Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                           AWES10712to10761 Page 111 of 440.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10712 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/7/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10713 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/7/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10714 From: dougselsam Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10715 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: The Science of Megascale Oscillation (review and update)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10716 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10717 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10719 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Spin basket

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10720 From: Rod Read Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10721 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10722 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10723 From: Rod Read Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10724 From: Rod Read Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10725 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Giant underwater power kites planned for Anglesey

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10726 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: RAD's "rapid"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10727 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Sparrowscope Takes Aerial Photos Using A Smartphone And Kite (video)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10728 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Endless Belt AWES by Leonid Goldstein

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10729 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: WO2013173196 (A1) - AIRBORNE PHOTOVOLTAIC SOLAR DEVICE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Discussion and news option in LinkedIn started by Leo Goldstein

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10731 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Optimal Locations and Variability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10732 From: dougselsam Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Re: RAD's "rapid"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10733 From: dougselsam Date: 12/12/2013
Subject: Re: Optimal Locations and Variability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Re: Optimal Locations and Variability

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: When wind ... this might be a work for kite systems:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10736 From: Rod Read Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Re: When wind ... this might be a work for kite systems:

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10737 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Earth's wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10738 From: Rod Read Date: 12/15/2013
Subject: Re: Earth's wind

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/16/2013
Subject: Mars One is the new focus for Bas Lansdorp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10740 From: dougselsam Date: 12/17/2013
Subject: Re: Mars One is the new focus for Bas Lansdorp

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/17/2013
Subject: Ampyx Power news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10742 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 12/18/2013
Subject: Fw: Happy Holidays from R4L

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10743 From: Rod Read Date: 12/20/2013
Subject: spinbasket 2.0

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10744 From: dave santos Date: 12/21/2013
Subject: Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (review and news)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10745 From: Rod Read Date: 12/21/2013
Subject: Re: Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (review and n

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10746 From: dave santos Date: 12/24/2013
Subject: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (revie

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10747 From: Rod Read Date: 12/24/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10748 From: Rod Read Date: 12/25/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10749 From: dave santos Date: 12/25/2013
Subject: Fw: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10750 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/25/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10751 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 12/25/2013
Subject: Fw: LTA: The rise and fall?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10752 From: Uwe Ahrens Date: 12/25/2013
Subject: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10753 From: dave santos Date: 12/27/2013
Subject: Spin Wings (looping foils) as AWES Wing Class

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10754 From: dougselsam Date: 12/28/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10755 From: Rod Read Date: 12/28/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10756 From: Rod Read Date: 12/28/2013
Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10757 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/29/2013
Subject: AWE is not viable economically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10758 From: Harry Valentine Date: 12/29/2013
Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10759 From: dougselsam Date: 12/29/2013
Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10760 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 12/29/2013
Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10761 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/29/2013
Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically




Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10712 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/7/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number
Good Doug,
Thanks. In concert, then, this topic thread invites a rich disclosure of ways the various Reynolds numbers may be useful in kite energy systems' research, design, and development in all ten scales of focus.

Scaled investigations of kited objects however complex or simple will involve turbulence, changes in forms, changes in wind speeds, and surprises. Just what final play some analytic parameter will reveal itself in the works of scientists, engineers, designers, developers, and operators is part of the grand adventure. Methods of discovery differ; methods of results disclosure vary; and methods of analysis fit some people and not others.

When oscillating a kite dome, there might be a specialized linear dimension that will give rise to a specialized Reynolds number that may receive in custom a new name after the promoter or applicator or discoverer.

So, hopefully, when uses are appreciated for any of the several Reynolds numbers in kite energy, some note will accumulate herein to grow the available body of tools for the arriving workers.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10713 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/7/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

MODELING FLIGHT                    [PDF format, full document]

The Role of Dynamically Scaled Free-Flight Models in Support of NASA's Aerospace Programs

by Joseph R. Chambers


“NASA SP 2009-575.”

 Includes bibliographical references and index.

1. Airplanes--Models--United States--Testing. 

2. Wind tunnel models--United 

States--Testing. 

3. Aeronautics--Research--United States--Methodology. 

4. United States. National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I. Title.

Library shelving: 

 TL567.M6C48 2010

or

 629.101’1--dc22


WorldCat.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10714 From: dougselsam Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

I would not necessarily waste your time getting fixated on how many version of a Reynolds number you can archive.  Why?  For anyone who understands the significance of the Reynolds number in the first place, they would make the necessary adjustments to their own situation.  For everyone else, it's merely a waste of time to even discuss things they will never use and a distraction for anyone thinking they are developing airborne wind energy systems to get sidetracked into archiving how many variations on a parameter that is already well understood by those who need to use it, thinking that somehow, if they can just discuss variations of parameters or coefficients, that gets them one iota closer to developing airborne wind energy systems.

I got a random e-mail this morning from a friend.  I think he sent it as a joke.  It had a link to a "new type of wind turbine" that "gets 6 times the energy of a wind turbine":

http://www.educateinspirechange.org/2013/12/new-wind-tower-generates-600-more.html

I think this well-worn joke of a wind turbine has been seriously discussed on this list (by people who don't know any better), or mocked on this list, depending on whether the person posting is completely clueless or not.  Our first clue is them saying it gets 6 times the power when we know today's turbines already get most of the available power, some approaching the Betz coefficient. 6 times the power is like saying the machine can get 4 or 5 times the Betz coefficient, right?  Whoever is promoting this turbine may or may not even know about the Betz coefficient.  But if they did, they'd probably try and make a big deal out of discussing it if they thought it could distract anyonefrom asking ghow much power they've actually measured. 


