take two bicycles mounted side by side with the bottom bracket (crank axle) aligned. Link the two adjacent pedal axles as a solid rod. Set the two outside pedals at 120 degrees to the central pedal axle. Not all pedals will set at this angle, but the classic friction clamped ones do. You now have a three phase crank to attach kitelines via mounted fairlead blocks.
 
The two rear wheels provide many options for power take-off. Generators are easily impinged on tires or rims. The bike gearing provides much load flexibility. The load may be further varied by selectively impinging a range of generators like a primary &/or a pony, according to conditions. Concrete or pig iron can be added to the wheels to provide flywheel mass.
 
To allow weathercocking the whole assembly can be mounted on a small vehicle wheel with the axle secured vertically & perhaps buried in the ground or in a concrete foundation. Rotoray contacts transfer the electricity off the rotating assembly.
 
coopip




Live connected with Hotmail on your phone. Learn more.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1148 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent
Surely more discusssion on this application will occur.
I did my first reading wanting to find novelty.
1. I found someone learning some of what was already known. There indeed text that shows struggle with the challenges sought.
But the function, process, and method invention have been covered by earlier inventors.   Engineering one's hardware to accomplish
what has already been invented mechanically is worthy of respect when once engineered and flying efficiently; but crafting that
which has been invented already does not stop the public domain use of the much earlier instructed invention.    
Patent inspectors might or might not bring to press all prior art.   Extreme prior art on faired tethers and reeling methods over them
should come on the table of consideration.
2. I found something that seems novel: breaking tether to say 40 ft. segments and joining segments
with ball and socket joints, though chaining has used this for ages at various sizes.
Bringing such into kiting may not have been used.
 
I hope JoeBen will join the discussion.  
 
Second and third readings will be done as the discussion unfolds.    What do you see?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1149 From: dimitri.cherny Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: AWE book from Germany?
LOL No Joe. I don't have the time to write a book.

- Dimitri

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1150 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/18/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent
All, note the dates, this is a publication of an application. Publication usually takes place 18 months after filing, however a recent patent office opportunity came to pass last nov. its an accellerated review program for renewable energy patents, I paid the fee and it moved mine to the front of the line. But even so 75% of my claims were disallowed, from prior art, and I thought our research was good, the patent office does a good research job.

Lynn



---- dave santos <santos137@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1151 From: Dan Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Synchronous Membrane Wing-Mills driving Three-Phase Cranks
Bird Killer

"Dan'l can "in fact" beat my turbines in any winds"
Paranoid and scared, we in the wind industry can see that.
Spiralairfoil and Spiralhydrofoil, will publish data. Venture
capital happening. One who embraces the Toa, does not compete,
they follow thier own vision. SO rant on if you like. You are
giving your chi and reputation away as you try to defend your
status.
Dan'l
Compete against your self.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1152 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: NOTICE ON OFF-LIST COMMUNICATIONS
DaveS rightly noted below "This flame war has tired many good folks".
I think it necessary to notify all that posts considered inflammatory or as best handled between individuals and not necessarily beneficial to the group as a whole may be deleted promptly. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1153 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Joby's patent
*******of course they do.***********

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1154 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Yesterday's Makani prez at Stanford
Their only contender here would be SkyWindPower. How many PhD's does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Certainly more than it would take of normal people. ;)
D.S.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1155 From: dave santos Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: NOTICE ON OFF-LIST COMMUNICATIONS
Doug sent the usual false disturbing claim to the whole list that no link exists just because he could not find it (first KiteGen Power Curves, then UTDelft & KiteMotor 1). He made no attempt to contact me off list for link assistance.
I thank the Moderator for vetting it. This cyberstalking & flame war is over.
 
For the curious, an old KiteMotor 1 page...
 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1156 From: dougselsam Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Basic AWE facts, starting in the 1970's
Hi I just wanted to point out a few moments of initial consideration on this topic I had back in the 1970's, as a teenager.
I'd had many years of building and flying kites, sailing boats, and recently (then), hang-gliding as a background. We used to take old bed sheets & lumber and make sails for our sleds and use them as iceboats. So I was aware of the power in the wind. And I was aware that it was stronger at higher heights.

My First Innocent Beginner Idea: Well having flown a kite or two, starting with my Dad & I had becoming adept at kite-making in Indian Guides as a craft project, I "felt the power" of the string pulling my hand. I'd wonder: "How high can a kite go? Is there any limit?" Since wind energy was making its entry into the utility-scale electricity market, I also wondered if kites etc. might be able to eliminate the heavy and expensive towers, holding those multi-ton gearboxes aloft.
So my first idea, since I was used to reeling kite string in and out on a reel, was to use powered reels to have kites go up and down on reciprocating cycles, taking electrical power from the movement.

