Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES10978to11027 Page 116 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10978 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10979 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10980 From: David Lang Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10981 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10982 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10983 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Beecher Moore's Flying Machine

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10984 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10985 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Shrimp Tail Mothra

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10986 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: The 1900 article in Popular Science

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10987 From: dougselsam Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10988 From: dave santos Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10989 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10990 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10991 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Funcheon free-going powered kiting

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10992 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10993 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10994 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10995 From: dave santos Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10996 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Shrimp Tail Mothra

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10997 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10998 From: dougselsam Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10999 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11000 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11001 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11002 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: The concept of a negative I.Q.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11003 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11004 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11005 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: The concept of a negative I.Q.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11006 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: FlygenKite, update

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11007 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11008 From: Andrew Beattie Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11009 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11010 From: Andrew Beattie Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11011 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11012 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11013 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11014 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11015 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11016 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11017 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11018 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11019 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11020 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11021 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11022 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11023 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11024 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11025 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11026 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11027 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10978 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Largest kite ever flown in 2013
Largest kite ever did her maiden "flight" in 2013.

Her name: Prelude
from Shell International, 
a big oil and natural gas company. 
Prelude's maiden flight had several powered anchors 
and operating with a high-count tether set. The fluid 
wrestled: air and water. Her wing ~her hull~ is truly huge, long, massive!  Her wing intends to tolerate huge sea and wind states.

Part of Shell's portfolio is
including some renewable energy attention, but yet
mostly on biofuels; we directly have encouraged Shell to 
invest in KiteEnergy/Airborne Wind Energy via our note
to her Aviation sector; they promised to reply.

~ JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10979 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013

Would some fitting engineer comment on whether the Prelude's focus on LNG could be reasonably converted to handling liquefying of hydrogen obtained by using kite energy and solar energy over the at-sea water resource?   Thanks. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10980 From: David Lang Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013
JoeF,

In considering my concept of the "Hydrogen Trawler" of many years ago (a kite driven, sea-going device/ship intended solely to electrolyze sea-water to obtain liquified H2), I was forced to perform an economic analysis of the scheme (as all AWE proponents should be doing for their own "pet ideas").

The Hydrogen Trawler's break-even economic viability boiled down to whether the trawlers could be automated or had to carry crew….this of course makes this scheme (at least in my analysis) economically marginal. That said, I am not a qualified maritime expert, and my analysis was in variance with one done by a principle of the Exquadrum corporation (who had the idea independently of, but almost simultaneously with, myself); this variance was to some degree qualitative, albeit the two analyses never compared analytically.

DaveL





Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10981 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013
Thanks, DaveL.    
Jong Chul Kim keeps a light on toward the H2 and methane via kite systems ... while at sea: 

As to the LNG in Shell's Prelude floating factory, I am wondering if exterior feed of gaseous hydrogen could be processed by Prelude to liquid. The particular arrangements locked into their LNG processor may not be able to be easily converted to liquefy hydrogen.  Exploring. 

JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10982 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10983 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/16/2014
Subject: Beecher Moore's Flying Machine
File:PSM V58 D631 The beecher moore flying machine.png

See also the page: 
having some original text and excellent image.  However, the shown written text on the page is NOT about Beecher Moore's Flying Machine. 
Rather: 
"Mr. Beecher Moore, of Buffalo, N. Y., has originated the very interesting machine shown in Fig. 13. Mr. Moore states that the working model which he constructed was charged with a slow-burning mixture of saltpeter, sulphur and charcoal, and would fly about 500 feet, or until the mixture was burned out. lie claims that it sails along evenly, balancing perfectly, and that it may be steered by the rudder. He prefers to fill the tank of the car with liquid air, on the ground that it furnishes a maximum of stored power with light weight. The air is exhausted and expanded through the nozzle at the top of the pipe. Mr. Moore says:
"The nozzle is placed at the top of the pipe, so that the push will act directly on the string of the kite and not push the car out of plumb, nor disturb the equilibrium of the machine. The kite is attached to the machine by wires, which allows it to balance itself automatically. Tin's property would be destroyed if it was attached rigidly to the balance of the machine. The method of attaching the wires is original and adds to the stability of the kite. The wheels are not necessary for the locomotion of the machine in the air, but are necessary in starting and alighting. In starting the machine, it is placed in an open road, and when the power is applied it runs along on the ground, gathering speed and giving the kite lifting power. When the machine has attained the necessary speed, it will leave the ground at a slight angle and continue in the air as long as it is forced ahead at sufficient speed to sustain its weight on the aeroplane. In alighting, the power should be shut off slowly until the machine settles to the ground, where it would slow down and stop."
Mr. Moore is a strong advocate of the rocket-like form of propulsion for flying machines. He admits that it is wasteful as far as expense is concerned, but contends that it will make a machine go where propellers will fail. He claims that the propeller "is very wasteful of power from friction of the blades in the air, and from 'end stroke,' or currents of air set in motion in the wrong direction." He says further:
"I have studied and experimented extensively with small aeroplane machines of every conceivable shape to test their balancing power, and have concluded that it is impossible to build a compact aeroplane machine that will balance and be under control in the air, with present known means. The aeroplane machine of the average inventor consists of aeroplanes elevated in various manners, and most of the weight arranged below to give them stability and keep them from upsetting. This may appear all right in theory, but actual experiments will at once demonstrate that any compact aeroplane machine, with sufficient aeroplane surface to support the accompanying weight, will sway, turn sideways and upset, with all manner of erratic and unexpected movements."

