Messages in AirborneWindEnergy group.                             AWES1021o1070
 Page 1 of 79.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1021 From: dave santos Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: String Variloops Made Easy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1022 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1023 From: dave santos Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1024 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Festo Cyberkite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1025 From: harry valentine Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1026 From: brooksdesign Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1027 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Acceptance of varied objectives and assets in AWECS?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1028 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Acceptance of varied objectives and assets in AWECS?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1029 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1030 From: Robert Stuart Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1031 From: Dan Parker Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1032 From: harry valentine Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1033 From: Dave Culp Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1034 From: dave santos Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1035 From: Robert Stuart Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1036 From: Conrad OHO Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1037 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: TFAWE Trans-Fusion AWE

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1038 From: dougselsam Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1039 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: EnerKite, son of the control exploratory CyberKite

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1040 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Classification

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1041 From: harry valentine Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1042 From: dave santos Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1043 From: Dave Culp Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1044 From: dean jordan Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1045 From: dave santos Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1046 From: Dave Culp Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1047 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1048 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: Shake, rattle, roll, etc. Then what? First level. Secondary levels.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1049 From: dougselsam Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1050 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1051 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/2/2010
Subject: EnergyBird

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1052 From: dave santos Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1053 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1054 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1055 From: dean jordan Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1056 From: dougselsam Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1057 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1058 From: dougselsam Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1059 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1060 From: dave santos Date: 2/3/2010
Subject: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1061 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1062 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1063 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1064 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Advanced Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1065 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Yoruba

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1066 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Advanced Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1067 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1068 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: AWEA 9.1 Standard 2009

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1069 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1070 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
Subject: Re: AWEA 9.1 Standard 2009



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1021 From: dave santos Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: String Variloops Made Easy
Sorry to Brooks for not posting this to JoeF's string variloop thread earlier, but this is a topic i have worked for several years now. The finding is that string variloops are a practical AWE power transmission option.

All you need is a fixed spool that the loop is wound onto over the top of the spool. As the loop is launched the take-up side of the loop is passively unwound off the spool. The turbine capstan or bull-wheel is allowed to roll out the slack return side of the loop as it grows. Once the loop is fully extended & unwound the turbine then pulls the loop powering the groundgen capstan or bull-wheel. To retract the process reverses but the slack side of the loop is now taken up until the loop is fully wound & landed. Interestingly the loop reverses direction each session. A detail is that the loop is reverse threaded on the capstans or bull-wheels each session. One could design to reverse the turbine to rewind.

A string loop requires a splice or connector fitting. To add to or hotswap a loop merely requires adding sections by connecting in. To work on a moving loop is not that hard, may industrial conveyor systems have sidetrack capabilities, think of train yard operations as a mega example. 

This is how KiteLab's successful KiteMotor 1 variloop is manually handled & automation seems practical. There are many possible variations in handling variloops & Brooks approach is also workable. Ideas involving many always-engaged pulleys do stink, but Dan'ls idea of using terrain suspension to hide long side-pulled sections is cool. A single pair of added split-pulleys suffices & any number of such pulleys can be completely disengaged for zero added friction during power generation.

coopip
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1022 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy

So far, the entry in the AWE Glossary:
string variloop      
Two general considerations:
1. loop not-working while let out or hauled in   and
2. loop works during variation of let-out skied portion.  
See discussions:    M945     M1021

Hundreds of terms in AWE Glossary await attention
by those particularly interested in a term. Comments,
links.  The evolving AWE Glossary is in AWE Sector.

Terms and comments may be input in various ways:

 

 

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1023 From: dave santos Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy

This is a very secondary requirement with complexity & capital cost penalty- 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1024 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Festo Cyberkite
The Festo CyberKite brochure describes that during part of its operation it generates electricity to charge its own operation batteries
and aims to become fully independent. That the system is converting wind's kinectic energy to mechanical energy
admits it to airborne wind energy conversion system; that it further converts some of that first converted energy
to electricity is further AWE; so, in two levels it is AWE; it just is not a mature version of the AWE that has as first focus a strong robust conversion
of the converted mechanical energy into electricity or pumping actions.   The robotics carefully executed  provides
some foundations for fuller AWECS aiming for more robust generation of electricity in so-focused AWECS.  AWE spans a wide variety of players.

http://www.festo.com/rep/en-us_us/assets/pdf/CyberKite_en_260309.pdf
 
"As a distinctive airborne company signet, the Festo CyberKite is
an intelligent and energy-efficient master of endurance. Thanks to
hybrid technology with integrated aerostatic lift, this kite can fly
even in the absence of wind. Its automatic control unit prescribes a
flight path for the wing and ensures a mode of flight to match the
prevailing wind conditions. The kite wings measuring 6,12 or 24
square metres, which are controlled with the latest actuation and
regulation technology from Festo and are supported by a large
number of innovations, represent an incomparable development in
the field of autonomous tethered flight systems."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1025 From: harry valentine Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite
Joe,
 
Thanks for posting link to Festo Cyberkite.
 
Harry

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Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1026 From: brooksdesign Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: String Variloops Made Easy
Sorry to DaveS for me not explaining my reasoning more clearly. I see much advantage to having the loop to be variable length as with any AWE system the goal is to find the wind energy and harvest it. Its not always in the same place all the time. I have several different designs scratched out involving connectible segments but for simplicity of automated unmanned operation(MY requirement for AWE to reach a significant level of operation) the winder arm was my best bet and easiest to CAD up.
-brooks
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1027 From: Joe Faust Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Acceptance of varied objectives and assets in AWECS?