Now I had also toured the Niagara Falls hydroelectric plant, and seen the gigantic generators - very impressive: these simple rotating machines were powering our home 70 miles away!

I noted that such large machinery was yet very simple: A single rotating part in steady-state rotation. This simplicity and steady-state operation was, I gleaned, instrumental in maintaining a level of reliability required for a civilization to rely on this exclusively for its electricity.

I also noted that the parts of a wind turbine that gathered power were relatively lightweight, while the electrical part (generator) was heavy. So I sought a design that would not loft the generators, as such designs as promoted by Shepard specified, but instead use the heavy components as anchors. Hanging a wind turbine from a blimp was too obvious to even count as a real idea, in my young mind. If something that simple worked economically, people would already be doing it, I mused. Whether that is correct or incorrect I do not know to this day. (However I will say that hanging Superturbines from a kite or blimp would eliminate the gearboxes making the whole thing lighter.)

So my first reaction to my first and quite obvious idea as a kid: taking power from reeling a kite in and out, morphed into what is now called "laddermill", as I sought to make my up-and-down kite system into a steady-state machine without a reciprocating cycle.

I also had a book that showed all types of wind turbines known at that time, with their good and bad points, and realized then that drag-based machines were highly inefficient, that reciprocating cycle machines were worst of all, and that my early version of "laddermill", where I literally imagined the same bedsheets on wooden frames we had used for making our sleds into iceboats, being airborne, traveling in a downwind-upwind loop, constituted a machine that was yet largely drag-based. Since the power cycle traveled with the wind, the relative speed was reduced, reducing power. I saw that one needed to "hold one's ground" against the wind and travel ACROSS the wind. Having working surfaces traveling downwind is like giving up in a fight and retreating. The relative windspeed is reduced, reducing power available. To travel downwind is to lose the battle.

Well I considered making the bedsheet sails more aerodynamic with a shape using ribs (battens) like hang gliders were starting to use, but still, compared to the nice and clean, steady-state operation of the generators I had seen at Niagara Falls, I knew this idea was still lacking. I imagined how ridiculous it would have seemed to have the generators at Niagara falls powered by systems of pulleys reeling in and out (how long could it last?), and could plainly see I was looking at a "cluster-bleep" compared to the steady-state machinery already powering my desklamp 70 miles away.

So the laddermill idea, having a more steady-state operation, was a step ahead of reeling lines in and out, but was still largely drag-based and still had potential for lines tangling in gusty winds etc. It was still a cluster-bleep. It would still never last. It was still a paper-only solution. In essence it was only the seed of an idea, which often look like fully-formed ideas when seen on paper where everything goes as one draws it, but in real life the drawing collapses into reality and doesn't always work as planned at all.

Well, seeing the problems with the reeling lines, and with the more steady-state "improvement" on that: laddermill, I went back to my book on wind energy and decided I had to use lift and airfoils, and that a circular path across the wind was by far most efficient, and the best way to gain a steady-state operation with any hope of sufficiently simple operation to be reliable.

SuperTurbine(R): That was when I decided that a series of propellers on a very long and lightweight driveshaft would be the best way out of the problems I had identified with the previous two ideas: Kite-reeling and laddermill. Using a series of rotors on a drievshaft that could be elevated by a kite, a blimp, by the rotors' own aerodynamic lift, (or towers, or hills) it seemed to me, was the best way to skin the cat in question. Having the heavy components (generator & gearbox if needed) at ground level, with the lightweight components in the sky, along with simplicity, steady-state operation, and good efficiency, were all achieved.

Additional benefits to Superturbine(R) technology:
1) lower blade weight: rotor mass is a cubic function of diameter, whereas swept area = power is only a square function, therefore smaller rotors gather hundreds of watts per pound versus only 10's of watts per pound for large blades;
2) smaller blades spin faster, eliminating the need for a gearbox. Yet Superturbine(R) can sweep the same area of a large rotor, by combining the rotation of many small rotors using only a single moving part - a true breakthrough, and how simple could one ask for a new invention to be? A spinning driveshaft with propellers, properly spaced and properly aimed. A miracle of simplicity!

Therefore Superturbine(R) technology is a leap ahead of today's large turbines, in the sense of using less material and being simpler and potentially more reliable.

Superturbine(R) today: Is a robust and proven concept having garnered a Popular Science "Invention of the Year" award, and two Discovery Channel segments, is patented worldwide and can be used as a component in any wind energy system, whether land-based, terrain-enabled, or airborne. Superturbine(R) is a registered U.S. Trademark.