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10984 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer

Text of that page is mostly about Moore's machine, not the trolley system.  On prior two pages is found the appropriate text about the "trolley" flyer:

===================================


"Of a more practical character is the 'trolley flyer' of Daniel C. Funcheon, of Valderde, Col., illustrated by Fig. 9. A drum is supported on a platform and hung from an aeroplane. Around the drum coils a wire that may be made to convey a current of electricity for propelling the mechanism. Of course, the machine would require propellers and balancing devices, which are not shown in the drawing.

set, and the wire simply to support the machine at the start. When the motor developed one and a half horse-power the stroke of the wings was sufficient to raise it and cause a jump along the wire. The total weight of the apparatus was about seventy-five pounds, and the motor could be run to develop three horse-power for a little time, and with that power it flew along in an interesting manner."


================================


My early-forum post about driving kited wings by bulled loop from ground power seems to resonate with Daniel Funcheon's trolley system, except I fix the wing on the loop and drive the loop from ground. Such method with reversals is a choice for maintaining arch in calm; here we are looking at an arch holding one wing, but an arch could hold any number of kixels and driven for flight in calm. Domes may be seen in some cases as a complex of arches. 

~JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10985 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Shrimp Tail Mothra
As an addition to elasticating the trailing edge tethering of a mothra kixel,
collective trailing edge tensioning could be brought by running trailing edge load bridling lines...

Ahhh
just watch the video for a better idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9VJii0vUc&feature=share&list=UU2eAHVBBCoO19xBuGOY73Zw

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10986 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: The 1900 article in Popular Science
The 1900 article in Popular Science, Vol. 58 started with the following note: 


"THE POPULAR SCIENCE MONTHLY.

RECENT PROGRESS IN AERIAL NAVIGATION.
By CHARLES H. COCHRANE, M. E.

T

HE recent successful trips of the Zeppelin airship make it appropriate to review and illustrate some of the less known attempts at aerial navigation. Somewhat similar in plan to Count von Zeppelin's enormous airship is the dirigible flying-machine shown in Fig. 1, with which at various times during 1897 and 1898 Dr. K. I. Danilewsky, of Charkov, Russia, made excursions. The object of making the balloon sausage-shaped was, of course, that its forward end might be brought toward the wind, and then, with the nose pointed upwards, as in the illustration, its under surface served somewhat as that of a kite."

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10987 From: dougselsam Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
Dave S.
You make the claim a SuperTurbine(R) driveshaft can't work,  But provide no evidence.  Then you say pulling ropes is better.

I try to tell you in pictures and words, and the patents explain this at great length, but you do not seem to understand:  The driveshaft IS fibers being pulled (tethers).  Just that they are being pulled in a circle.  And the driveshaft in many embodiments, is not usually a thin single shaft at the center, but a larger-diameter lattice structure, which in many embodiments consists solely of struts or tethers pulling in a helical arrangement.  The spectrum of "driveshafts" and "Tower/driveshafts" in my patents range from a single rope that spins around its own axis, to regular hollow driveshafts, to lattice structures, to lattice structures that aerodynamicially contribute to rotation, to simple tethers extending from one blade to the next, arranged in a helical drive train all the way to the ground.  The materials of these helical tethers, as well as the forces on them, would be similar to the forces on the tethers of any other AWE system.  So, once again, I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.  What you have been saying about SuperTurbine(R) driveshafts, from day-one, has made no sense whatsoever, and it makes me wonder if you have ever read my patents at all.  Wish I could find a kinder way of saying that, sorry.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10988 From: dave santos Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
Doug,

Review: Wind turbines on a long drive-shaft date back at least two millennia in China and four centuries in Holland. I developed my own designs for multi-turbines on a shaft around 1990 (as direct-into-the-wind sailing toys, with multiple public demos, and original materials collected by the Smithsonian. Dave Culp turned me on to looping kites as a hot AWE idea in 2006, and I have made and tested many variants. The looping wing idea is decades old. Your name never came up in those circles. Resemblance to the SuperTurbine is absurd and after the fact.

New: With the new looping PTO methods, prototype generators are being consistently driven by looping parafoils. Yesterday, we hit a milestone of continuous passive-autonomous cycling of a ~1kW design-rating unit, by looping a 6m2 parafoil under a 10m2 pilot-lifter, for a big step up from all the old proof-of-concept ~10-100W passive AWES. Ed will post video soon.

We sincerely hope to see your new prototypes progressing as well, for side-by-side testing someday soon,

daveS


On Friday, January 17, 2014 8:27 AM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10989 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Fig.32: latticework structure.