Description

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/24857016/homepage/name/571893?type=sn
International rapid AWECS development (RAD) of airborne wind energy conversion systems (AWECS).

Advance the science and art
of tethered craft
for capturing and utilizing
fluid stream kinetic energy.

Analogues in air and water form one art party.

======================description above for this group.

In the unfolding of the above initiative, there seems to be valid room for two potentially overlapping categories of participatnts:

1. Those who strive to compare their AWECS works with the works of others.

2. Those who put all their attention on advancing their own AWECS works without comparing their work with others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I bet there can be a full spectrum of mix of foci on the space of comparing.
As yet, I know that I have yet even found the full set of serious AWE players.
And I have strong evidence that I have not found all known methods of converting wind's energy
by tethered airborne devices. Much is known by someone that is not under my unmbrella yet.

A full blossoming of most any AWE  method may fulfill a niche application that may not be fillable by some other method.
With ten scales and thousands of tasks, there seems to be room for the development of most anyone's feasible idea.
Comparative competition for a specifc task at a specific scale under specific conditions is also a fertile activity,
but not the only valid kind of activity in AWE.  Saving fuel by driving a large kite to sequentially swoop down to
give a lift up and following drop of practicing sky divers or recreational hang gliders or troops being extracted
need not be compared to a rural residential AWECS aiming to supply electricity to a one-person home.

There seem to be some unwritten objectives that might be more emphatically expressed.
Is electric power curve the objective for a certain drive? 
Is power per system kg an objective? 
Is work done per dollar invested the objective?
Is endurance of perhaps power-inefficient someone's primary objective?
Is hiddeness high on one"s concern?
Is quietly capturing low-altitude low-speed wind energy one's objective?
Is Big Wind utilityAWE one's objective in competition with Big Wind utlityThreeBladeTowereds?
Is profit in sales at sportAWE someone's objective.
Is being visually unique at low altitude for an AWECS important  to someone?
Etc.

While unfolding any AWE step, method, or means at some scale from micro to Big Free-flight,
an observant researcher probably could find twists and nuances that may affect one's own pet direction of effort.

One day there might be a choice by participants to have differently-focused open-public forums.
MicroAWE.  MiniatureAWE.  ToyAWE.  SportAWE.  UrbanResidentialAWE. RuralResidentialAWE.
NomadicAWE.   CommercialAWE.  UtilityAWE.   NationalAWE. InternationalAWE.  FreeFlightSportAWE.
FreeFlightNationalUtilityAWE.  AerostatBasedAWE.   Non-AerostatRuralAWE.   Etc. 
At full maturity, I am guessing that there will be specialized groups....all AWE, but with chosen foci.

Just a thought.  

JoeF

 

 

 
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1028 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: Acceptance of varied objectives and assets in AWECS?
Really good thoughts, Joe
---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1029 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: fusion
Greetings All,
I never thought they,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8485669.stm

would do it in my lifetime, but if they do, we will all be out of business, I don't know whether to be happy or bummed.
Lynn
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1030 From: Robert Stuart Date: 1/30/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
There's still a good chance for AWE to be cheaper per watt, especially if they try to take care of the radioactive by-products properly. Remember "too cheap to meter" fission power?
Bob
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1031 From: Dan Parker Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
Bob and group,
 
       I do remember "too cheap to meter". I would hope humanity stays within the fold of natural Nature i.e. Wind, Solar etc. then to play with with super science carving up Nature to line the pockets of the super elite, thus sustaining the corperate oligarchy that taxes the common folk to death through monthly fees. Keeping people attached to the corporate tit and centralizing power to be in the hands of a few is dangerous and will lead to a new middle age, where every thing is controlled to the nth degree and nothing changes. The wind is there for all, decentralizing power is a good thing, centralizing power is a dangerous path.
 
                                                                                                       Dan'l
 
   Ps. PSNH really put the screws to us, "I am not a clam but a molusk"
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:01:31 -0600
Subject: Re: [AWECS] fusion

 

There's still a good chance for AWE to be cheaper per watt, especially if they try to take care of the radioactive by-products properly. Remember "too cheap to meter" fission power?
Bob


Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1032 From: harry valentine Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
There is research underway involving fusing an isotope of deuterium into boron . . . has so far had a higher success rate than hydrogen fusion.
 
Harry
 
To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
From: spacecannon@san.rr.com
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:17:37 +0000
Subject: [AWECS] fusion

 
Greetings All,
I never thought they,

http://news. bbc.co.uk/ 2/hi/science/ nature/8485669. stm

would do it in my lifetime, but if they do, we will all be out of business, I don't know whether to be happy or bummed.
Lynn


Tell the whole story with photos, right from your Messenger window. Learn how!
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1033 From: Dave Culp Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
Um, there are no radioactive bi-products of fusion power. Just helium.

Dave
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1034 From: dave santos Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
As reported earlier to the list, AWE has likely three decades of window before a mature fusion tech is widely deployed. Bulk electricity from our perspective may follow a path of Coal= to avoid dependence on the power elites who will own fusion. As the rule-of-greed era abates fusion may truly be Heidegger's "Saving Power".* 

Note: There is a bit of tritium radioisotope fusion by-product; a tiny hazard compared to fission waste.

* "As the danger grows, so grows the saving power."
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1035 From: Robert Stuart Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
Just read the site - it has major concerns about damage from surplus neutrons.