Any system such as Makani or Shepard SkyWindPower can be enhanced by inclusion of independently-tested and worldwide-patented SuperTurbine(R) technology.

I have done this all myself with no funding from Google or any other corporate or business entity. The California Energy Commission did fund $75,000 to build and test a Superturbine(R) by a professional wind turbine testing organization, so we have independently-measured data that anyone can see if they read the California Energy Commission Independent Assessment Report:

LINK to CEC report on Superturbine(R):
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-500-2007-111/CEC-500-2007-111.PDF

I welcome the assistance or collaboration of any group or company to help save the planet using the Superturbine(R) Breakthrough on the land, on the sea, undersea, or in the air.

Thanks :)
Doug Selsam
Selsam Innovations / Superturbine Inc. / USWINDLABS
2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
Fullerton, CA 92833
714-992-5594
http://www.selsam.com
Doug@Selsam.com
http://www.USWINDLABS.com

That's all for today! :)






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1157 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

Jong Chul Kim
,∗ Korea Aerospace Research Institute
and
Chul Park,∗∗ Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology
Daejeon, Korea

First page only:
http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/CDReadyMAAC09_2124/PV2009_3959.pdf

Second mention online:
Received 12 March 2009; 

revised 16 October 2009; 
accepted 30 November 2009. 
Available online 24 December 2009   [[fee based access for full article]]
Energy, Volume 35, Issue 3, March 2010, Pages 1425-1432  
(Perhaps some of us have library access)

Clip intro:

"It is proposed that electric power be generated from
wind by pulling a ship. A parafoil pulls and tows a ship.
Electrical power is generated by hydraulic turbines installed
on the ship below the water line. The electric
power generated is expended onboard to electrolyze water
to produce hydrogen or methanol or to convert carbon
dioxide into storable forms of liquid. This paper describes
the principle of designing such a system, shows the general
features of such a system, and describes in detail an
example design which produces 0.8 GW. It is shown that
a fleet of such ships operating in two different regions of
the sea can produce much more energy than the world
needs.
"

Personal comment:

1. How big of fleet?

2. I envision large flat barges holding the kite moorings,
other wind turbines, and the hydraulic turbines.

3. The working barges could be dedicated to gathering stored energy.
But secondary uses of the barges are possible: vacation home, sports' training realm,
fishing platforms, sea-cleaning vehicle, PV platforms, retreat home, etc.

4. I have not seen yet but the first page. 

5. And I have the pleasure of welcoming Jong Chul Kim to AWE. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1158 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Basic AWE facts, starting in the 1970's
Doug,
 
Your concept has merit in that you are able to increase the amount of power going into a single electrical generator . . . . electrical equipment and towers do involve considerable expense. It would certainly be interesting to see an airborne version of your technology, perhaps being carried by a balloon . . . sometimes the simple and obvious ideas may actually work out quite well.
 
I did show a photo of your technology to a company (Marine Current Turbines) building underwater wind mills . . . to convert river current and ocean currents to electrical power. While there are 24-companies worldwide testing and building 3-bladed underwater turbine technology, FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) is stingy about giving out operating permits.
 
In wind power, the standard to beat comes from CLIPPER WIND's UK division that has begun work on a 10MW tower-mounted turbine with blades 236-feet long. In wind power, there are applications worldwide for any kind of cost-competitive wind energy technology.
 
 
Harry
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: doug@selsam.com
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:41:46 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Basic AWE facts, starting in the 1970's

 
Hi I just wanted to point out a few moments of initial consideration on this topic I had back in the 1970's, as a teenager.
I'd had many years of building and flying kites, sailing boats, and recently (then), hang-gliding as a background. We used to take old bed sheets & lumber and make sails for our sleds and use them as iceboats. So I was aware of the power in the wind. And I was aware that it was stronger at higher heights.

My First Innocent Beginner Idea: Well having flown a kite or two, starting with my Dad & I had becoming adept at kite-making in Indian Guides as a craft project, I "felt the power" of the string pulling my hand. I'd wonder: "How high can a kite go? Is there any limit?" Since wind energy was making its entry into the utility-scale electricity market, I also wondered if kites etc. might be able to eliminate the heavy and expensive towers, holding those multi-ton gearboxes aloft.
So my first idea, since I was used to reeling kite string in and out on a reel, was to use powered reels to have kites go up and down on reciprocating cycles, taking electrical power from the movement.

Now I had also toured the Niagara Falls hydroelectric plant, and seen the gigantic generators - very impressive: these simple rotating machines were powering our home 70 miles away!

I noted that such large machinery was yet very simple: A single rotating part in steady-state rotation. This simplicity and steady-state operation was, I gleaned, instrumental in maintaining a level of reliability required for a civilization to rely on this exclusively for its electricity.