 

PierreB




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10990 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Funcheon's Trolley Flyer

Large drawing of D.C. Funcheon's flying trolley from a patent, issued March 19, 1895. 

Filed: September 17, 1894. 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US536174-0.png

Patent title: 

MEANS FOR PROPELLING, GUIDING, AND CONTROLLING AIR-SHIPS

US 536174 A


Indicates a means to keep wing off the ground by use of pole-held ropes; such generic means for kite systems has many uses, including avoidance of low obstacles, self-relaunching after downing from calm, keeping rotors from slapping earth, keeping ground open for agriculture or other activities, assistance for launching kite wings, and testing aerodynamics of prototype wings. 

Note again: Funcheon had motor with wing, perhaps energized by electricity from the ground.  But keep open the option of fixing wing to cable and then driving cable from prime mover when the cable is a loop perhaps, if wanted. 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10991 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Funcheon free-going powered kiting
Daniel C. Funcheon

also had an interest in powered kiting with pod-anchor holding the prime mover pulling the kited wing:   FLYING MACHINE


This is a kind of preamble to later decades when FF-AWE was more appreciated by flying the pod (wing really) in different wind than the upper kited wing. Funcheon was not seeing the AWES potential of his device. 

Funcheon seems to be a leader toward what we have today: powered paragliders with the pilot pod carrying the power unit while kiting the upper wing.  

The lower wing or the upper wing may actually be wing sets with counts of one or more to high count; and the connecting tether set may be simple or complex. 

Stopping the power driving and get gliding and soaring. 



Review: 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10992 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US6616402.pdf
Serpentine Wind Turbine
Douglas Spriggs Selsam

Yet see all 52 Figs.  

Fig. 32 :

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10993 From: Rod Read Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
NO No NO,
I always go back and look.
It's figure 88 U.S. Patent Number 6,616,402is the one that get's closest.... but oh dahhhhrnit... you bu&&£r it up every single time linking the blade roots to the axis of rotation.... they totally don't need to do that ...
It's an inherent learned must do from your solid wind power background.
You too Dave S. let flickin go of that axis and trust that you'll keep spinning in tension.
Why I AUGHTA!!!!

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10994 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
[[Correction, there is a count of 105 figures.]]   Here is Fig. 88, mentioned by RodR: 

one of Doug's patents: 


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10995 From: dave santos Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite


The nearest patent to the latest looping-wing AWES is Payne (fig. 4), but the kPower version avoids the crank (using a retracting belt-drive). The SuperTurbine, with its " series of horizontal axis type rotors is distributed along the upper section of an elongate torque transmitting tower/driveshaft", is not even close. See Payne fig. 4 below-



On Friday, January 17, 2014 2:02 PM, "joefaust333@gmail.com" <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10996 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Shrimp Tail Mothra
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10997 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/17/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
https://www.google.com/patents/US3987987
...then click small images at left. Then in stream, click images and very large size might be displayed.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10998 From: dougselsam Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
Dave S. said of a looping foil: "Resemblance to the SuperTurbine is absurd and after the fact."
I say that is wrong: If one "looping foil" is good, more is better.  If an unbalanced single looping foil is good, a balanced set of looping foils is better.  And a stack of thoise balanced sets is a SuperTurbine(R).  I hate to break it to you but the looping foil is old news and optimization of that concept is much further along than what you are doing.

The problem you have seeing this is you are so far back in the history of wind energy that you don't know where it is headed.  It's almost like you are stuck in the B.C. era.  With a bag on your head, or wearing a special helmet that only allows you to use knowledge from before 2000 years ago...  Like humans before the Roman Empire, you're just now grasping the fact that surfaces in the wind can be used to generate useful power, and so you're just "discovering" that crosswind travel of the foil captures more swept area and therefore more power, your "just discovering" the circular path.  (WHoaaa, crosswind!  Who knew? - oh yeah that is how it's been done for 2000 years now, and counting...)
Attempts to invent in wind energy is so funny.  They just ALWAYS have the same dumb characteristics, over and over and over again, and you can never tell any of these people anything.  They always "know it all" and are always "about to blow the world away" with their superior thinking, usually involving high-solidity, often with cloth surfaces, often using reciprocating cycles, and often speckled with high-tech-sounding irrelevant features like maglev bearings, whale bumps, generators at the blade tips, blades with propellers on them, etc.
As the saying goes, "Good luck with that"...


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10999 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

"...often speckled with high-tech-sounding irrelevant features like maglev bearings, whale bumps, generators at the blade tips, blades with propellers on them,"several rotors on the same shaft,etc.

 

PierreB






Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11000 From: Robert Copcutt Date: 1/18/2014
Subject: Re: Largest kite ever flown in 2013
Boiling point of methane = -164C or 109K
" " hydrogen = -253C or 20K
" " Ammonia = -33C or 240K

That extra 89K makes a huge difference and requires additional
refrigeration steps. Things get rapidly more difficult as you approach
0K. Far better to turn the hydrogen into methane or ammonia.