Here's the question:  How many ways would the developers have to research, archive, and even redefine various versions of the Betz coefficient before their turbine would actually make 6 times the power of a regular wind turbine?  The answer, as far as I can see is, it would not matter HOW MANY different ways they tried to redefine the Betz coefficient, or any other coefficient!  They could assemble an encyclopedia of their own versions of Betz coefficients, for a hundred years, and their idea would still be the same dumb hunk of junk that will probably never even be connected to a generator, ever, and if it is, it will perform very badly.  Redefining Reynolds numbers can't save it.  We all know the story of how dumb a scientist would have to be to try and say a bumblebee can't fly by citing coefficients and parameters, right?  Well it's just as dumb to sit around looking at, say, a rock, and endlessly apply parameters to try and say it CAN fly.  Either something can fly or it can't, and either people have some idea what they are doing or they don't, and no coefficient, or discussion thereof, is going to save any bad idea that won't work, or somehow magically make a bad idea into a good idea.  It's like someone losing a card game discussing the formula for the ink on the cards as though if only a different ink were used, they would be winning the game!  Sure!  (unless they were cheating by using trick ink) I think the only purpose being served is the people posting this drivel are amusing themselves thinking they are actually doing anything by posting it.  That is getting to be a REAL stretch! 

:)

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10715 From: Baptiste Labat Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: The Science of Megascale Oscillation (review and update)
Hi Dave and all,

Let me try to share with you my understanding of oscillations in fluid dynamics. My knowledge comes from classes  in "Aeroelasticity and fluid-structure interaction" at college years ago, but I have not my notes anymore, so I will rely on wikipedia for reference. I also found this course on the subject, but I think no computation is needed to understand the oscillations

To my knowledge, there is two kinds of potential oscillations
  • Vortex-induced vibration (and lock in)
  • Flutter
Vortex induced Vibration
The vortex induced vibration will occur on blunt bodies due to boundary layer separation and vortex shedding.
It will appear in a given range of Reynolds number. Below the kinetic energy is too low compared to damping and there is no energy shed into the fluid. Above the boundary layer becomes turbulent due to the high kinetic energy and losses its coherency (vortex are unsteady, but not turbulent).
The frequency of the vortex shedding is observed to be related to the velocity of the fluid and the dimension of the object in the fluid. One dimentionless parameter was found to be nearly constant: this the Strouhal number which is around 0.15/0.2 for a cylinder. This enables to make a model from empirical observations, and to foreseen the frequency ot the oscillations. However, more advance unsteady analytical computation are not so easy and require numerical methods.

The vortex shedding may lead to oscillations in the fluid, but no oscillation of the body if it is rigid. However if the body is not rigid it can lead to the lock in mechanism: if the body has a natural frequency close enough to the vortex shedding frequency, the vortex shedding will synchronize with the body oscillation, which may lead to increasing oscillation depending on the phase of the resulting force.

Let's try a numerical application on a cylinder of D=100m of diameter with V=10m/s wind and with an assumption of Strouhal number St=0.2
What is the nature of the flow?
Re = V*L/ nu = 1000/1e-5 = 1e8
This is outside the typical range 250 < Re < 2 × 105 for vortex shedding, so this is I think unlikely to have huge oscillations for mega arch..
The vortex shedding frequency would have been around:
f=St*V/D= 0.02
which gives a period of 50 seconds (note: you can remember that this is 5 times the time for a particle to go from "leading" edge to "trailing" edge of the cylinder in straight line).

If you now want to find an oscillating device, you have to reduce the size. I think a good proof of that this is sensible is to look at a ship sail. The sail is not fully rigid and can be considered as not impacting the flow when loose. Its oscillations will depend on two dimensions: the mast diameter and sail rigidity which is giving a kind of minimum radius of curvature.


Flutter
The flutter can be analytically derived with quasi-steady asumption (the time from one particle to go grom leading to trailing edge is short compare to oscillation period).
It needs an elastic lifting surface, as a wing. Both translational and torsional elasticity are needed.
With this assumption, kinetic energy from the flow can be retrieved from the fluid.
Usually a plane is design so that even going down with full propulsion it will not exceed the speed with is corresponding to flutter. This is why wings of planes are rigid.

I believe flutter is unlikely for arch, as I don't see any know of any elastic behaviour. However, the way energy is retrieved from the flow can be forced like with the yoyo reel in/reel out principle.

To sum up, oscillations are possible only because there is an energy storage (like the condensator in RC circuit) which creates a time lag. It is kinetic energy in the vortex in one case, potential elastic energy in another case.
This is what you need if you want anything to oscillate, and what i don't see in the mega arch design.

++
Baptiste
PS: on the Reynolds number question, I think the chord is a good reference for a two dimensional flow, like for a long and narrow wing, where you can split the wing in strips. However, in the case of an arch, the chord might be close to the widh dimension (why not?), and due to the curvature, the flow might be more tridimensional (due to static arch shape, or oscillating arch shape), like around a sphere, torus, horseshoe, so I agree that anything can be taken for the Reynolds number, but it has to be stated, and the shape roughly defined.
PPS: only experiments can say that relationship observed at small scale will hold at large scale. I think other effects (thermal, etc) might become important with a 1km device.



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10716 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/9/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number
Doug, 
          In your note you step into many issues. 
But remaining is the growing tool of a glossary with links for learning and research purposes. 
When you do positive choose to add a description of a use of Re for RAD, then feel free to post such and thus make such available for others who might benefit from your contribution.   TIA for any such contribution. 

Those who are masters of the analysis of the physics of wind energy did not arrive at such point by avoiding learning processes.  Those who choose to understand master analyses presented by others have a need to be acquainted with the terms involved. There is a wide spectrum of types of interests at play during the growth of AWES industry. Simply ignoring terms does not seem the way to go when building a glossary in service to AWES. Rather, advancing the access is the plan.   You personally may or may not use Re in your work.  However, others do and may yet, depending on the corner being lived.  

Lift, 
   JoeF
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10717 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number
Hi Joe:
Yes I consider Reynolds number in designing wind turbines, although if I had never heard of it, I can't see how I would have done anything different.