Bob
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1036 From: Conrad OHO Date: 1/31/2010
Subject: Re: fusion
A very recent definitive paper on the subject that I highly recommend... Conrad OHO

=================================

The Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fiction Chapter IV: Energy from Breeder Reactors and from Fusion?

Authors: Michael Dittmar (ETH Zurich)
(Submitted on 13 Nov 2009)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1037 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: TFAWE Trans-Fusion AWE

Trans-Fusion AWE

What AWECS will retain their usefulness before, during, and after fusion blossoming? 

It is predicted that there will be a Golden AWE Age, but then what?  

Discussion is invited by AWE Sector subscribers. 
 AWE Sector file with active note-entry form is ready for this topic:
Trans-Fusion AWE     ~~ TFAWE

A start on this topic:

  • Living in the sky with tethered smart kytoon systems with the having of cool fresh air, great views,
    air-gained water, wind and solar electricity and heat.
  • Hiker's AWECS
  • .......... (your turn)
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1038 From: dougselsam Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"
Quote from Festo:
"Under appropriate wind conditions, future CyberKite systems will be operable independently of an external energy supply, using only the force of the wind."
That means they hope that if sufficiently developed, it doesn't use external power aside from the wind itself, but breaks even.
This is my point: If you want to get into selling power, the wholesale price is 4 cents/kWh, and there is a lot of competition. Starting at the high end $ with solar PV cells, that some say never make enough energy over their useful life to cover their own manufacture.
Any viable energy source must be looked at in the sense of "what if we had to use this to power our entire civilization? Does it make enough power over its lifetime to cover its own manufacture, operation, & maintenance, giving back several times that power to be useful for other things too?
In the field of wind energy it is well-known that there are unlimited configurations that can extract energy from the wind. In fact, if you put together any assembly of vanes, sails, blades, bearings, generators, etc. you probably have a 50/50 chance of making some measurable power in some way. That is really nothing but a confirmation that some energy exists to be captured, which we already knew. The question is how to extract the energy economically.

Joe F. posted a list of factors to consider in these systems. I have to say the only factor to start with really is, is there anything that looks like it could operate consistently at low cost returning more energy than you could buy with the same money.

A start would be any system that offered consistent performance to gather energy at any cost for any purpose whatsoever.
Why do I hold feet-to-fire? As though it is me and not the reality of the situation that must be satisfied?

Because that is the real world of wind energy. That is how I am treated in wind energy. I say I have a new theory opf operation that promises more economical energy capture and the response from the smallest company to the largest research lab is: "prove it".

Talk is cheap and abundant. Results matter, not talk. That is what I as a wind turbine manufacturer face. Not only must my power be grid-integrated, or at least useful for charging a battery bank, but I have to address and solve every failure of every machine, in every location, if anything goes wrong. In wind energy things always can go wrong. 24/7/365 operation in unstable conditions is hard on any machine. Experience shows to robustness of structure and simplicity of design are key to longevity.

In the Blog-o-sphere, we separate the field into "wind turbines" and "wish turbines". I submit that people here need to separate "the atmosphere" and "the blogosphere", because most of wnat is being discussed here will only ever make power in the blogosphere, not the atmosphere. Let's see what was the latest topic? Nukes? And a little aside, how to use kites to power up temporarily-disabled nuke plants? mmm hmmm....
How about working on a kite or otherwise airborne or held-aloft system that could power a single small DC outdoor lighting system as a start? Something that could keep your car battery topped-off? Charge up a golf-cart? A flashlight? Transistor radio? Anything but more blog-turbines.
I don't seee what is so hard about this. I wish I weren't mired in filling orders for our existing products, as I would like to do this Airbourne stuff full-time.
Doug S.
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1039 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: EnerKite, son of the control exploratory CyberKite

EnerKite, son of the control-exploratory CyberKite

Let us not confuse control-experiment development with
the different focus of net energy production.

The CyberKite was the the control exploration that allowed
the furthering of the EnerKite project where positive energy production was the aim.
The CyberKite has been focused on control.  

"Based on the comprehensive know-how from the project CyberKite
and other projects in the field of applied aeronautics and wind energy,
Aeroix initiated the development of a new generation of wind energy
plants by use of EnerKites."
Quote from:
EnerKite - Solutions for Kite Power Plants
 at
http://www.aeroix.de/en/projekte/enerkite/
Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1040 From: Pierre Benhaiem Date: 2/1/2010
Subject: Classification
Attachments :
    Joe and all,
     
    A classification under tree form is useful to know better hundreds projects and patents,and specific problems and advantages according to branches.
    Here is an example.Can you complete and improve it with for example a word file with successive completions?
     
    Note about OrthoKiteBunch
    OrthoKite tries:Rough (like my english language)
    measures with + - 2 m/s wind:100 Nm and 1.5 radian/seconde for lever angular speed,angle lever move = + - 100°,kite area = 1.5 m².
    Furthering details and photos of the first cheap prototype for interested persons.With the new EnergyKiteSystem with contributions system (when will be it ready and stabilized and when it will be possible to tell "go" for contributions?) technical communications will not be disclosed (?) and communications of files will be made easy (?). 
     
    Pierre B
     
    		   @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1041 From: harry valentine Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"
    Douglas raised  a good point about the economics of wind power. At the present time, too much wind power is state subsidized. The authorities who subsidize wind and solar PV power also regulate the power industry . . . and prohibit private power lines across property lines.
     