Robert


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11001 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Nice Try Pierre, but when I say "irrelevant" I mean already-disproven, or easy-to-show non-suitability.

The Maglev bearings?  A typical "Hail-Mary" feature typical of squirrel-cage-type vertical-axis turbines.  After decades of vertical-axis turbines, few are still turning, and with ball-bearings being cheap and offering minimal drag, there has not been a true reason to even use maglev bearings.  We've heard the press-releases.  How many wind turbines use maglev bearings today?  Zero.

The "Whale Bumps"?  Well again, decades of turbulators and boundary-layer trips have been used on airplanes and sometimes wind turbines, so why would we start glomming large blogs onto the leading edges of wind turbine blades now? 


Please let me explain:  Wind energy is "green".   Whales are also seen as "green" (Don't kill the whales!"), so, naturally if someone figured out a way to associate "whales" with "wind energy" it MUST be good, right?  And that is about as far as the logic goes.  Green-feeling + green-feeling = "science".  The press-release-"science" said we'd get, what, 20% more power from the whale bumps?  How many wind turbines use whale bumps today?  Zero.  Thank you.

Blades with propellers on them.  Well, OK but that is redundant.  The blade can just turn a generator.  It doesn't need another layer of spinning foils powering spinning foils.   Having airfoils operating redundantly at two scales reduces total efficiency while adding complexity.  Also, if the first foils represents a "blade tip" as advertised, it should be traveling at 120 MPH minimum.  A 6:1 TSR for the rotors, puts your blades at supersonic speeds.  So the redundant airfoils logically push the secondary airfoils (propellers) into the supersonic realm, where efficiency is low and noise is high, not to mention the centrifugal and dynamic stresses.  Unless, the primary foil is traveling at only, say 60 MPH, at which point it does NOT represent a blade tip, but instead a blade midsection.  Why not add a tip to the blade so it makes more power, then connect ot to a generator?  That explains why the OLD idea of placing propellers on a wind turbine blade never caught on.


Multiple rotors on the same shaft, on the other hand, is a relatively NEW idea, NOT an old disproven idea, offering a way to increase swept area without increasing diameter, maintaining a high native RPM, without the use of a gearbox, or, if a gearbox is used, a lower gear ratio, meaning lower cost, and higher reliability. 


Multiple rotors on the same shaft is a very broad category, which could lend itself to any gyrocopter-based AWE scheme, in that if one level is shown to work, multiple levels can be stacked, using driveshafts to connect the levels and transmit power to a single generator.


And of course, as explained to Dave S. in a recent post, the SuperTurbine(R) concept extends to sets of tethers in a rotating, helical arrangement, or to vertical-axis blades acting as tethers for horizontal-axis-type rotors.

:)

Doug S.




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11002 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: The concept of a negative I.Q.
It occurs to me that if someone makes a wrong statement, that is negative intelligence, or intelligence multiplied by (-1).

If an ant identifies a breadcrumb as a food source and communicates this fact to the rest of the ant nest, many ants will be convinced to travel to the breadcrumb location, and it will be brought back to the nest as a food source.  The ant that discovered the breadcrumb had stumbled upon a piece of positive "intelligence", and successfully communicated that positive intelligence to the other ants, the intelligence was acted upon, and so therefore, you might congratulate that first ant as demonstrating some small degree of "intelligence".   You might even assign a positive number as an "I.Q." for this ant, who acquired and successfully communicated intelligence that turned out to be correct.

However, if the ant wandered about aimlessly, never finding any food, and came back to the nest with no info, that would be an example of a LACK of intelligence - we might assign an I/Q/ value of zero (0) to the ant that wandered but never found any food. 

On the third hand, imagine an ant stumbling across a colorful pebble.  For whatever reason, the ant becomes convinced that the pebble is actually food, and communicates that wrong "fact" to the rest of the nest.  The fellow ants obligingly follow the first ant to the pebble, whereupon they are sorry to inform the first ant that they have all wasted their time and energy, and that the pebble is inedible.

A fourth case might be that "a majority consensus" of the ants believed that the pebble WAS food, and they all wasted even MORE time and energy bringing it back to the nest.  Later they realized it was not food, and wasted still more time and energy disposing of it.  That is intelligence multiplied by a NEGATIVE number.  I submit that this type off behavior characterizes a NEGATIVE I.Q.

I propose that "scientists" squandering the name of science to advertise something a as a "FACT", that later turns out to NOT be a fact, can be accurately characterized as having a NEGATIVE I.Q.

If "global warming" turns out to NOT happen in the coming decades, then congratulations to all the "scientists" who contributed negative intelligence to the knowledge base of humanity.  In the event that the planet continues cooling or even stops warming, you should be duly rewarded with the label of a "Negative I.Q." Congratulations on wasting the energy of the nest, on a useless pebble.

If you say a certain type of turbine is good, and it in fact sucks, well, you just don't know the facts.  What you have contributed is a NEGATIVE intelligence, and congratulations, you exhibit a NEGATIVE I.Q.