I wouldn't be inclined to "add a description of a use of Re for RAD", first because I don't even know what you mean by "RAD", (hard to remember all your acronyms, and endlessly crafting new acronyms is one more distraction) and second, because I doubt that whatever it is actually has anything to do with any version of wind energy that is likely to emerge as a useful solution, and finally what difference would it make?  How is sitting around discussing parameters that one can barely grasp the significance of going to change one's choice of which blue tarp to use to pull your string?  I commend your endless ability to archive, and was one who encouraged you to keep it up, and I even told you when you wanted to pass the torch that nobody else in this world would be able to fill your shoes.  Still though, I think endless archiving of various coefficients etc. probably has its limits.  At some point one must have a workable concept, build them, and run them.  If you were at the beach listening to some guys bragging about what great surfers they would be, if only (?), and even though they couldn't even understand what a surfboard was, and dismissed surfboards as irrelevant to the sport, all they talked about was some coefficient of the water molecules, you'd pretty much know they were off-target or delusional, right?  Nerds perhaps?  You might even decide they were afraid of the water and you might even discern that they didn't even know how to swim, but were just trying to impress each other by mutually distracting themselves into an irrelevant discussion in lieu of having any idea why they are even at the beach, since they are obviously never going to surf.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10718 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number

Morning Doug, 

               Since day one of this group, "RAD" was in the first sentence of the front page of the group: Rapid AWE Development.   We graduated to AWES in the description. And "RAD" has been used in discussion frequently in the group-message space.   And putting "RAD" in the easy-access tool of the front page of the group's related site http://energykitesystems.net  provides one with path to "RAD" definition.  "RAD" is the fundamental front paramount reason for forming this discussion group.   Generally it seems that use of this acronym has saved some bandwidth in discussions and emails among members.   


The AWE Glossary makes it easy to find whatever we all have managed to get into the Glossary; and, as always, if you find that we are missing something important to kite systems in the Glossary, then a note about such would be welcome. Just email the editor@energykitesystems.net  and we will follow up on the matter. 


     Having a topic thread is not equivalent to sitting around over-focused on parameters.  You are free to skip parameter-based topic threads. A topic thread is a place for those who care to discuss the topic. The Re thread has your position recorded; it seems  like you will be choosing to skip the Re topic thread; however, when and if you do have something on the topic to post, then you are most welcome to share.  


Thank you for your former encouragements and various substantive postings.  And for your humor.  And devil's advocacy here and there. Your totality is welcome; the art is positively synergized by your presence. 


That some might just sit and think signals that we are a varied community. There are also others who think, design, build, fly, observe, analyze, plan, alter, improve, photograph, test, compare, collaborate, and much more. We welcome the variety of talents, modes of research and development, and varied styles of business tactics. Irv Culver, aerodynamicist, did not (to my knowing) ever build a kite hang glider to convert the wind's energy to useful results, but his Culver Twist analysis and sharing managed to robustly effect kite hang glider design, safety, builds, and safety.  One might have grown to intuitively build in twist in a wing for gliding, but others may focus on the twist and study it deeply in order to benefit designers and builders; getting optimal twist in a particular aircraft application is aided by those who would carefully study the matter.  Some of those carefully studying the matter have used Re in their work. Gradually the art advances and next generations have more options. 

       ImagesHere


Cheers, 

JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10719 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Spin basket

spin basket with drive  by Rod Read     9 Dec 2013         1: 18  

and

spin basket developing  by Rod Read    10 Dec. 2013     0:53



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10720 From: Rod Read Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket
The latest and probably the better one
Spin basket again