I also noted that the parts of a wind turbine that gathered power were relatively lightweight, while the electrical part (generator) was heavy. So I sought a design that would not loft the generators, as such designs as promoted by Shepard specified, but instead use the heavy components as anchors. Hanging a wind turbine from a blimp was too obvious to even count as a real idea, in my young mind. If something that simple worked economically, people would already be doing it, I mused. Whether that is correct or incorrect I do not know to this day. (However I will say that hanging Superturbines from a kite or blimp would eliminate the gearboxes making the whole thing lighter.)

So my first reaction to my first and quite obvious idea as a kid: taking power from reeling a kite in and out, morphed into what is now called "laddermill" , as I sought to make my up-and-down kite system into a steady-state machine without a reciprocating cycle.

I also had a book that showed all types of wind turbines known at that time, with their good and bad points, and realized then that drag-based machines were highly inefficient, that reciprocating cycle machines were worst of all, and that my early version of "laddermill" , where I literally imagined the same bedsheets on wooden frames we had used for making our sleds into iceboats, being airborne, traveling in a downwind-upwind loop, constituted a machine that was yet largely drag-based. Since the power cycle traveled with the wind, the relative speed was reduced, reducing power. I saw that one needed to "hold one's ground" against the wind and travel ACROSS the wind. Having working surfaces traveling downwind is like giving up in a fight and retreating. The relative windspeed is reduced, reducing power available. To travel downwind is to lose the battle.

Well I considered making the bedsheet sails more aerodynamic with a shape using ribs (battens) like hang gliders were starting to use, but still, compared to the nice and clean, steady-state operation of the generators I had seen at Niagara Falls, I knew this idea was still lacking. I imagined how ridiculous it would have seemed to have the generators at Niagara falls powered by systems of pulleys reeling in and out (how long could it last?), and could plainly see I was looking at a "cluster-bleep" compared to the steady-state machinery already powering my desklamp 70 miles away.

So the laddermill idea, having a more steady-state operation, was a step ahead of reeling lines in and out, but was still largely drag-based and still had potential for lines tangling in gusty winds etc. It was still a cluster-bleep. It would still never last. It was still a paper-only solution. In essence it was only the seed of an idea, which often look like fully-formed ideas when seen on paper where everything goes as one draws it, but in real life the drawing collapses into reality and doesn't always work as planned at all.

Well, seeing the problems with the reeling lines, and with the more steady-state "improvement" on that: laddermill, I went back to my book on wind energy and decided I had to use lift and airfoils, and that a circular path across the wind was by far most efficient, and the best way to gain a steady-state operation with any hope of sufficiently simple operation to be reliable.

SuperTurbine( R): That was when I decided that a series of propellers on a very long and lightweight driveshaft would be the best way out of the problems I had identified with the previous two ideas: Kite-reeling and laddermill. Using a series of rotors on a drievshaft that could be elevated by a kite, a blimp, by the rotors' own aerodynamic lift, (or towers, or hills) it seemed to me, was the best way to skin the cat in question. Having the heavy components (generator & gearbox if needed) at ground level, with the lightweight components in the sky, along with simplicity, steady-state operation, and good efficiency, were all achieved.

Additional benefits to Superturbine( R) technology:
1) lower blade weight: rotor mass is a cubic function of diameter, whereas swept area = power is only a square function, therefore smaller rotors gather hundreds of watts per pound versus only 10's of watts per pound for large blades;
2) smaller blades spin faster, eliminating the need for a gearbox. Yet Superturbine( R) can sweep the same area of a large rotor, by combining the rotation of many small rotors using only a single moving part - a true breakthrough, and how simple could one ask for a new invention to be? A spinning driveshaft with propellers, properly spaced and properly aimed. A miracle of simplicity!

Therefore Superturbine( R) technology is a leap ahead of today's large turbines, in the sense of using less material and being simpler and potentially more reliable.

Superturbine( R) today: Is a robust and proven concept having garnered a Popular Science "Invention of the Year" award, and two Discovery Channel segments, is patented worldwide and can be used as a component in any wind energy system, whether land-based, terrain-enabled, or airborne. Superturbine( R) is a registered U.S. Trademark.

Any system such as Makani or Shepard SkyWindPower can be enhanced by inclusion of independently- tested and worldwide-patented SuperTurbine( R) technology.