If you are a well-funded team that declared you would have a 10 KW airborne wind turbine on the market "within 2 years", and after 2 years passes you are no closer than you were 2 years ago, that original statement turned out to be NEGATIVE intelligence.  Enough instances of negative intelligence indicates a NEGATIVE I.Q.

We can safely say that most statements made by most AWE teams have been inaccurate, and that none except Pacific has even made an attempt to say they have a product available.  So I'd have to say the field is rife with NEGATIVE intelligence, and overall, if I had to assign an I.Q to the totality of the teams, it would be a negative number.

Another example of "NEGATIVE INTELLIGENCE" is the old idea that stomach ulcers are caused by "stress".  Since the inception of antibiotics, millions of doctors combined, failed to notice that ulcer patients that happened to have been placed on antibiotics were cured of their ulcers.  Only after billions of dollars spent on Tagamet and unnecessary surgeries did ONE doctor figure out that ulcers were bacterial infections, (Heliobacter Pylori) and that the best treatment was simply a regimen of antibiotics.

I submit that all the doctors before the one that discovered the bacterial aspect contributed either zero intelligence, or passed along NEGATIVE intelligence.  The fact that millions of doctors did not notice what ulcers even WERE (bacterial infections), over that many years, while prescribing inappropriate treatments including even SURGERY indicates to me that, sadly, humanity is capable of acting with ZERO iintelligence, exhibiting a ZERO I.Q. or even a NEGATIVE I.Q., for decades on end, with millions of people participating.  All these participants would insist that they have "intelligence" but I say the evidence says otherwise.  I say, for that many years, that many doctors, combined, exhibited ZERO inteoligence and in fact contributed NEGATIVE INTELLIGENCE.  One might also just call it "stupidity".

Like the old saying from the bathroom wall "eat shit, 1,000,000 flies can't be wrong", 1,000,000 doctors were EXACTLY AS ACCURATE AS THE MILLION FLIES in saying "Your ulcer is cause by stress".  Well,except from a fly's viewpoint, the flies were actually correct, (good for them) whereas the doctors were completely wrong the whole time.  So the doctors were not as smart as flies.

I submit that these doctors gave the rest of the nest "NEGATIVE INTELLIGENCE", and that they should be rewarded with the label of having a NEGATIVE I.Q.

If Moller says he is about a year away from offering a flying car, for 30 years straight, congratulations Paul, that was negative intelligence, and you have a negative I.Q.

If someone developing a wind turbine disregards the known wisdom of the art and says:
1)We need to target LOW WIND SPEEDS! (with optimal windspeed-targeting an old art)
2) We need to use a HIGH SOLIDITY ROTOR (with proper rotor solidity very old  and well-understood knowledge)
3) We will use CLOTH BLADES (when such had been overcome a thousand years before)
4) We will place the generator at the blade tips ( when good generator sizing and location was a well-developed in the art)
5) We will mount it a couple feet high above a roof (when more height above objects for small turbines is a well-known requirement)

The people who developed this turbine exhibited a NEGATIVE I.Q., not only disregarding known positive intelligence, but in fact repeating known examples of negative intelligence, and restating them as "positive intelligence" - to combine so many known bad ideas and promote the combination as a good idea is to have contributed NEGATIVE INTELLIGENCE to the field of wind energy. 

Further members of the nest are then enticed into repeating the NEGATIVE INTELLIGENCE, repeating the bad information that the Honeywell turbine has merit.  And so it is with bad information - it gets repeated, and given enough wrong information, any effort, or any society, might be accurately assigned a "Negative I.Q.".

When an Aerospace company shows up at an AWE conference and shows us renderings of a stealth airplane that is supposed to be a contribution toward AWE, then that company drops the ball and does nothing, probably because their design was a big joke in the first place, they have demonstrated a NEGATIVE I.Q.

When Professor Crackpot declares that "whale bumps" will increase output of windfarms by 20%, this is another example of negative intelligence.

When a company gives a date and a KW rating for a product that does not in fact emerge, once again, we can only assign them a NEGATIVE I.Q.

On balance, I'd have to say this field, overall, can only be cumulatively rated with a NEGATIVE I.Q.

Have a day!
:)
Doug Selsam
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11003 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite

Doug,

 

AWES being light enough, some "bad" wind designs come back. What is your advice about www.swayturbine.no/  (no hub, great diameter of lighter generator, less weight of blades due to the economy of the thick part) before knowing if this design is or is not Super-turbinable?

 

PierreB 




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11004 From: dougselsam Date: 1/19/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
Hi again Pierre.
Well thanks for asking my opinion of the Sway turbine.  (What Sway turbine?  Where is one?)

"The Norwegian technology company Sway Turbine has developed an eye-catching 10MW offshore wind turbine, named the ST10."

For starters, I would say the above statement is a lie. That's how they all start, right?  A big lie as an introduction?  It looks to me like the Sway turbine has NOT been developed.  It looks like a concept that they would LIKE to develop.  So, like most press-release breakthroughs, our first clue is they start out lying right away.