    Ultimately, cost competitive power without state subsidy would be the ideal.
     
    Harry
     
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: doug@selsam.com
    Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:04:25 +0000
    Subject: [AWECS] Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

     
     Does it make enough power over its lifetime to cover its own manufacture, operation, & maintenance, giving back several times that power to be useful for other things too?
    In the field of wind energy it is well-known that there are unlimited configurations that can extract energy from the wind. In fact, if you put together any assembly of vanes, sails, blades, bearings, generators, etc. you probably have a 50/50 chance of making some measurable power in some way. That is really nothing but a confirmation that some energy exists to be captured, which we already knew. The question is how to extract the energy economically.



    All your Hotmail contacts on your phone. Try it now.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1042 From: dave santos Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    We have known for over a year that Makani Power made poor AWE R & D decisions & had been seemingly dumped by Google.org, but there was no open confirmation. Now there is-


    This development greatly levels the playing field for the best cooperative AWE, which has not made the same mistakes. To thrive in this business, just stick to developing small cheap safe working systems first, & industrial scale success will follow.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1043 From: Dave Culp Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    It seems to me that you're making a great deal of chicken soup out of a tiny smidgen of chickenshit, Dave. Why not try just reporting the actual news?  (this "news" actually occurred 15 months or more ago, according to the story). From the referenced article:

    RE: Makani Power: "The investment tap ran dry; Griffith says, 'We had to scale back pretty dramatically to survive. We cut down to the smallest possible technical team.'"

    No mention of Google, no mention of "pulling plugs," no mention of anyone going out of business. No mention of "poor AWE R&D decisions," etc, etc. Are you aware of other AWE companies who have found major increases in funding since the start of the '08 recession? Me neither.

    Always a good idea to get the actual facts first, and then report them, factually. Everything else is op-ed, wouldn't you agree?

    Dave
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1044 From: dean jordan Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Yeah, but where's the fun in that?
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1045 From: dave santos Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Dave Culp,

    OK, call it "the (Google) tap ran dry", but no sharp observer should believe the obvious PR fiction that Google was forced by mere recession to turn off Makani Power's tap. The recession has hardly affected most of the lean AWE start-ups so dramatically.

    The "poor R & D planning" has been strongly critiqued by me & others on this list. Makani could have lead global research as heros by coordinating & cooperating with the AWE community & academia, leveraging its capital greatly. Instead Makani chose to have a terrific capital burn rate for nonessentials & did not seem to realize the shear impossibility of creating a major new branch of aviation with a narrow stealth IP strategy & non-aviation culture. What did 15 million for AWE buy? Not much science; mostly just a great lesson in how not to do pioneering large-scale AWE.

    No one said Makani has folded, the company might even learn from its mistakes & make a comeback. At least we can breath a little easier that MP won't be the evil AWE IP legal juggernaut feared, simply by outspending all the microcapital players. While Google's initial AWE flub is bad news for the public image of our field, it may be good that they changed course. We can hope Google.org will be open to a more promising AWE play as the field shows real progress & organizes on a sounder basis.


    daveS
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1046 From: Dave Culp Date: 2/1/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1047 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/2/2010
    Subject: Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"
    Harry and Group,
     
                         Absolutely, make the playing field fair, enought of the crooked tables.
     
                                                                                                      Dan'l
     
    To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: harrycv@hotmail.com
    Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:03:12 +0000
    Subject: RE: [AWECS] Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

     
    Douglas raised  a good point about the economics of wind power. At the present time, too much wind power is state subsidized. The authorities who subsidize wind and solar PV power also regulate the power industry . . . and prohibit private power lines across property lines.
     
    Ultimately, cost competitive power without state subsidy would be the ideal.
     
    Harry
     
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@ yahoogroups. com
    From: doug@selsam. com
    Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:04:25 +0000
    Subject: [AWECS] Re: Festo Cyberkite & "wish turbines"

     
     Does it make enough power over its lifetime to cover its own manufacture, operation, & maintenance, giving back several times that power to be useful for other things too?
    In the field of wind energy it is well-known that there are unlimited configurations that can extract energy from the wind. In fact, if you put together any assembly of vanes, sails, blades, bearings, generators, etc. you probably have a 50/50 chance of making some measurable power in some way. That is really nothing but a confirmation that some energy exists to be captured, which we already knew. The question is how to extract the energy economically.



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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1048 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/2/2010
    Subject: Shake, rattle, roll, etc. Then what? First level. Secondary levels.

    Shake, rattle, roll, etc. Then what?
    First level. Secondary levels. Applications

    Dave Culp suggested  by careful estimating that 20% of world-energy from wind could be
    obtained by installing smartly traction by AWECS  of the kite type into marine-vehicle movement sector. 
    He indicated that the fastest way to impact energy savings in the world by AWECS is to use
    the first-level mechanical energy for direct tugging of marine vehicles to save on fossil-fuel consumption. 
    That is, first put up an AWECS to gain mechanical energy from the wind;next: use that mechanical energy in another choice:
    tug a boat.

    Dave Santos has a deep text tending to usher an age of tethered aviation
    and perhaps living in the sky via AWECS. In the text are scores of specialized applications.

    Probably each member of this forum has a list of uses of the mined mechanical energy from AWECS
    that might even be guarded or kept under wraps for one reason or another. Let's get all such into
    a list for all.

    Trans-fusion AWECS applicaitons may have long-term potenial impact on life on earth.

