Main advances for Open AWE at AWEC2013

1. Opening: Guido calls for united, sharing AWE to tackle political obstacles and guide legislative framework for certification & permits approach.. Quoting greenpeace sponsorship of study into societal implications of energy systems cent/kWh AWE wins also in terms of resource use at estimated 6g/kWh with gas 280 & nuclear @270

2. Guido further encouraged sharing of results from testing. This will also make convincing legislators of our case easier

3. Plenty of interest in Kite Power Coop and kpower displays. Tech sharing and support was evident throughout demo day event.

4. Key relationships established with wow investments and researchers

5. AWE was featured and We were seen flying skybow and demonstrating Open AWE on rbb tv

6. Rod was inspired on a new multi-stage launch concept.

7. International cooperation with participation pan europe, Japan, South Africa, America

8. Skysails iterate need for partnerships and collaboration. Investors need and want a fantasy. Everyone needs to believe vision. (encouraging for social funding)

9. Skysails not afraid to list technical challenges and problems dealt with.

10. Skysails encourage spinn off products, (energy consulting in weather impact on shipping, yacht propulsion...) encouraging for skybow gen project, maybe even advisor capacities and general KP Coop + ideas flow

11. Skysails; long term game brings prizes, networks, crossovers, customers, certification standards... keep at networking and defining standards.

12. Skysails; “IP is not a roadblock”

13. Skysails; TEAM and INVESTORS need to trust and believe in direction.

14. Ampyx 2 x funds with networking benefits Skipol airport and WWF (Worldide Fund For Nature) Gives lobby Power … encouraging types of partners with open interests.

15. AMPYX VC gave a year long funding battle where Ampyx would have been troubled not meeting targets : Decided selling equity worldwide was dangerous, non existant in US, possible in the Netherlands.... they generated with a financial product 900,000 EUR crowd sourcing on NETPLANETCROWD

16. Ampyx Currently certified under light unmanned aircraft regulations. However with changes due there is only commercial and non commercial certification distinction based on risk (keep it light etc..) need to train & certify ground crew. Airworthiness can only be cert by USC in EU. Call for joint lobbying power as Drone lobby outweighs AWE voice.

17. Enerkite claim there is no scaling problem as long as you start small and build up. 10M kite = 30kW 30m=100kW 125m= 500kW... show wind @80m map claiming a sweetspot @ 300m up, due to mixing winds through daylight hours.. data shows sweetspot changing.

18. Enerkite flying minimum of 1x per week

19. Enerkite designing for massive gusts and drops 0 – 30m/s in 1 sec (kite retracted before actual event)

20. Enerkite; Being able to vary altitudes gives sweetspot hit advantages

21. Adrian Gambier control : laid out complexity chart slating major players chances in terms of complex approaches toward control, supervision, mooring rope, groundstation, comms, start & land sys, stability, scalability... claimed scaling carousel was easy however

22. Gambier: Fraunhofer look for Dependability RAMS aproach Reliability, Availability, Maintainability Safety

23. Gambier too many systems no long term, no fault tollerent, no redundancy, only theoretical analysis

24. Q session claim: yoyo uncoil recoil should be split between seprate gen / motor

25. Q session claim: power density W/(m2 m/s) low so far in kite sys and only 6 month material lifespan

26. Q session claim: skysails 6 month kite material life including shape retention & deformation issues= sell more kites

27. Q session claim:Appeal made to audience to use standard products from industry.

28. Q session claim:Stated regulation infrastructure is a barrier to tethered systems

29. Rod met with Axelle Vire of Imperial college London going to Delft, she is looking for models for analysis and is interested in KPC / Kpower mothra ones. Currently uses fluidity markup graphical language.

30. WOW currently financin 2 x AWE projects. Sold kgr & kgr has resold, has test field facilities. WOW fund if ready to increase size in two years. WOW would like to have SPA foundation … later argued for in talk of Airborne Wind Energy Association EU formation … open to academia and low budget… over 30 joined aeceu after dinner session.

31. WOW look for project management relationship as critical for investment confidence... formal not solely engineering aproach. Project planning necessary.

32. Diadalos Capital funded Ampyx and enerkite... trick is as percieved risk goes down capital needs go way up. Standard financing model kills many startups near end game.

33. Diadalos study of investors Percieved risk factors

34. tecnology reliable? Safe? Working? Cheaper? Maintenance? Running cost? (AWE Tecs say this is solved … but if only we could show it)

35. Regulatory risks, permits... (AWE Tecs say this is biggest risk... some countries more favourable here)

36. Technology choice is it a concept space winner?

37. Daidalos : friend started dogfood.com as venture capital matching service

38. Daidalos advice: make it easier for investors / simplify story but give detail answers, have non biased 3^rd party info, prototype and demo, offer advice to 3^rd parties, Talk to diadalos about 6yrs tech due dilligence.

39. Daidalos advice: Asset finance situation and small distributed capacity == big money in parts development

40. KFL available to sponsor companies with German link 73400000000 EUR invested (PA?) AAA rating different loan schemes available.