Eye-catching?  Yes, it is very ugly.  "Eye-assaulting" is what I would call it.

Ironless core?  Professor Crackpot strikes again: Permanent magnet alternators can use a fraction of the weight in SuperMagnets, if iron is properly employed in the flux path.  Iron lets you "stretch" the immense strength of Supermagnets far beyond what the native magnets can provide.  The reason beginners always want to use 8 times as much magnet and no iron is they don't know the tricks to reduce cogging. These tricks are not published.  Only the obvious ones are published.  The ones you need to know, well, let's just say they are seldom shared, and only on a "need-to-know" basis.  My 2 kW alternators use only 1 lb of supermagnets.  I sell the whole alternator for what other 2 kW wind turbine PMA's would pay just for their magnets.  It is radial flux using iron and we have no problem with cogging.

So:
My take on the Sway turbine?  Well, for starters, like I said, it is one more "press-release breakthrough" in the sense that it is not a real machine, but instead a collection of mis-statements implying that it is already operating, and that people agree that it is attractive. I say it has never been built, and it looks pretty ugly to me, not attractive.

Having said all that, it may introduce some concepts that turn out to be valid.  Professor Crackpot has branch offices in Scandinavian countries, but not a main office.  With the Danes having defined the original induction pedestal-fan stall-control model, often called "The Danish Concept", and with Norway having accumulated a government surplus equivalent to every Norwegian being a millionaire, these people are not complete idiots - perhaps not quite as prone to crackpotism as some others.  Nonetheless, if I had to guess, I'll go out on a limb and predict that this turbine will never be built as illustrated, and that the statements that it "has been developed", and those predicting future implementation, will turn out to be....
*** ding ding ding!!!!! *** - BZZZZZZZT - Negative Intelligence. 
I think that alternator diameter is maybe a little bit more than it needs to be, compared to similar designs in operation such as Siemens and GE, but the basic ideas of trying to increase diameter without increasing blade size (remind you of SuperTurbine(R)?), and the notion that a direct-drive alternator requires at least some extra diameter are spot-on.

Sorry, but I predict the Sway turbine will end up on the same dust-heap as global warming and whale bumps...
Thanks again for asking!
:)
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11005 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: The concept of a negative I.Q.
Human waste attitudes and plastics industry get a big -ve IQ.
The Laysan albatross feeds it's chicks on Kure Atol, with an average of 70 pieces of plastic per meal, fished from waters around the Great Western Garbage Patch.
We did that.
It's not global warming.
It's certainly not big or clever.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11006 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: FlygenKite, update

After some reviews, I do not see real possibilities as utility-scale for said crosswind AWES. So I change my presentation of http://flygenkite.com for a manual crosswind AWES for two applications: one as educational illuminating game (prototypes are schown on videos), and one other as charger for electronic devices.

 

PierreB 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11007 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: rigid vs soft clarification
Look at a video of human swimmers skin close up.
It ripples as the swimmer glides along.
Dolphins have much harder skin than humans.
This is the major reason they can go so much faster than us.
Their skin stays smooth as their minimal movements glide them along effortlessly.

Speeding things up loads and moving to air roughly equals the same kinda flow.
 
Do you consider a tightly woven sail fabric, tensed under air pressure but in a flow to be rigid or soft?.... Well it's a bit of a mix of both.

GENERALISING WARNING
Keeping the skin concave from below is your minimal necessary step with soft sails to avoid the flow drag dominance regime as long as possible. 

Additional tensioning makes soft sails more rigid .. Windsurfers use downhauled luff tubes on curved cuts mostly. LEI beam pressure and smart bridling does the same in kiteboarding. 

Shaping the cut and response of the fabric is everything for both.

So in my spinny round "daisy" / "spin basket" types... I'm hoping tension between the two ring layers (may cut this down to only an inner one) and possibly a thin fibreglass leading edge spar will pull a taught fin-like foil shape. (more c shaped blade at outer aught help too)

Rigidising this foil is all well and good but it still has to be light and behave how we want it... vacuum pressed interwoven  doped fibreglass thread layers to the rescue for the next level.... then onto the carbon fibres... etc

but first I intend to prove things soft

providing I get around to bleedin well building it instead of gibbering and dreaming about it. Anyone with good sewing skills want to price up a job for me?
You would have to factor working with a rather loose spec into the quotation.

For those other of you wanting to get involved I'm starting to pester some local universities. Related OEM's, NGO's, manufacturers etc watch out your next on the pester list... And if you're still reading you can get to work yourself improving these collaborative project proposals.

Any ways ... keep smiling ... carry on

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878

http://kitepowercoop.org
Windswept and Interesting Limited is registered in Scotland, company number SC439249
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11008 From: Andrew Beattie Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification
Rod said:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11009 From: Rod Read Date: 1/20/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Heroic response,
Thank you for that Andrew.