    AWECS convert wind energy to mechanical energy. Include the hydro analogues in paravane systems.  
    That is first level activity.  The first level shows itself in the parts of the AWECS system being
    shaken, vibrated, stretched, pulled, turned, rotated, compressed, expanded, rattled, tensed, etc.

    What to do with that mechanical energy? 
    There are choices in the second level of activity.
    It may well be valuable to have a comprehensive list of second-tier activity choices.  And third-level, fourth level, etc.
    At each conversion there is some cost, but it all may serve well for niche needs.  
    Some examples: 

    • Let the rotation of a rotating part drive an electric generator in the sky.
    • Tow a cargo ship from point A to point B.
    • Let a turning part drive an endless loop to the ground.
    • Let the moved left-to-right action give a recreational ride to a vacating person: left move through the sky,
      then right move through the sky. Fun. Perhaps the riding person will do this instead of drive an oil-based jet ski.
    • Have  a turning part drive sound-making bangs aloft to scare birds. Perhaps this would increase crop harvests.
    • etc.
    •   

    Post your ideas  in forum an/or send to Notes@energykitesystems.net   

    or in AWE Sector: Use the data-entry form configured for direct web posting at
    http://www.energykitesystems.net/0/Applications/index.html 
    where a collection is being amassed in preparation for forming     
    an individual design-development-and-tracking file for each application.
    Applications receiving most interest will be given first attention.

    One objective is to capture potential game changer applicaitons where the game
    may be in  nomadic, individual, micro-to-free-flight, or world-surrounding sectors.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1049 From: dougselsam Date: 2/2/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Hey McConney, don't feel bad, Selsam was dumped by Google.org before we even got started, One day THEY are calling US, saying they are trying to decide whether to give us a grant or fund the company, and telling us to hang on, 'cause they "will get back to us". Next, we called them a month or two later and they "aren't interested".

    It is sad that such big companies end up ruled by similar bureaucracies to big government in the sense that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and the visions of the innovators are difficult to communicate through the clutter of all the false leads floating around.

    In this case we have something that works, works well, all the numbers work out fantastic, and it is so simple nobody can believe something so simple could actually be a breakthrough. The prevailing attitude is "if it were so good, GE would be doing it." Well GE Wind's predeccessor, Enron Wind, is actually who discovered me and Windtesting.com is sort of a spinoff of GE, and Windtesting.con was funded by The California Energy Commission to measure our output, with staggering results. We are in the loop with GE, and not only that, I was likely conceived on GE premesis in NY since both of my parents worked there. There is more going on there than meets the eye.

    And the national labs have the same basic herd mentality. The last thing most "research" people want to do is try anything new. Their jobs depend on problems NOT getting solved too quickly, or too well. And nobody wants to stand out and say anything that might make them look silly if it didn;t work out, lest thgeiur name be at the top of the list next round of layoffs. That is no attitude for encouraging true progress and breakthroughs. No new turbine configuration has been tried by the national labs in 30 years or so. And the ones that were tried were lame, engendering the false notion that no new configuration can ever supersede the pedestal-fan approach to wind turbine design.

    I have been invited to the Technonomy Conference which will be attended by the CEO of Google as well as the CEO of Amazon and even Bill Gates, and with those guys there, who knows who else will show up? I was lucky to be invited and I hope I can get some of these big decision makers of the world to see what can be done to generate large amounts of electricity at low cost, since the method is at hand.

    Selsam and USWINDLABS do not waste research dollars for no results. We have made enough turbines that outperform the status quo now that making power is pretty routine, and overspeed protection is the only real challenge, as with all real wind turbines. Our projects ALWAYS make lots of power and if something is wrong we fix it and move on.

    Enough excuses. If any deep-pockets organization purports to be truly interested in solutions that not only work, but outperform the status quo, and are patented in 95% of the wind energy market worldwide, including all EU countries, then they should stop ignoring us. We have huge working answers now, not someday.
    :)
    Doug Selsam
    USWINDLABS (brawk!)
    http://www.USWINDLABS.com

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1050 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/2/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Yeah, researchers should get paid like salemen. A Kraft Dinner salary, plus bonus for success, same as the guys in the garage . There is some hope, though. When GM contracted out the R&D for the EV-1 or Impact (dumb name for a car!) They stipulated that they expected Aerovironment to make some mistakes along the way, and wanted reports on the dead ends, too.

    Bob
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1051 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/2/2010
    Subject: EnergyBird
    http://www.energybird.org/
    http://www.energybird.org/film.swf
    http://www.energybird.org/eb-logo2.htm
    Gunther Niessen
    Enthusiam.
    Yo-yo method.
    Open for discussion.
    Link tip sent in to me.
    Seems to be contacting the governments of the world with a message
    that includes energy from flying the "EnergyBird."
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1052 From: dave santos Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Dave (Culp),

    You are quite correct that informed AWE researchers like me are naturally irked that Google's glorious kitesurfers "wouldn't share their wealth with the little starving guys".

    This previously unconfirmed starvation strategy failed luckily, & all the little guys, many who are far better qualified, yet live. What could they have done sharing the millions Makani Power blew on endless vanity expenses like research based on Maui, personal historians, sexy kite yachts, & leasing a real military base on Alameda Island on San Fancisco Bay?

    For the record KiteLab, Ilwaco, has never starved. Joby Energy's chef would despair to see what fine ingredients KiteLab's North Coast Cuisine enjoys. Don't make me print you a menu.

    daveS

    PS I would never have dumped MP like deadwood on a mere 30% stock correction, would you?