It still needs a background / lifter kites and generator kit to sauce up the appeal a bit first
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10721 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Re, Reynolds number
Oh I see
So the "A" in "RAD" stands for ANOTHER acronym, which is AWE, which I know: AWE stands for "Airborne Wind Energy".  I guess we on this list all know at least that one.
Well please forgive me if my nonsense filter obfuscated the "acronym of an acronym", RAD.  I'm sure I've run across it many times on this list, just never thought it important enough to memorize.  Please understand the level of drivel-ness most of this really is.  You cannot expect people to remember all the details of endless and meaningless drivel.  And specifying development of Airborne Wind Energy as "rapid" is about is meaningless as it gets, in lieu of any examples.  Is "RAD" understood by anyone but you and a select group of minions, possibly numbering 1?  Has the development of airborne wind energy, since you started using that acronym, been "rapid"?  Has use of the letter R, standing for "rapid" had any effect on the speed of development of AWE?  See, this is why I just have to say, from the viewpoint of someone who occasionally actually practices wind energy, this whole thing is just completely silly!  Who decided development of Airborne Wind Energy would be "rapid"?  Is there some other group promoting SAD?  "Slow Airborne Wind Energy Development?"  I mean, how can you sit there and specify the speed of development of something without a real plan to develop it?  Since a useful AWE system remains unknown, what good does crafting an acronym specifying the speed of development do?  And what does "rapid" even mean?  In the context of what, exactly?  Define "rapid development" in the field of airborne wind energy.  What time period is meant by "rapid"?  A year?  2 years?  I think what we are looking at is literally just more meaningless drivel.  I don't think "rapid" means anything whatsoever, except that it has not happened.  You guys cook up meaningless acronyms of acronyms as though it does a single thing to move anything forward, just like trying to micro-analyze something lie a reynolds number and then come up with 10 different variations on it as though any of it means anything whatsoever to you, or anyone else.  It does not.  I don't see it.  Are we to imagine shopping trips to Harbor Freight to buy more tarps, informed by considering variations on calculating a reynolds number?  Come on!  There's nothing about current work using kite arches that requires a specially-modified version of the reynolds number in order to be developed more "rapidly".  I don't see the acronym "RAD" as having any effect on the speed of development of AWE systems, other than the time it took to craft that acronym was time that was not spent developing AWE, similar to the time I take now to even comment on it.  The reason I don't retain things is if they are meaningless and they just get categorized as "ignore due to lack of any meaning whatsoever", which I think the acronym RAD definitely lives up to.  Yeah I remember seeing it.  And it obviously went right into my mental version of a trash can.  Why say "rapid"?  Because it feeds into the delusion of progress?  I think what you really mean is "slow" or "stopped".  Right?  If you ask me, I think airborne wind energy seemed MORE promising to the great unwashed masses BEFORE people started really trying to do it (just like all whacky wind turbines do).  5 years ago, we thought we were looking at 10 ways, from 10 teams, to do airborne wind energy.  But then some of the proposals, like microwaving power to Earth from mutually tethered freeflying kites started sounding like "Hmmm, are you sure about that?"  After years of failure, most of these "formerly promising" methods are starting to reveal their severe if not dealbreaking limitations.  Like I've said many times, if anyone could show by economic analysis that using a slow pulling force, of any magnitude, even if it were free and required no equipment, could generate electricity economically, I would not be saying this, but it seems none of the kite-pullers have ever conducted such an analysis.   And of course the reason would be that it would put the Kibosh on their porojects.  The last thing they want to hear is "actually if the pulling force were FREE, a gas turbine would produce power more cheaply than your reversible slow-pulling contraption with its intermittent operation".  And I can see you'll never see such an analysis, because nobody is interested in what factually is likely to work.  They are interested in fantasy and playing with toys.   In regular wind energy, professor Crackpot's new device is ALWAYS "just about to revolutionize wind energy" as long as it is so new that there's no data yet.  His project is always about to change the world (tomorrow), until the period when people are willing to accept the story without data to back it up expires.  At some point people want to see data.  That's when Professor Crackpot's effort starts to crack around the edges, after which it will become tattered then ripped apart in little pieces, strewn across the countryside by the very wind they were supposed to conquer!.  The fact that so many teams have spent so much time and effort in misguided attempts that ignore the fundamentals that have been learned and confirmed in 3000 years of actual practice is making success for these approaches seem less and less likely at this point.  I'd consider changing your acronym to ESAD: Excruciatingly Slow Airborne Wind Energy Development.  Or how about "NEAD" meaning "Non-Existent Airborne Wind Energy Development"?  Think about it.  How can development of any sort of wind energy be "rapid" by pulling on strings using tarps?  Most practitioners of wind energy would question that approach.  If the current methods being explored turn out to NOT form economical solutions to electricity generation, development is not only not "rapid", it's nonexistent!  It may even be NEGATIVE!  What about "NAD", meaning "Negative Airborne Wind Energy Development"?  One step forward, two steps back?  If I say I'm going to New York from Kansas, but I'm traveling West, doesn't that define NEGATIVE progress?  If I call it RTNY (rapid travel to New York), does that get me anywhere but Los Angeles?  Nope.  It would be meaningless.  It would be 100% wrong.  So if you don't have a solution yet, I'd stop calling development "rapid", and sorry for not knowing your acronym.
:)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10722 From: dougselsam Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket
Of all the approaches from all the teams, I think Roddy is the only one who has a clue.  And I mean it.  The rest literally have no clue whatsoever, and that includes the NASA effort, which I stated ahead of the fact would come to nothing.   (How did I do on that prediction, by the way?)  The only other team I note is Makani, which may have shown some promise back in the day, but maybe not so much (where's their product?)  What's stopping them now, lack of funding?   Or lack of understanding what they are doing?  Time will tell I guess.   Anyway Roddy, for a beginner to wind energy, you have some great ideas. :)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10723 From: Rod Read Date: 12/10/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket

That generous comment has given me a nice glow and smile thanks Doug.
Hopefully next year we'll be getting our warm Christmasy glow from a kite generator and brake disk.

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10724 From: Rod Read Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Re: Spin basket
Today's revision on the spin basket design...
Hoisted weathercocking spinbasket

Comments and project funding welcome

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB

07899057227
01851 870878



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10725 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Giant underwater power kites planned for Anglesey
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10726 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: RAD's "rapid"
Add your own appreciation of "rapid" for "RAD" :: Rapid AWES Development


Here are some: 
1. Those joining this AWES discussion group are encouraged to move rapidly in their positive development of kite-energy systems that do good works. That is, move with a sense of urgency for the health of earth by bringing clean kite energy forward to replace some of the energy brought to tasks from coal and oil sources. 

2. Notice that putting kite systems to perform tasks is found in ancient ways and means. But on the long time line, the contemporary attention on working kites is fully comparatively a "rapid" or fast-moving phenomena.  The current kite era of K3 is seeing a large explosion of putting kites to work. Our very text in support of K3 weighs in over former text periods in history as the planet Jupiter compared to planet Mercury.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10727 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Sparrowscope Takes Aerial Photos Using A Smartphone And Kite (video)

Sparrowscope Takes Aerial Photos Using A Smartphone And Kite (video) 
Get KAP photos of your kite farm or AWES experiment?  Get photos of your AWES ground station?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10728 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Endless Belt AWES by Leonid Goldstein
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10729 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: WO2013173196 (A1) - AIRBORNE PHOTOVOLTAIC SOLAR DEVICE
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10730 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Discussion and news option in LinkedIn started by Leo Goldstein

December 4, worldwide– Airborne Wind Energy Labs 
has started a LinkedIn group Airborne Wind Energy.