I'll get a new drawing made based on this and be in touch directly soon.
If nothing else you have prevented the need to film a dolphin in a wind tunnel to look for wrinkles :)
I wonder if our swimming skin ripples due to the streamlining implications of humans swimming like backwards squid at our best?

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

 

Rod said:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11010 From: Andrew Beattie Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11011 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification
Surely a dolphin doesn't change it's internal pressure either. Thus tight skin gives it a low flow speed drag advantage.
I guess having less complex joint movements, it can keep tighter skin & internal pressure up.???
Their lungs work differently under pressure
Time to experiment on one yet....
  1. Bottlenose dolphins routinely swim at speeds of about 5 to 11 kph (3-7 mph).
  2. Exercise studies indicate that bottlenose dolphins can reach burst (maximum) speeds of 29 to 35 kph (18-22 mph).
The flow going over a dolphin is normally much more laminar, less chaotic than ours.
Bet the dolphin goes all squidgey wobbly at speed.

My studies are based on direct observation of youtube and my wife's legs. (never tell her I wrote this please) TOP Swimmer!! She does 2 lengths of the Stornoway pool (25m) underwater doing dolphin kick only!! She'd drown me if I suggested she wasn't a smooth swimmer.

Talking of 25m.... A 25m football??? Holy &^%£ Andrew?

All we need, is a skydiving suit to fit a dolphin, and a flying robot camera with high enough vertical terminal velocity to be able to film said dolphin in freefall,
all so that my wife can see it's skin wobble too...

Back to kites

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11012 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Stable Down-going Kites
This topic is dedicated to the art of flying stable down-going kites. Your findings and plans are invited to be posted.  The solutions stay flying downward. A core aim is to keep the mass-to-negative ratio low; that is, low mass giving strong and stable negative lift. Bridling and shape details are invited. Video of working systems are invited. This matter is opposite to conventional kiting where one aims to have kited wings fly upward. 

The motivations and applications for stable down-going kite systems are several. 

Thanks, 
Cheers, 
   JoeF

     
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11013 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites
Support folder will be a "chandlery" for "lights" on the topic: 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11014 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification
This is an example of how any stated task degenerates into nothingness.
If I were you I'd just give up on AWE and watch  reruns of "Flipper".
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11015 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites
What is a "down going kite"?
What is a "mass-to-negative ratio"?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11016 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites
"mass to negative lift" ratio, or better, perhaps: "mass to absolute value of negative lift"
     Spend one gram of mass to obtain a tethered wing that flies stably downward in the atmosphere. Such a tethered wing has relative to up, a negative lift. When such a kite has a low number "mass-to-abosolute-value-of-lift" then one is getting more negative lift out of the given construct mass than if the number were higher. 

In some uses, having low mass while getting strong negative lift stably wins the niche game. 

Be on a bridge high over the bridged ground.  Let out line with a wing at the end of the line. When the wing "flies" in the ambient horizontal (assuming) wind so that the wing flies strongly downward, then one is exploring an instance of a "down-going kite system."

Tie a lead fishing weight to the end of a string; hang the lead sinker from the bridge. Let a horizontal wind impact the line and sinker. How will the sinker react to the wind and the tether? Will the bridling of the sinker have the sinker fly driftingly mostly or upwardly mostly or downwardly mostly? The result will depend on the bridling and shape of the sinker. Depending on the shape and the resultants, the system will have a high or low "mass-to-absolute-value-of-lift" number.  The possible shapings and bridlings of the sinker will give a spectrum of resultant flight patterns ranging from stable to very unstable; some will tend to fly upward; some will tend to struggle and fly downward.   The topic herein regards wings that stably fly downward, not upwards, as is common in "kiting" efforts.   This effort is to fly tethered toward the center of the earth, not the zenith skyward. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11017 From: dave santos Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Looping wing under a pilot kite
Note that the Looping Kite under a Pilot Kite is classically rigged just as Pocock configured his brilliant two kite system almost two hundred years ago. Pocock could have driven our kPower ground-stations by just looping or figure-eighting; the only missing bit would have been a lower-swivel, in the looping case.

The clear Pocock prior art suggests that the SuperTurbine patent is therefore invalid, if Doug's contention holds that kPower looping-kites are somehow SuperTurbines. The lower-swivel need is an indication that the Superturbine is in fact a distinct concept, since a lower-swivel would inactivate a SuperTurbine. Of course, all common kites loop, deliberately or not; no "invention" there.

The other big difference of the SuperTurbine is the practical difficulty of flying multi-kites in multi-helices. Obviously, the Pocock-based looping-kite is proven practical to fly, as kPower has yet again shown. The SuperTurbine does not seem to have an easy launch-land method in its purely tensile version, It is a prime example of a claimed-only concept, such that Doug sourly decries as "lies" by others. kPower is the leader of actually flying the most AWES concepts of any team, which Doug somehow sees as a disadvantage.

Good Luck to Doug in someday showing his pure-tensile SuperTurbine variant can work, since it would allow him a path to higher altitude that no "rotating tower" as such can effectively reach.






On Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:00 PM, "dougselsam@yahoo.com" <dougselsam@yahoo.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11018 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Explorations:

  • == Investigation of Negative Lifting Surfaces Attached to an Open-Wheel Racing Car Configuration [Things get more challenging when there is the 3-D freedom of tether, rather than fixing negative wings on a car or truck.]

  • == When on a high bridge, envision the wind window expanding from the quarter-spherical shell to a full semi-spherical shell. Instead of flying a kite to the zenith, set the kite's wing to fly stably and emphatically to the anti-zenithal pole. We seek passive formats of bridling and shape that will stably fly to the anti-zenithal region of a semi-spherical wind window. Keep the mass cost low compared to the negative lift being effected.

  • ==One motivation in kite energy regards tailing of lifting wings with negative kites as tails.  Veer fully downward stably and passively.   

  • == Also, the full circle of stable-station veering may be explored.  Different than looping wings, the wing is to stay veering in just one station of the wind-window full circle.

  • == It is common and easy to fly stunt kites downward, but not so easy to stably fix the system to the downward direction.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11019 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification

Kettle, Pot, spade, spade.
Differentiate or match with appropriately placed English idioms of your choice please Doug

I believe We've just enjoyed one of the best descriptions yet of why fabric is going to rule AWE.

You can probably expect a letter from flipper's agents for suggesting she was wrinkled. Really shameful!

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11020 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

The bottom parts of a windsock or drogue counteract the upward parts. This keeps it stable.

Windsocks are used at the back of lifter kites to keep them stable.

A controllable downwards pulling kite set under the end of a shrimps tail kite... Now that could be really useful

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11021 From: dougselsam Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification
Sure Roddy.
"fabric is going to rule AWE"
Oh yeah, that is funny.
So you think:
1) You've shown that
2) That it is true
Ha ha ha, you are funny.  I'd go back to watching TV.
"Whale bumps will increase windfarm output by 20%"
"Makani will have a 10 kW product on the  market by 2013"
"Honeywell Rooftop turbine is a good product"
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11022 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: rigid vs soft clarification
Fabric weaving already rules the rigid wing world.
Try making a carbon fibre wing without it

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11023 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Rod, 

      1. Yes on the shrimp-tail business. 

      2. However the windsock telling wind direction is fairly stable in aft or downwind direction and is not designed to "fly" stably toward the anti-zenthal pole. 

      3. In photo here: http://www.regandesigns.com/images/GlobalFlyerChute.jpg   see that the drogue chute wing is flying downwind super well, but not flying stably toward the anti-zenithal region; the pilot would not want positive or negative kiting or lateral-station kiting.       Differently, the topic thread herein is about having stable kiting where the flight is toward the anti-zenithal region. 


Best, 

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11024 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites
What I'm saying is Joe is... yes it is.
But only along that lower cord section of the chute which makes up the down part of the chute..
The chute is trying to fly to all 360 deg of the wind window all at the same time, hence it inflates.
Because it's trying quite evenly to get to all of these places it settles nicely for the middle ground
add all of the vectors together you point directly downwind
Downwind is the resultant resting place of the chute and it's collected outward and backward pointing forces.
Collected because are forces are held tensed together by the completeness of the near hemispherical chute skin


Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11025 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

Agreed. Well said.  We get the chute flying in all directions at once with a resultant of just downwind positioning.    That is clear; and it is clear that parts of the circular drogue are flying to their clock stations stably ever balanced by its opposite parts flying 180 degrees for balance.  Such is great fun for drogues wanting the neutral result.    


Now, lets delete the net zero (to the downwind effect) structure and keep only that which would give a net down-flying resultant (toward 6' o'clock on 12 hr clock); how then to have that directioning stabilized? Perhaps reach for a stable declination of 45 degrees or better. 

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11026 From: Rod Read Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites
Always ask a rev flier
http://youtu.be/IOEaW3oRL1w

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 11027 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Re: Stable Down-going Kites

We are on a bridge 300 m up off the ground. We each have various kite systems, say of the one-wing variety. We let out 100 m of tether with the wing at the far point, bridled this way or that way. We observe the resultant dynamics and record the matter. Assume no RC or active control, but just passive control.  A great variety of results will appear depending on the bridle and shape of the wing. 


Some common results: 

1. The tether angle goes above the horizon and stably kites up toward the direction of the upper sky. 

2. The drogue kite wing generally sits downwind with a slight declination because of the weight of the drogue and the length of the 100 m tether. 

3. Some kites will sit below the horizon from the bridge level, but near the bridle the tether is still inclined positively as the wing is lifting and tending to lift the body of the wing upwards. 

4. Some wings in this varied trial session will positively fly in the downward direction stably with resultant declination of substantial number, say 45 degrees or more below the horizon from the bridge level; and near the wing the tether will angled also downward away from the horizontal. This is the category sought, especially when the sail-loading is low.  Aim to avoid and discount just hanging a lead weight compact sphere that has some lift/drag dyamics.    Aim for strong inverted deflection stabilized passively and with low sail loading.