    Note to Doug: Sorry dude... AWE is the real investor candy.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1053 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    One time a friend called up and said he had a venture capitalist visiting, and wanted details on my (then) project for consideration. I was doing things so cheaply that I asked for too little to sound credible. In some circles, if you don't want a Lexus right away, you are an affront to the values of your supporters. Big salaries do make hiring easier, and if you get the right people, can be turned back into stock.

    Bob Stuart
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1054 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Hi Bob,
     
                  thanks 
     
                               Dan'l
     
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: bobstuart@sasktel.net
    Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:01:21 -0600
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

     
    One time a friend called up and said he had a venture capitalist visiting, and wanted details on my (then) project for consideration. I was doing things so cheaply that I asked for too little to sound credible. In some circles, if you don't want a Lexus right away, you are an affront to the values of your supporters. Big salaries do make hiring easier, and if you get the right people, can be turned back into stock.

    Bob Stuart


    Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1055 From: dean jordan Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    We ran into that all the time.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1056 From: dougselsam Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?
    If ships used 20% of the power consumed (which I highly doubt), we could save that 20% by making all ships sailing ships using today's kites instead of yesterday's sails.

    I guess there is also the idea that ships made specifically for generating electricity (charging batteries for transfer to shore later? Onboard fuel production?) through their propellers in the water while being dragged along by a kite, but again we may be far into Wile E. Coyote territory at that point when the alternative is spinning blades coupled directly to a generator (no ship required).
    (Cuz I have heard that ships can be expensive...)

    I've seen many photos and renderings of kites pulling ships.
    What is needed now to make it attractive to the ocean freight operators? Could we start with smaller boats in some specific application? I can see how the electric-power production aspect has turned into an excuse-driven miasma of stagnation, but what exactly is holding up the adoption of traction kites for pulling ships?
    Are the economics just not there? (fuel is still cheaper?)
    Or is the technology still lacking? Any comment from Dave C.?
    Doug S.
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1057 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?
    Regarding kites and ships: Given that kites pull best when flying in figure 8s, wouldn't it make sense to add turbines to the sail-kites to feed power to a ship's propeller?

    Bob Stuart
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1058 From: dougselsam Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Dear Dave S. Certainly thou art preaching to the choir!
    I was designing AWE systems on paper at least, before most people ever heard of or contemplated such a notion, as you know. I was building and selling kites at a young age. No need to convince me of the vastness of the resource, nor of the advisability of pursuing the energy capture thereof. Key to any system: does it work(?).

    You all might be interested to note that a tower is just one more way to get a turbine up to a high height, and wind energy people consider that they are "flying" their turbine as though it were an aircraft. The common parlance in wind energy is "So what are you flying these days?".

    In my opinion we just need a slight adjustment to have something closer to real flying turbines in the sense that the thrust loading is translated to a stabilizing, uplifting force rather than a disruptive, toppling force.

    By the same token, I think that using the thrust loading to generate power is an inadvisable false trail. Holding onto a string that can only "pull" is all a kiteflyer is used to, but that doesn't mean it is the complete answer for all airbourne applications for all time. It generates far less power and involves a pulsating power cycle. I believe you need to directly capture the cross-axis or cross-wind forces in some way (rotation is nice) and the working surfaces must hold their ground (or sky) against the wind's thrust force for a system to be economically-viable. That is what has been learned in 3000 years of ground-based wind energy. But some people will never listen to experience. I guess McConney was at least that far along. I'm sure that given a million dollars of R & D, I would have an actual working system for sale. Some people would rather talk forever about what they think they could do, rather than prove their dubious principles with any working model at any scale, which makes sense if you think about it: A dubious principle has an infinite lifetime as long as you never build it. So if your goal is to stay forever in the land of hypotheticals, it is in your interest to pursue false trails that will never work, so you too can avoid ever working!
    :)
    Doug S.

    --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos
    ~~~
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1059 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power



     
    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: deanjordan@gmail.com
    Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:35:52 -0500
    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power

     
    We ran into that all the time.

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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1060 From: dave santos Date: 2/3/2010
    Subject: Reel & Winch Notes
    AWE requires suitable reels & winches to handle lines. Existing products from other fields often require little modification to serve. Very few technologies scale so greatly, so reeling & winching at small (human) scale develops mastery applicable to big jobs.

    A kite winder is a simple spool or flat plate on which line is wound & stored. A can that fits one's hand inside is the poor man's reel that in skilled hands is quite fast & effective. A Mexican Yoyo is a ring with a channel for the line around it that fits the hand, also very cheap & versatile. When extra retraction power is needed one can roll the yoyo hand over hand, remembering to work out the twist that develops in not winding line on sideways. A glove is commonly worn on the winding hand as needed.

    A true reel is a rotary line storage drum, a fancy sort of winder. A winch is a geared or crank-levered drum that provides mechanical advantage pulling on a line. Winches are commonly integrated with a reel or can be a capstan, a (commonly ratcheted) drum like sailboats use, with the line tailing off to a separate storage reel or even into a bag. Fishing reels are the most evolved line-handling devices to study. The fanciest cost thousands of dollars & are even motorized with computer control. Two major kinds of fishing reels are the spinning reel & baitcaster. 

    The spinning reel is an open sided drum whose axis aims up the line. A revolving guide, called a bail, winds line on & can be flipped away for near zero unwinding friction.. The spinner geometry can enable a variloop by operating the bail thru the center of the spool. Use a spinner with the bail up if you want to ballistically fire a parachute packed kite aloft, an instant launch method.