The group serves as a platform  for discussions about  the airborne wind energy industry for engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs and investors.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10731 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Optimal Locations and Variability
Optimal Locations and Variability                         PDF document

Cristina L. Archer

 University of Delaware, Newark, Delaware 
 
Luca Delle Monache 
National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colorado 

Daran L. Rife 
GL Garrad Hassan, San Diego, California  

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10732 From: dougselsam Date: 12/11/2013
Subject: Re: RAD's "rapid"
Well it's a nice idea... Rapid.  In some cases rabid...
I wish everyone would come over to my house, and we could figure out how to get a bunch of stuff in the air making power.  Rapidly. Quick, before the cooling gets worse.  It would involve a lot of elbow grease.  We got a real good reynolds number around here too...
About those ancient civilizations: what do you suppose kept them moving forward so slowly?  Especially with AWE?  Know how today we think we are at some pinnacle of technology?  I wonder if people have always thought that.  The guy with the first bow and arrow was probably dreaming of going to other planets thinking how far advanced past the animals he was.  Seems like so many people agree that theoretically there SHOULD be some way to do AWE, just nobody can quite wrap their little brains around it,  Makes you wonder: are we really intelligent, or are we more like ants that just keep bumping into walls until one of us runs into some food and then everyone else follows the path?  I'd say we have a worldwide IQ test taking place and we are flunking. he he he.  OK so AWE is physically possible, and so then... ummm... well where's the first ant so all the PhD ants can follow?
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10733 From: dougselsam Date: 12/12/2013
Subject: Re: Optimal Locations and Variability
This paper indicates optimal placement around the Gulf of Aden in Africa, around Somalia and Yemen and Oman - could this be why Oman sent a couple guys over here to invite me to set up shop over there?  I felt honored but, kind of like that guy a year or so ago, who called to consider deploying a prototype in Fukushima, it still seems that actual development of the prototypes doesn't need to take place at the site of final deployment.  Why suffer all that radiation just to test something that is likely to need a lot more work if it even looks promising at all?  Wind energy tends to promote delusional thinking due to the air being invisible.
The maps at the end of this paper show nothing over New Hampshire, where the first MegaWatt turbine was installed about 70 years ago.  Here's a link to a weather station on top of Mount Washington in new Hampshire.  It has a "dashboard" readout that shows the windspeed at any moment and for the last 24 hours.  The wind speed is usually at least 50 MPH.

http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/conditions.php

Go ahead and check it.  Pretty windy, eh?  :)
I have been up there - anyone can drive up the paved road that goes to the top of Mount Washington.  The highest mountains "back East" would be called lame-and-tame foothills here in California.  Anyway this area of New Hampshire seems to enjoy consistent winds, often well above 50 MPH and for convenience, the land gets you up to the required height, into whatever "jets" these winds might be called, making testing easier.  From a mountaintop, you gain access to higher winds without requiring a long tether.  Many mountains get us into the max 3 kM altitude range discussed in this paper, and you are still at ground level.  AWE systems tethered on mountaintops might reach winds higher than currently deemed realistic by this paper, if the tether anchor is already 2 miles high.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10734 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Re: Optimal Locations and Variability

Quote from the site: 

"23. Where does the Observatory's electricity come from?

Starting in the fall of 2007, the summit has been using "grid power", which is transmitted from the valley in a buried cable along the Cog Railway tracks. For back-up purposes, the Mount Washington State Park crew maintains two large kerosene-fueled emergency generators which can provide power for the entire summit. Kerosene remains liquid and flows at very low temperatures making it a suitable liquid fuel to use on the often frigid summit."

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10735 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: When wind ... this might be a work for kite systems:

When wind ... this might be a work for kite systems:
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10736 From: Rod Read Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Re: When wind ... this might be a work for kite systems:

Oh my word that's fast.
We used to move salmon by helicopter.... But they were afforded a smoother ride

Roderick Read
15a Aiginish
Isle of Lewis
HS2 0PB
kitepowercoop.org

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10737 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/14/2013
Subject: Earth's wind
http://earth.nullschool.net

I have yet to study the foundations for the graphic. 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10738 From: Rod Read Date: 12/15/2013
Subject: Re: Earth's wind
Attachments :
    I can certify that as the map shows... It's incredibly windy here right now.
    I got taken from my feet walking along some cliffs earlier.
    The attached image from my morning stroll shows a naturally formed kite mesh


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



      @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10739 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/16/2013
    Subject: Mars One is the new focus for Bas Lansdorp
    Bas Lansdorp, founder of Ampyx Power sold his interest in the company. 

    Then he founded Mars One. 

    Clipped quote: "Lansdorp received his Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering from Twente University in 2003. For five years Lansdorp worked at Delft University of Technology and in 2008 founded Ampyx Power in order to develop a new, viable method of generating wind energy. Lansdorp sold his majority interest in Ampyx in 2011 in order to launch Mars One, Lansdorp's dream for many years."     Source in Mars One

    =========================
    Current Ampyx Power page for "Team"


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10740 From: dougselsam Date: 12/17/2013
    Subject: Re: Mars One is the new focus for Bas Lansdorp
    Smart to get out of something over his head.  I've noticed Aerovironment's rooftop turbine was discontinued.  In fact the CEC recently inquired about about replacing some failed AV turbines with some of mine.  Honeywell's rooftop turbine also turned out to be a joke.  Also discontinued, if I am not mistaken.  Two aerospace companies join the "we can't do small wind - we can't even UNDERSTAND it" club.  And you have this guy giving up on a failed airborne wind energy endeavor, instead planning a trip to Mars.  Well believe it or not, small wind turbines look to be a more difficult challenge than space travel.  Well, at least for rocket scientists.  Maybe not for farmers...  (What's the difference between a rocket scientist and a farmer?  The farmer knows how to weld.)  Somehow we powered the Midwest with WinChargers 80 years ago, but back then people were smarter in some ways, and they actually NEEDED them to work.  Small wind turbines weren't just non-functional global-warming yard-art, made in China, back then.  They actually powered essential appliances, like electric lights and a radio.  My prediction:  Look for most of the AWE teams to start giving up, if they haven't already, and moving on to "easier" challenges, like drones, and space flight...
    :)
    Doug S.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10741 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/17/2013
    Subject: Ampyx Power news
    A lady has joined the Ampyx Power team

    ... and other news: 
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10742 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 12/18/2013
    Subject: Fw: Happy Holidays from R4L
    H a p p y   H o l i d a y s !