I have done this all myself with no funding from Google or any other corporate or business entity. The California Energy Commission did fund $75,000 to build and test a Superturbine( R) by a professional wind turbine testing organization, so we have independently- measured data that anyone can see if they read the California Energy Commission Independent Assessment Report:

LINK to CEC report on Superturbine( R):
http://www.energy. ca.gov/2007publi cations/CEC- 500-2007- 111/CEC-500- 2007-111. PDF

I welcome the assistance or collaboration of any group or company to help save the planet using the Superturbine( R) Breakthrough on the land, on the sea, undersea, or in the air.

Thanks :)
Doug Selsam
Selsam Innovations / Superturbine Inc. / USWINDLABS
2600 Porter Ave. Unit B
Fullerton, CA 92833
714-992-5594
http://www.selsam. com
Doug@Selsam. com
http://www.USWINDLA BS.com

That's all for today! :)



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1159 From: ciarandennehy20 Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Project
Hey,

I'm a civil engineering student doing a project on HAWP.
I`m am analysing the structural design of the wing generation design.
I want to calculate the moments applied to the supporting structure (wing) of the generator/motor at peak times.
Please correct me if i am wrong,but I believe that peak values for this moment would occur at the initial point of production of power,due to the initial resistance of the generator.
What i would like to know is if there is a formula for calculating this force,and if so what are the subsequent variables?
And,In terms of calculation of lift on an airframe,is the area directly behind a turbine blade insignificant in relation to lift, due to wake?

Any other useful information on the structural analysis of this design would be greatly appreciated.

Ciaran
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1160 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Project
Perhaps a diagram would help us understand your query. In general, loads are smaller on a stalled turbine than on one which is just freewheeling. I expect maximum loads to happen either at maximum power, or during gusts that have to be wasted to avoid overloads. A sophisticated set-up might avoid considerations of internal inertia by spinning at a constant speed, using pitch changes and electrical controls to maintain both efficiency and frequency, while varying amperage as the square of wind speed.

Bob Stuart

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1161 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal

 

Help in translation is invited for all AWE matters from Jong Chul Kim ( also search: JongChul Kim, Jong Kim, Joinc Kim, joinckim, ...)  

Paraphrasing his words about himself:

He has been a rearch engineer of Korea Aerospace Research Institute since 1984. He earned a Dr. Ingenieur from  L'École Nationale Supérieure de l'Aéronautique et de l'Espace at Toulouse, France.    He had received a presidential aware for Science and Technology Promotion. Also awared: two Prime Ministerial Awards of meritoriousness for 1993 Daejun Expo and for Maritime Traffic Safety promotion.

Since 2006 he has been highly concerned with global warming and solutions for renewable energy.   He has arranged his inventions  as "strategic plans to fight global warming with some presentation at

http://blog.naver.com/joinckim/110021469190    where there is one graphic found so far concerning tethred air parafoil pulling hydro turbines for generation of electricity. The graphic suggest 100 m  wingspan parafoil puller.

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1162 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Project
Ciaran,
 
If the wing were flying like a kite, what would be the maximum tension on the line for the particular size of wing? The general formula is 0.5 x drag coefficient x air density x cross sectional area of kite or wing x square of wind velocity x 1/gravity.
 
To calculate air density: pressure (psi) x 144 x {1/(53.35 x air temp if deg R)}
53.35 is an air constant
If air temp is 60-deg F, absolute temp is 460 + 60 = 520 deg R.
If the wing is a few hundred feet above ground, use 14.5-psi for air pressure.
density = (14.5 x 144)/(53.35 x 520) = 0.07526-lb/cu.ft 
 
NOTE: coefficient of lift is much greater than coefficient of drag . . . for certain airfoil designs, a coefficient of lift of 0.8 can translate to a coefficient of drag of 0.014.
 
Peak line tension will occur when wing is held stationary . . . when crank is at inner dead center or outer dead center.
 
 
Harry
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: ciarandennehy20@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:23:24 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] Project

 
Hey,

I'm a civil engineering student doing a project on HAWP.
I`m am analysing the structural design of the wing generation design.
I want to calculate the moments applied to the supporting structure (wing) of the generator/motor at peak times.
Please correct me if i am wrong,but I believe that peak values for this moment would occur at the initial point of production of power,due to the initial resistance of the generator.
What i would like to know is if there is a formula for calculating this force,and if so what are the subsequent variables?
And,In terms of calculation of lift on an airframe,is the area directly behind a turbine blade insignificant in relation to lift, due to wake?

Any other useful information on the structural analysis of this design would be greatly appreciated.

Ciaran




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1163 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal


1.   Design: CO2Transformation using High Altitude Wind Power over Ocean
See in this group's Files section in folder "Kim"   for four-page article.