    The baitcaster is simpler & strongest by weight, but the crosswise reel drum turns as line is wound on & off, with friction & intertia to handle. A drag (brake) commonly adds friction & tames inertial overrunning of the reel. This is a high wear item. Perhaps the longest lasting brake is a loaded (re)generator that makes electricity by dragging the line, the basis for many AWE schemes. 

    Level winding is the orderly even winding of line on a spool. With a spinning reel this is done by having the bail or spool pump up & down relative to the other. A level-winder on a baitcaster is a screw driven eye that neatly lays the line on the reel by slewing back & forth. This levelwinder mechanism adds drag to the overall winding process, which is a problem when unreeling a weak pull. Many fishermen remove the level winder from a baitcaster & use a thumb to slew the line back & forth.

    One of the scariest kite situations is being unable to reel in overpowered in rising wind. Kite killers are required for powerful kites. A kite can be "walked down" by hauling a pulley downwind toward the kite. This gives a leveraged line handling geometry actually relaxes the kite downwind, much easier than pulling it in upwind. As in fishing, some way of absorbing surges of tension is required in AWE to keep line weight low. Dipping booms (ie. a fishing pole) & elastomer or metal spring "snubbers" do the job. It hardly needs mention that reels must be properly anchored, see the previous post about AWE anchors.

    Note that line is wound on a reel with a diagonal wrap to avoid having line sink into itself & catch. TIght winding is best, but especially with stretchy line forces can build on a spool & crush it. One trick is to wind a backing line or ribbon on a spool as a pad for the actual line. One can even set the "gear ratio" of a reel higher by adding drum diameter this way. There are many such tricks, the learning never ends.

    High speed reeling allows "towed" long-line kite launch in zero wind & retrieval faster than the kite can fall to earth. Multi-gearing is required to allow choosing rapid or powerful reeling. A bicycle makes a dandy high-speed reel by simply winding onto the rear wheel rim (tire removed, fairlead added). By cranking the pedals line is easily brought in at around thirty miles an hour. Pulling a plastic bottle loudly down the streets of Ilwaco at such speeds made the whole village laugh or get annoyed. High speed reeling a kite back & forth against a bungee enables keeping a kite up in calm

    Paragliding, hang gliding, & performance gliding all have high speed winch/reels for towed launch that can be adapted for AWE work. Cranes, tug-boats, tow-trucks, & many other kinds of heavy equipment offer COTS scaling options. The winches found on boat trailers are cheap & powerful. If you can't find or afford the right gear don't be shy about "rolling your own" reels & winches, its really a very basic technology.

    coopip
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1061 From: Dan Parker Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes
    DaveS,
     
                 Very nice, thanks for sharing some options.
     
                                                                           Dan'l
    ps. computer enhanced tensioners for letting in and out a pulley loop system?
    To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
    From: santos137@yahoo.com
    Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:10:12 -0800
    Subject: [AWECS] Reel & Winch Notes

     
    AWE requires suitable reels & winches to handle lines. Existing products from other fields often require little modification to serve. Very few technologies scale so greatly, so reeling & winching at small (human) scale develops mastery applicable to big jobs.

    A kite winder is a simple spool or flat plate on which line is wound & stored. A can that fits one's hand inside is the poor man's reel that in skilled hands is quite fast & effective. A Mexican Yoyo is a ring with a channel for the line around it that fits the hand, also very cheap & versatile. When extra retraction power is needed one can roll the yoyo hand over hand, remembering to work out the twist that develops in not winding line on sideways. A glove is commonly worn on the winding hand as needed.

    A true reel is a rotary line storage drum, a fancy sort of winder. A winch is a geared or crank-levered drum that provides mechanical advantage pulling on a line. Winches are commonly integrated with a reel or can be a capstan, a (commonly ratcheted) drum like sailboats use, with the line tailing off to a separate storage reel or even into a bag. Fishing reels are the most evolved line-handling devices to study. The fanciest cost thousands of dollars & are even motorized with computer control. Two major kinds of fishing reels are the spinning reel & baitcaster. 

    The spinning reel is an open sided drum whose axis aims up the line. A revolving guide, called a bail, winds line on & can be flipped away for near zero unwinding friction.. The spinner geometry can enable a variloop by operating the bail thru the center of the spool. Use a spinner with the bail up if you want to ballistically fire a parachute packed kite aloft, an instant launch method.

    The baitcaster is simpler & strongest by weight, but the crosswise reel drum turns as line is wound on & off, with friction & intertia to handle. A drag (brake) commonly adds friction & tames inertial overrunning of the reel. This is a high wear item. Perhaps the longest lasting brake is a loaded (re)generator that makes electricity by dragging the line, the basis for many AWE schemes. 

    Level winding is the orderly even winding of line on a spool. With a spinning reel this is done by having the bail or spool pump up & down relative to the other. A level-winder on a baitcaster is a screw driven eye that neatly lays the line on the reel by slewing back & forth. This levelwinder mechanism adds drag to the overall winding process, which is a problem when unreeling a weak pull. Many fishermen remove the level winder from a baitcaster & use a thumb to slew the line back & forth.