    JohnO
    Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)
    www.aweia.org
     
    John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
    Managing Consultant & CEO
    Hardensoft International Limited
    <Technologies Akoka-Yaba;
    Lagos. Nigeria.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Disclaimer and confidentiality note
    This e-mail, its attachments and any rights attaching hereto are, and unless the content clearly indicates otherwise, remains the property of John Adeoye Oyebanji of Hardensoft International Limited, Lagos, Nigeria. 

    It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.
    Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.
    Do not disclose or use it in any way. Views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender unless clearly stated as those of some other.


    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10743 From: Rod Read Date: 12/20/2013
    Subject: spinbasket 2.0
    A refinement on soft generator design

    Now needs a test facility


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10744 From: dave santos Date: 12/21/2013
    Subject: Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (review and news)

    Rod and Baptiste recently supposed that km-scale AWES wings (Mothras) cannot naturally be engineered to powerfully self-oscillate. Baptiste, in particular, invoked a mathematical argument.

    Previous AWES Forum discussion (~2009-10) had rested with the heuristic case of large suspension bridges, which are well known to self-oscillate (self-excite) in high wind.

    The following link is a good review of km-scale bridge-wind dynamics, with the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge galloping as the classic instance-

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1306.0080.pdf

    It remains open for the applied mathematical engineering community to create specific AWES models, in accord with the bridge existence proofs. A team of eight students at the University of Grenoble (GIPSA-Lab) intend to explore such questions (more news soon).
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10745 From: Rod Read Date: 12/21/2013
    Subject: Re: Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (review and n
    Hold on a second Senor Santos,
    I'll state anywhere that it's my firm belief...
    A system with a giant wing can easily be made to self oscillate ...
    Especially if the giant wing is coupled with complementary mechanics.
    Furthermore there are many modes of oscillation available to giant wing systems.

    e.g. if downwind of a Mothra there trails a crosswind shuttling carriage with winding cams controlling the Mothra steering. Power could be tapped by the carriage and the foot in a mechanically controlled self oscillatory mode.

    or how about...
    As the feet of a giant kite are lifted against a ground generator,
    they reach a height that triggers kite resetting to a lower AoA lower power mode.
    Feet lower till they hit gen level resetting the high AoA higer power mode. Self-Oscillatory mechanical generation.

    etc...



    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10746 From: dave santos Date: 12/24/2013
    Subject: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (revie
    Rod,

    Forced oscillation (using overlaid control actuation via a tagline) was tested in Ilwaco in 2009, but found superfluous in the face of of easy self-excitation (flags flap passively; "HyperFlag" was even an awkward label for early FlipWings). Almost immediately it became clear that the most elegant design was to let the flapping be inherent, and that the minimal control need was merely to trim-tune the oscillation by the attachments, enough to move the wing in and out of self-excitation and somewhat modulate freq. A kite-killer would be the instant way to kill the wing, if trim input is too slow in an emergency,

    daveS

    PS Confusion over your opinion regarding megascale oscillation came from this recent comment of yours- "The models of a "Mothra" arch kite is constrained by a loadpath and can't be compared to the flag or flapping wing models..."
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10747 From: Rod Read Date: 12/24/2013
    Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r
    I think the references to flags and flapping confuse the discussion .
    Birds flapping ACE, Flags Bad.
    Certainly confuses me ... as you can see in the terrible grammar in the quote you attribute me.
    My opinion will only be worth something once I start proving designs more.
    I love the idea of self exciting wing pumping.
    Inherently linking an aerodynamic cycle of lift, spill, drag (or straight LHS- RHS, or Up to Down)  with generation why not.
    Straight line pull on pull off digital pumping : I get. And the tri tether too... Both using cyclic running.
    But I need to SEE how other models can work more simply, dynamically changing configuration without feedback from the generation set.
    Can you show more working examples
    There was a very minimal length video of a wee diamond kite jumping up and down ...

    I totally concur with the intent toward inherent control coming from tweaking relative attachment tension of loadpaths as opposed to taglines or other frontal bridling .


    Flapping is normally considered destructive (flags were used by the EU in initial valuations of the effects of wind on rural communities (our flags all disintegrated within weeks))

    My confusion is...
    To me a flag is bound top and bottom front, to a thick vertical upwind pole and it's flapping back end is only constrained by internal front to back (chordal? upwind toward downwind) tension.
    being otherwise totally free in the wind the flag is not imparting other forces to the resistive set.
    (ok maybe a tiny bit up and down but certainly no CW, CCW (from above) forces.)

    If a Mothra type is to self excite, will it behave like when you make a grass blade reed,  stretched between thumbs and blown to make a screeching noise...?

    I am video generation (just) it would really help me (probably us all) if Santa brings Santos some video equipment for the encampment .

    Enjoying holiday... plane only just escaped a storm.


    Rod Read

    Windswept and Interesting Limited
    15a Aiginis
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB

    07899057227
    01851 870878



    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10748 From: Rod Read Date: 12/25/2013
    Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

    Christmas fun and toys once again bring inspiration for a power conversation configuration...  HEXABUG2 a miniature vibrating maze crawling robot...
    If the feet of a kite are vibrated by the kite... A circular array of rubberised legs will spin inside a track on a thrust bearing
    :-)
    Roderick Read
    15a Aiginish
    Isle of Lewis
    HS2 0PB
    kitepowercoop.org

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10749 From: dave santos Date: 12/25/2013
    Subject: Fw: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
    A "wonderous" phase of AWE has begun, within reach of almost anyone. Thanks to all who are making it real. Peace and Goodwill to all.

    A warm thanks to JohnO for his seasonal greeting. Here is another by UweA-


    On Monday, December 23, 2013 9:34 AM, Uwe Ahrens <Uwe.Ahrens@x-wind.de
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10750 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 12/25/2013
    Subject: Re: Fw: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

    ---In airbornewindenergy@{{emailDomain}}, <santos137@yahoo.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10751 From: Gabor Dobos Date: 12/25/2013
    Subject: Fw: LTA: The rise and fall?