2.    KIM Jongchul, PCT/KR2006/004271 "Electric Power Generation System using Hydro Turbine pulled by Paraglider"


(WO 2008/047963) ELECTRIC POWER GENERATION SYSTEM USING HYDRO TURBINE TRACTED BY PARAGLIDER   [      Same:   http://tinyurl.com/KimJongchulPCT        ] 24.04.2008 F03D 9/00 PCT/KR2006/004271
KIM, Jongchul
 

As an electric power generation system using the high altitude wind which is more steady and stronger at the high altitude up to about 15Km above sea level, the power generation system consists of a rotary generator (8) derived by a hydro turbine (7) attached under a ship-like floating platform (5) towed by a parafoil (1) flying at high altitude, controlled by a servomotor (3), which is remotely controlled through electric wire or wireless communication. Accordingly, the diameter of the turbine driven by sea water is reduced as 1/20 in comparison with the windmill which uses directly high altitude wind, and the periodical maintenance becomes convenient by locating the heavy mechanical moving parts near the surface of sea.

3. One reference  Jong Chul Kim cited in one  "1."  above   had URL not working.  Here is a tiny URL for the reference:
http://tinyurl.com/LansdorpCOMPARISON    for "Comparison of concepts for high-altitude wind energy generation with ground based generator"

 

 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1164 From: harry valentine Date: 2/19/2010
Subject: Re: Wind Power Generation With a Parawing on Ships, a Proposal
South Korea has been big into ship building . . . . mainly container ships and a few oil tankers.
 
Many decades (perhaps centuries) ago, certain Polynesians used kites to pull canoes with outriggers between islands in the Pacific.
 
 
 
 
Harry


 


 

       
 
 

 
 
 




All your Hotmail contacts on your phone. Try it now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1165 From: ciarandennehy20 Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Project
Hey,
Thanks for any help.

Here are a few diagrams trying to explain exactly what I am trying to do.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4372963100_2237f4de71_b.jpg
This is my understanding on just the basic principles of a generator powered by a blade.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4029/4372212259_b7b4e0cf0c_b.jpg
An explanation of the forces i am trying to calculate

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2735/4372365847_5f753b2545_b.jpg
I understand that i might be advantageous to have the blade at the trailing edge of the airfoil,and this is only a drawing of a basic system to try and explain it to my lecturer.


What I want to calculate is the maximum point loads excerpted on an airframe supporting a generator like this.
Basically so i can design a frame to support a generator,which will transfer the loads exerted on the generator into the supporting structure (the wing),without it all falling apart.

From this calculation of point loads,which will be transferred through the supporting structure,I want to then assess the best possible material ,and design of that material ,that will provide the needed amount of stiffness to withstand these loads,which will not fail under the total amount of shear force transferred into it due to it supporting the generator .

Also,what I would like to calculate is the area of airfoil needed producing lift/drag to support the weight of the generator,and if that area has to be greater than is needed for lift to provide an opposing amount of stability to the design so that the rotational effect of the generator may be suppressed.

So basically Is the area directly behind a swept blade on a wing completely useless ,due to the interrupted airflow(wake) ,in providing lift to the whole system,or dose it provide a percentage of lift in comparison to an area which dose not have a swept blade interrupting the airflow over and under it?

I am trying to design this system from a basic structural point of view using moments and point loads and applying them to a structure which will support them,I have only a basic understanding of aerodynamics,so this is not a comprehensive analysis of this system.

So ,if I have wind speed ,temperature, blade dimensions, blade weight , blade rpm, generator weight and capacity of generator.Is there a formula which will calculate the resulting moment created?

Sorry for being so vague in my first post.

Ciaran
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1166 From: harry valentine Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Project
Hi Ciaran,
 
 
You're initially dealing with a trial-and-error problem
 
1) Pump the wing up with helium to improve buoyancy
 
2) You need an adjustable airfoil on one side to counter the torque reaction
 
3) Consider using counter-rotating props (possibly a co-axial system) to neutralize the torque reaction
 
 
Harry
 

To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: ciarandennehy20@yahoo.com
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:53:43 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] RE:Project

 

Hey,
Thanks for any help.

Here are a few diagrams trying to explain exactly what I am trying to do.

http://farm5. static.flickr. com/4030/ 4372963100_ 2237f4de71_ b.jpg
This is my understanding on just the basic principles of a generator powered by a blade.

http://farm5. static.flickr. com/4029/ 4372212259_ b7b4e0cf0c_ b.jpg
An explanation of the forces i am trying to calculate

http://farm3. static.flickr. com/2735/ 4372365847_ 5f753b2545_ b.jpg
I understand that i might be advantageous to have the blade at the trailing edge of the airfoil,and this is only a drawing of a basic system to try and explain it to my lecturer.