    One of the scariest kite situations is being unable to reel in overpowered in rising wind. Kite killers are required for powerful kites. A kite can be "walked down" by hauling a pulley downwind toward the kite. This gives a leveraged line handling geometry actually relaxes the kite downwind, much easier than pulling it in upwind. As in fishing, some way of absorbing surges of tension is required in AWE to keep line weight low. Dipping booms (ie. a fishing pole) & elastomer or metal spring "snubbers" do the job. It hardly needs mention that reels must be properly anchored, see the previous post about AWE anchors.

    Note that line is wound on a reel with a diagonal wrap to avoid having line sink into itself & catch. TIght winding is best, but especially with stretchy line forces can build on a spool & crush it. One trick is to wind a backing line or ribbon on a spool as a pad for the actual line. One can even set the "gear ratio" of a reel higher by adding drum diameter this way. There are many such tricks, the learning never ends.

    High speed reeling allows "towed" long-line kite launch in zero wind & retrieval faster than the kite can fall to earth. Multi-gearing is required to allow choosing rapid or powerful reeling. A bicycle makes a dandy high-speed reel by simply winding onto the rear wheel rim (tire removed, fairlead added). By cranking the pedals line is easily brought in at around thirty miles an hour. Pulling a plastic bottle loudly down the streets of Ilwaco at such speeds made the whole village laugh or get annoyed. High speed reeling a kite back & forth against a bungee enables keeping a kite up in calm

    Paragliding, hang gliding, & performance gliding all have high speed winch/reels for towed launch that can be adapted for AWE work. Cranes, tug-boats, tow-trucks, & many other kinds of heavy equipment offer COTS scaling options. The winches found on boat trailers are cheap & powerful. If you can't find or afford the right gear don't be shy about "rolling your own" reels & winches, its really a very basic technology.

    coopip





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    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1062 From: Hardensoft International Limited Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Google Pulls Plug on Makani Power
    Very True.
    It is difficult sometimes to understand how the real poor survives and I suppose it shows in poor health, shabby appearance, lack of stamina, amongst others.
    There is no need to shy away from real costs.
    It is put this way around here "The truely hospitable is never afraid of receiving good hospitality" or in my native Yoruba - ' Agunyansanyan kii beru okele".
    Lift
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1063 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1064 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Advanced Reel & Winch Notes

    Thanks, Dan'l, for the kind word. Here are some further tricks & tips-



    Reel Shape- A wide reel has a fairly constant mechanical ratio as line is removed or added & allows line to dry easier. A narrow reel has a highly variable progressive mechanical ratio such that when all the line is out, & the kite is pulling strongest in wind aloft, the skinny spindle diameter has a high mechanical advantage; but as the line is retracted onto its own backing it runs faster, helping land the kite right to the reel in low surface wind.


    ElectroTethers- A reel for an electrotether needs rotary contacts to convey current past itself. Such reels typically require special insulation & grounding. Winding an electrotether into many coils on a reel will cause well known impedance & magnetic field effects. High voltage, high frequency AC, & ferrous reel construction augment such effects. Inductive & resistive heating  of electrotether on the reel may be a factor. AWE schemes requiring high current VTOL from a loaded reel could be particularly problematic.


    Multi-reels have many variations. 

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1065 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Yoruba
    say, what is yoruba or other African for "kite"

    in nahuatl ("aztec") its "papalote"
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1066 From: Robert Stuart Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Advanced Reel & Winch Notes
    At some point, we will probably notice an effect that surprised (I think) Henry Bessemer, when he hit upon the idea of taking deep ocean soundings using piano wire instead of rope to speed the process. He got his sounding, and all was going fine until his winding drum imploded. One can reproduce the effect by wrapping a long rubber band around one's finger. For high-altitude work, we will need a slack loop between the winches and the take-up reel.

    Bob Stuart
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1067 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Kites pulling ships: what is stopping this idea?

    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1068 From: Joe Faust Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: AWEA 9.1 Standard 2009

    Say an AWECS has a turbine generating  electrity and is wanting to be cleared via the American Wind Energy Association  (AWEA)
    Standards. 
    AWEA9.1 Standard  2009
         http://www.awea.org/smallwind/documents/AWEA_Small_Turbine_Standard_Adopted_Dec09.pdf

    What in that standard expression would need to be changed to respect tethered-based systems?    
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1069 From: spacecannon@san.rr.com Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: Reel & Winch Notes
    Attachments :
    Greetings All,

    FYI, On the Gov liquidation web site, in the location of clearfield, UT, are these 3 cable reeling machines, starting bid $150.00.

    Spacecannon

    ---- Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com
    		  @@attachment@@
    Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 1070 From: dave santos Date: 2/4/2010
    Subject: Re: AWEA 9.1 Standard 2009

    Excellent Joe, 

    You have  now located two key provisional United States standards to design AWE to (see below). We need merely add our industry-specifics to have a good draft standard for all.

    KiteLab Group is refining a family of small AWE systems compliant with the new standards.

    daveS

    ===JoeF's KiteNotes======

    USA  FAA     sUAS

    Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems
    Aviation Rulemaking Committee
    Comprehensive Set of Recommendations 
    for sUAS Regulatory Development 
     
    April 1, 2009
    Pages: 74
    http://www.faa. gov/about/ office_org/ headquarters_ offices/avs/ offices/air/ hq/engineering/ uapo/rulemaking/ media/sUAS_ ARC_Recs. pdf

    Same document given by a Tiny URL:
    http://tinyurl. com/recommendati onsFORsUAS


    --- On Thu, 2/4/10, Joe Faust <joefaust333@gmail.com