    On Tuesday, December 24, 2013 11:50 AM, Gabor Dobos <dobosg1@yahoo.com
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10752 From: Uwe Ahrens Date: 12/25/2013
    Subject: Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
    Attachments :

      Mit herzlichen Grüßen / With kind regards/ Meilleures salutations

      Con saludos cordiales/ Con Cordiali saluti/ Atenciosamente

      Cu respect / Z poważaniem/ Üdvözlettel /S poštovanjem

      Saygılarımla/ Με εκτίμηση/ З повагою/ с наилучшими пожеланиями

       

      Uwe Ahrens

       

       

      Und für alle die Langeweile haben - Neues Webdesign - : www.x-wind.de

      And who has no resources against borddom - New Webdesign -  www.x-wind.de

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10753 From: dave santos Date: 12/27/2013
      Subject: Spin Wings (looping foils) as AWES Wing Class

      KiteLab has designed and flown countless variants of wings we have been calling "looping foils" for years now, but "Spin Wings" seems like the natural standard public domain descriptor.

      Some current cases:

      KPower is now focusing on Spin Wings for their stately autonomy under pilot-lifter kites (although we love our human-piloted AWES)-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZAQO__4GKE


      Kite Energy Solutions, Allister's company has briefly disclosed a looping-foil reel-out groundgen AWES-

      http://www.kitepowersolutions.com/


      DaveB's Flexor rotor is a vertical axis Spin Wing. This overview maps out the vertical-axis design-space-

      http://physicsguy.org/downloads/FlexorTechnology.pdf


      Makani Power is a Spin Wing player. The list goes goes on...
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10754 From: dougselsam Date: 12/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

      Joe F. showed us diagrams for an easy way to translate flapping to rotation.  The mechanism amounts to a crankshaft, with optional flywheel.  I see a Fred Flintstone/BC comics version, on the header to this group, and it is a photo, not a rendering.  It's great when things are actually built.  Even better if they are ever run!


      I don't see anything stopping anyone from connecting a flapping kite and completing a working model.  I would be happy to see it work out, way better than anyone could imagine.  If it is going to work well, it should be straightforward to build and run one.  The principle seems straightforward enough to at least function...

      But it is often more exciting to NOT build and run something, if one anticipates that the actual build will yield results less impressive than the hype.  The Chinese developed a flapping windmill about 1500 years ago but it didn't catch on.  So far, in the 3000-year known history of wind energy, flapping has not found a useful role.

      Happy End of 2013.  Is AWE "ahead" of where it was a year ago?  Probably not, in the sense of a year ago, lots of misguided efforts were still seen as "promising", whereas, as time goes on, it becomes more and more apparent that contraptions that "seem like they should produce some energy" are a far cry from the minimalist efficiency, simplicity, and reliability required to produce power economically. 


      Two years ago, Manaki was only "a year away" from selling a useful product.  Today their effort appears to be gathering dust, "on the back shelf" somewhere.  Where is that product?  Well, just remember the well-worn cycle of hype, empty promises, culminating in "quietly going away"... Has Makani quietly gone away... already?

      Well, what do you expect when the newcomers use terms like "crosswind" as though any other way has ever worked, like a newbie surfer talking thinking he invented "crosswave" travel, or a sailplane pilot promoting as a new concept that they neither go straight up, nor straight down, but instead travel "across" updrafts.  Crosswind?  No, really?  Say it isn't so!  :)  (Crosswind was already old news, and already the only way to do wind, 1000 years ago!   Wait, make that 2000 years ago, if you don't count the Chinese flapper that never worked out)

      Imagine some idiot talking about his "breakthrough" concept for soaring, a "new" concept of "cross-updraft travel" - you'd think he was some version of insane, combined with being so poorly-informed that you would assume he had never even HEARD of an actual sailplane.
      You'd say the person has no business even discussing the subject, right?  A complete lack of exposure to aviation, right?  Like, in any other setting, they might qualify for institutionalization, right?  Such talk would indicate a 100% lack of knowledge of the field where such has been commonly known and practiced for over a century!   Yet, as I like to say "You can't make this stuff up!"  Talk about entertainment!  (If you like clown acts...)  We in wind energy have noticed for years, in the mind of newbie wind energy wannabe inventors, there ARE NO standards!

      We're still occasionally hearing the typical line "We have no interest in small versions - for us, only large versions are worth testing" - this gives a seemingly-plausible reason to continue fantasy hopes that concepts and contraptions imagined by beginners to "revolutionize" wind energy need never be built or tested at any scale, but instead rendered and promoted ad nauseum, accompanied by nebulous "threats" that someday, a very large one will actually be built and run, at which point the world will be awed, and suddenly tarps pulling on strings will begin outperforming airfoils traveling across the wind, but only at a MegaWatt, utility-scale, never, never, NEVER at a household scale...  A small version would not be worthy of the level of genius of current AWE armchair-enthusiasts and would-be tarp-reelers.  Nope, they'd rather have BIG failures than mess around with proving their pet theories at a manageable scale.

      The current era amounts to a "shakeout" period where many versions of "the good professor", which includes most teams, begin their inevitable process of "quietly going away".  They don't issue press releases explaining "hey you know that "great" idea we promoted last year?  We can't get it to work out!  We're starting to realize it sucks, actually!  Wow, were we dumb!"  Nope, they never say that.  You never read that on Gizmag.com.  Do any of them ever say "Wind energy was too much of an intellectual challenge for us to grasp, let alone contribute to."?  No.  Never.  They would never admit that.  They don't say much of anything.  Truth is too boring for press-releases.  People aren't interested enough to even read truth.  They crave fantasy and overstated hype. 

      Do you see press-releases from Honeywell saying "Well, we've definitely proven that we can't grasp wind energy, but at least we can build thermostats and spacecraft"?  Does NASA issue a press-release saying "We spent X dollars to contribute absolutely NOTHING to AWE"?  Does Aerovironment issue a press-release saying "We no longer offer our "breakthrough" rooftop-mounted turbine because they make less power than promised, and then break."? 