What I want to calculate is the maximum point loads excerpted on an airframe supporting a generator like this.
Basically so i can design a frame to support a generator,which will transfer the loads exerted on the generator into the supporting structure (the wing),without it all falling apart.

From this calculation of point loads,which will be transferred through the supporting structure,I want to then assess the best possible material ,and design of that material ,that will provide the needed amount of stiffness to withstand these loads,which will not fail under the total amount of shear force transferred into it due to it supporting the generator .

Also,what I would like to calculate is the area of airfoil needed producing lift/drag to support the weight of the generator,and if that area has to be greater than is needed for lift to provide an opposing amount of stability to the design so that the rotational effect of the generator may be suppressed.

So basically Is the area directly behind a swept blade on a wing completely useless ,due to the interrupted airflow(wake) ,in providing lift to the whole system,or dose it provide a percentage of lift in comparison to an area which dose not have a swept blade interrupting the airflow over and under it?

I am trying to design this system from a basic structural point of view using moments and point loads and applying them to a structure which will support them,I have only a basic understanding of aerodynamics, so this is not a comprehensive analysis of this system.

So ,if I have wind speed ,temperature, blade dimensions, blade weight , blade rpm, generator weight and capacity of generator.Is there a formula which will calculate the resulting moment created?

Sorry for being so vague in my first post.

Ciaran




Not using Hotmail on your phone? Why not? Get it now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1167 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: X-38
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1168 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: X-38

Other ship traction

Newsletter Archive

SkySails Newsletter 03/2008  [PDF, ca. 0,5MB]

SkySails Newsletter 02/2008  [PDF, ca. 0,5MB]

SkySails Newsletter 01/2008  [PDF, ca. 0,5MB]

SkySails Newsletter 01/2007  [PDF, ca. 0,4MB]

SkySails Newsletter 04/2006  [PDF, ca. 0,3MB]

SkySails Newsletter 03/2006  [PDF, ca. 0,4MB]

SkySails Newsletter 02/2006  [PDF, ca. 0,4MB]

SkySails Newsletter 01/2006  [PDF, ca. 0,2MB]

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1169 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: X-38

Press Release

Embargo Period: 6 October 2009, 12 noon 
 

First Fishing Trawler to be Fitted with SkySails

Parlevliet & Van der Plas B.V., one of Europe's biggest fishing companies, turns to innovative towing-kite propulsion to save fuel. 

Hamburg / Wismar / Sassnitz, Germany / Katwijk, Netherlands,

6 October 2009.

Diederik Parlevliet, the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Parlevliet & Van der Plas B.V., one of the largest European fishing companies with headquarters in Katwijk in the Netherlands, and Stephan Wrage, the Managing Director of the Hamburg-based manufacturer SkySails, signed a purchase agreement on 6 October for the world's first towing-kite wind propulsion system to be installed on a fishing trawler. 

SkySails propulsion is scheduled to be placed in operation early next year aboard the ROS-171 "Maartje Theadora" fishing trawler. "We are looking forward to significant fuel savings by using the SkySails-System, particularly during those extended transfer runs to the African coast and in the South Pacific, not to mention the potential savings during actual fishing operations," says Diederik Parlevliet, "while at the same time enabling us to reduce enormous amounts of CO2 emissions and make a big contribution to safeguarding the climate." 

At 141 meters in length, the "Maartje Theadora" is Germany's largest fishing vessel and is operated by the Sassnitz-based Westbank Hochseefischerei GmbH, a member of the Parlevliet & Van der Plas Group. The ship has two MaK main engines that produce a total of 8,640 kW of power. The vessel will be fitted with a 160m² SkySails propulsion system like those already in use on cargo ships. Parlevliet & Van der Plas and the systems manufacturer SkySails will be evaluating if and in what way the wind propulsion system needs to be modified for use on fishing vessels on board the "Maartje Theadora" as part of a pilot project funded by the European Fisheries Fund (EFF) and the German state of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania. 

SkySails propulsion previously underwent pilot testing for a year and a half aboard the cargo ships "Beluga SkySails" owned by the Beluga Group and the "Michael A." from the Wessels Shipping Company. Not only did the testing confirm the viability of this towing-kite propulsion concept on board,                the measurements of the tractive force generated make the SkySails-System the most capable and effective wind propulsion system in the world. Thanks to its unprecedented physical properties, the system produces between 5 and 25 times more power per square meter than conventional sail propulsion. Even a 160m2 SkySails generates a tractive force of 8 metric tons, which is comparable to the thrust of an Airbus A318 engine. 

SkySails is currently fitting its innovative towing-kite propulsion system onto a series of three new cargo ships belonging to the Wessels Shipping Company of Haren an der Ems. Two months ago the "Theseus" became the first ship in this series to enter service with the SkySails. Meanwhile, SkySails is working full steam to expand production in order to be able to produce larger quantities of the system starting at the beginning of next year. SkySails and the venerable Zeppelin Group established a joint venture called "Zeppelin SkySails Sales & Service" at the beginning of 2009, which began operations in March and handles the worldwide sales and service of SkySails propulsion. All SkySails-Systems can be maintained and rapidly supplied with replacement parts across the globe using the existing service network of the highly respected marine engine supplier Zeppelin Power Systems.  
 

About Parlevliet & Van der Plas B.V. 

Parlevliet & Van der Plas B.V. was originally established as a trading company in Katwijk/Netherlands in 1949 by Dirk Parlevliet and the brothers Dirk and Jan van der Plas. Today, 60 years after its founding, Parlevliet & Van der Plas has expanded to become one of Europe's largest companies in the international commercial fishing and processing industry. In addition to its Dutch offices and facilities in Valkenburg, Ijmuiden and Katwijk, the group also operates subsidiaries in Germany, Lithuania and the United Kingdom. 

The establishment in 1986 of the wholly owned subsidiary Doggerbank Seefischerei GmbH in Bremerhaven marked the launch of the Dutch group's unprecedented business growth and involvement in the fishing industry in Germany. Today the cities of Bremerhaven and Sassnitz are the headquarters of 12 subsidiaries that include a fleet of 6 deep-sea trawlers, Europe's most modern fish processing center, the company Euro Baltic Fischverarbeitungs GmbH that processes an annual volume of 50,000 tons of herring, a trading company to handle the global marketing of products from the processing center and the group's own catches, two cold storage facilities and a brokerage office. 

Parlevliet & Van der Plas covers the entire range of commercial fishing pro-ducts and services – from catch to delivery.  

One of its major corporate strategy objectives is the development and implementation of measures to ensure a set of sustainable fishing policies in Europe and, for several years already, in the Pacific region. It was with this in mind that Parlevliet & Van der Plas joined with other European fishing companies to establish the Pelagic Freezer Trawler Association. The association has published a policy paper that addresses such key issues as overfishing, discards, the environment, fishing laws and rights, product quality and employment policies. 
 

About SkySails GmbH & Co. KG 

SkySails develops, manufactures and markets an internationally patented wind propulsion system for ships based on large towing kites. Depending on wind conditions, a ship's annual average fuel costs can be reduced by 10% to 35% using the SkySails-System. Under optimal wind conditions, fuel consumption can be reduced at times by up to 50%. The SkySails-System can be installed as an auxiliary wind propulsion system on virtually all existing ships and new buildings. Even fishing trawlers and superyachts of over 30 meters in length can be fitted with SkySails propulsion. 

SkySails was founded in 2001 and currently has 79 employees. Lead investors are the renowned ship financing company Jan Luiken Oltmann Gruppe GmbH & Co. KG based in Leer and the highly respected marine engine supplier    Zeppelin Power Systems GmbH & Co. KG. Furthermore and besides private investors, the group of SkySails investors also includes numerous notable shipping companies such as Triton Seatrade, Reederei Wessels, Reederei Jüngerhans, Briese Schiffahrt, and Reederei Opielok. 
 

Press Contact 

SkySails GmbH & Co. KG

Veritaskai 3

21079 Hamburg

Germany 

Phone: +49 40 / 702 99-444

Fax: +49 40 / 702 99-333

E-Mail: press@skysails.com

www.skysails.com

Parlevliet & Van der Plas B.V.

Voorschoterweg 31

2235 SE Valkenburg ZH

The Netherlands 

Phone: +31 71 / 789 0000

Fax: +31 71 / 789 0001

E-Mail: fish@pp-group.eu

www.pp-group.eu 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1170 From: Bob Stuart Date: 2/20/2010
Subject: Re: Project
I'd put  the blades well behind and somewhat above the generator support.  That way, they'd get relatively undisturbed air, and contribute to stability. As you suspect, lift would be poor right behind the turbine - as drawn, the tips would be doing most of the work.
The main airfoil supporting the generator should probably be assymetrical to resist torque, but looks to be well stabilized by the kite bridle. 
The  loads on the base of the generator are a combination of the generator weight, the unbalanced loads on the prop shaft, the wind pressure on it, and the torque.  The torque is easily found from  the  power and RPM expected, and are handy for the wing assymetry calculations, but the shaft loads are probably the big ones.  With a  trailing turbine, you could use hinges to avoid the unbalanced loads, but would have high drag forces anyway. 

Best,
Bob Stuart