      By the way, and for the record, I tried to contact Makani for the entire past year and they never answered their phone once, never answered an e-mail, and never called back.  Not that it matters... Wow, imagine how your "progress" might accelerate if you were sponsored by a big-name web company!  So where is that useful product that was supposed to hit the market a year or two ago, anyway?  Bbbbut they said..." (?)

      The Well-worn Professor Crackpot cycle of "new" ideas' road to ruin:
      ignore what's known = exclusive (stated) targeting of large scale provides the best "graceful" exit for the professor - you never have to build anything that works, at any scale. 


      "Lack of a sufficient budget" can conveniently delay building an extra-large prototype for years.  Should sufficient funding emerge, when the extra-large prototype fails, one can simply blame some extraneous factor as though it was unforeseen and easily overcome if only there were any money left, then claim poverty due to spending all their money, and give up, with an "excuse". 


      This goes all the way back to the first megawatt turbine on Grandpa's Knob in Vermont, which actually DID produce its targeted power, but as a first build, especially at such a scale, had issues that precluded long-term operation.  Another example is "the Wind Turbine Company" who promoted the long-sought "downwind 2-bladed utility-scale turbine with teetering hub", but ran out of money after a single large prototype threw a blade.


      I remember wanting to emulate Michael Laine and his "Space Elevator" concept, til I realized the talk could go on forever without any useful product, though such a useful product seemed possible, even without taking it all the way into space.


      Same thing with Moller's flying car - it has been "1 year way from commercialization" for at least 30 years so far, that I can remember.  Why not even a mini- or ultralight-version by now?  Not even an RC model?  Meanwhile, others are building electric multirotor craft similar to the Moller concept, while the original effort remains in perpetual stall mode.  Some projects seem to avoid success, even when it is within reach!

      I hope for a 2014 that sees generation of economic power from the sky!

      2015?  16?...  OK how 'bout 2030?

      :)

      Doug S.
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10755 From: Rod Read Date: 12/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r

      Thanks Doug,
      I'm going to try and leave 2013 with a bit of good cheer.
      A cheap design for high dynamic range vibrational energy capture to high torque ring rotation.
      I've skimmed through google but can't find anything similar.
      Bent rubber peg feet mounted around a ring , set inside a c section ring.
      As the inner ring is vibrated the peg feet compress and release nudging the inner ring around always in one direction.
      Please play with HexBug Nano v2 toys... ace education. and so simple.

      Could be quite good this...
      Stick the outer ring onto the side of a shoogly device and the inner ring turns.
      Use the inner ring to drive a coil spring.

      Alternately suspend either ring from a shoogly kite and drive the other ring around... have it drive a rotary transducer of some use etc..
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10756 From: Rod Read Date: 12/28/2013
      Subject: Re: Fw: [AWES] Existence-proof of megascale-wing self-oscillation (r
      No idea if this is a similar device but it's the closest reference I can find
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10757 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/29/2013
      Subject: AWE is not viable economically

      After some years of trials,discussions,analyses,projects, we have enough elements to conclude that AWE (utility-scale and also for remote locations excepted perhaps for some tiny niche) is not viable economically. Inherent problems are: reliability and high level of maintenance, land and space occupation for an unity of power. 

       

      Merry Year holidays and good year 2014.

       

      PierreB 

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10758 From: Harry Valentine Date: 12/29/2013
      Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically
      Hi Pierre


      Perhaps we have been focusing our AWE research/efforts/investment into the 'wrong' areas

      There is certainly much merit in kites pulling boats along trade routes, assisted by the trade winds . . .  there are several ships/boats on the ocean that use kite-assisted propulsion

      There is also much merit in AWE kites driving ground level generators at rural and remote locations, perhaps generating 1 to 10kW. Worldwide, there is a market for such technology.


      With regard to Makani-style utility-scale AWE proposals, they have had enough time to develop something workable and competitive.


      Harry


      To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
      From: pierre.benhaiem@orange.fr
      Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 10:01:34 +0100
      Subject: [AWES] AWE is not viable economically

       

      After some years of trials,discussions,analyses,projects, we have enough elements to conclude that AWE (utility-scale and also for remote locations excepted perhaps for some tiny niche) is not viable economically. Inherent problems are: reliability and high level of maintenance, land and space occupation for an unity of power. 
       
      Merry Year holidays and good year 2014.
       
      PierreB 

      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10759 From: dougselsam Date: 12/29/2013
      Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically
      Who is "we"?
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10760 From: Uwe Fechner Date: 12/29/2013
      Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically
      Hello,

      yes, one question is "who is we"?

      At least in the scientific discussion you should avoid to us "we" unless it is very clear that you mean
      the members of a well defined team.

      I would not agree with your conclusion.

      I would agree with a statement like "with AWE systems it is not possible to produce electricity for 4 EUR cent per
      kWh within the next two years". But that does not mean a lot. Ten years ago you could have concluded that solar
      energy (PV) will never be economically viable. But now it is.

      Some technologies need a huge investment (in the order of billions) to become economically viable. Far more research
      is needed to find out how promising airborne wind energy really is:

      We know that the initial investment costs are lower than for traditional wind turbines.

      We do not know:

      - how expensive is it to achieve a high level of reliability and automation
      - how expensive is it to implement automated launch and landing
      - which energy harvesting density per area of land can be achieved

      A lot of additional research is needed to answer these questions.

      In the end the result might be that airborne wind energy will be viable only in curtain nice markets: But even if it would
      only be competitive for offshore energy at the coast of Japan (just as example) it could still be a very important technology.

      From my point of view TwingTech has currently the most promising technology:
      http://twingtec.ch/

      Best regards:

      Uwe Fechner
      TU Delft




      Am 29.12.2013 10:01, schrieb Pierre BENHAIEM:
      Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 10761 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 12/29/2013
      Subject: Re: AWE is not viable economically

      Those who want,

       

      PierreB