41. Simon Bolten (assistant to head of innovation @ Enercon) Presented model of profitability life-cycle for share of concept profits. (Where a dominant design is emerging, as product innovation goes down process innovation goes up)

42. Simon Bolten Appropriability , Regime and imitability all play a part in available roles, as do product modularity for outer innovations / standards interopeability

43. Simon Bolten Complementry assets; marketing, aftersales, support from generic to specialist to co-specialised.

44. Simon Bolten ; in TRL check result companies are not evaluating all of the concepts... specialising early. Interesting varied claims on TRL. Expected product launches have all slipped. 1 high trl tiny gen claimed close to 2014 release schedule (rods note was that skybow?)

45. Simon Bolten ; 65% consider their core tech is explicit and easy to architecture. Range of imitability self impressions.

46. Simon Bolten more pie slices in being ahead, ip rights, secrecy, control over employees (rods note certainly Simon wouldn't talk about Enercon)

47. Simon Bolten Collaboration and cooperative pooling of IP is most effective way forward. Obtaining funding is seen as critical by normal companies

48. Simon Bolten Estimated share of concept profit goes 29%innovators, 25% customers, 23% suppliers, 23% imitators.

49. Simon Bolten suggested consider intended introduction size, ; alliance and licensing vs going alone. Hinted toward a large business maybe being disadvantaged with core tech KU... but certainly had sales , manufacturing capacity, lobbying clout, certifying skills...

50. Damon Van Der Lind claim power factor of rigid = force slows makani wing. 600kW. power curve sort of close to prediction, wind range

51. Rolf van der Vlugt (Awesome speed kiter Dutch record holder) Sponsored by Harbour of Rotterdam. Kinematic ratio to kite course graph gives sweet spot crossovers.

52. Rolf van der Vlugt When you include mass in models reeling factor is degraded ( more real)

53. Aldo Zgraggen; best to optimise position w.r.t wind direction ( not path shape) single optimal position. Average traction force is a good measure for being aligned with the wind.

54. _ _

55. Aldo Zgraggen ; ∆T is good indicator of downwind F can find optimal elevation.

56. Only 1 loop needed to find search direction = speed up calc by factor of 2 and force tripled by adaptation.

57. Real time algorithm added to proven model : wind direction and speed at wing not needed.

58. Joseph Coleman Limerick; only 6GW grid size in Ireland so clutches separate retract motor and gen system. Drum is encoded and synchronised with 2 x other kite gen systems for smoothing.

59. Joseph Coleman developed and validated a parallel synchronous test bench

60. Moritz Diel; modelling rotation start. land still the modelling issue. Control using embeded optimisation based on reconsiling a past moving horizon estimation with the forecasted model predictive control. Non linear with 22 states 10ms to solve.

61. Moritz Diel; ACADO released as LGPL in c++ fast (Automatic Control Dynamic Optimisation)

62. Moritz Diel; outdoor 4m carousel too high to bring to Berlin.

63. Moritz Diel; Leuven open to everyone with accurate sim models to explore different designs & small prototypes. RAWESOME avalilable LGPL and adapted in python

64. Carlo Perassi and WOW hosted a workshop where suggestion everyone joins foundation with WOW for regulation management. Starting an AWEA EU encouraged by majority in room. Able to be consistent in approach yet co-joined to other bodies. Based on German WEA model, driven by windmill owners. AWEC costs EU 45 000 to host. Some profit could be made from that to support AWEA EU.

65. Rolf Luchsinger Reel out optimal speed not as high as .3x wind ~0.25 better. Higher mass kite needs to keep in smaller circle. Best = mix e.g. not sailplane not kite... TWING. Ram air = leading edge problem. Sponsors EMPA n/w Eth EPFI FESTO Zurcher kantonal bank

66. Lorenzo Fagiano; velocity angle in wind window their key & aiming for only 2 target points (1 each side) many approaches to control studied. Can do the lot with ground sensors. A learned controller can perform better than a human and doesn't get bored.

67. Omnidea; what a sausage!

68. Roland Schmel; Aeroelasticity FEA from airbag software. Python FE solver. Simple 4 part beams and tethers...16 DOF model? Simple reverse gravity models. jellyfishing . . exterior section aerodynamic modeling Pre computed CFD applied.

69. SKYSAILS 320m2 made. peak 55kW @ 30m2 need reliable control sys with gust@30% extra speed tether pull = 70% rise. KISS, have explicit dynamic understanding, and transparent deterministic design.

70. Wind makes stuff tricky (rod thinking to self use ground effect then) design super simple … yep. Yaw rate = speed.deflection. Simplistic control setup detailed.

71. Kazuo Arakawa applied mech Fukuoka Japan, loads of toy tests, spinning sausage and twisted ropes, doug S lauged at again by audience. Loads of toys and encouraged to experiment. Kite Power Coop card presented to Kazuo on end of last day.

72. Milan Vukov fast solvers for non linear optimal control mixing results of different sample rate inputs. (rotating launch) Stereo vision @12.5 Hz solver real time rate 25Hz. Rawesome interface of ACADO for python by Greg Horn www.acadotoolkit.org LGPL license

73. Richard Leloup; kite as aux propulsion. Calculation for an induced velocity to ship. LEI kite 3d scanned for modeling. Analytical with NACA4 smoothing. 3D line lifting model. Sponsors, Beyond the Sea, cma, CGM, shipping partner.

74. BSD license, python, interested in doing more tests on other designs. Numba, fast solver, match test results well.. As per abstract. Software on Openopt.org

75. David Olinger: Worcester Massachusetts USA NSF grant, EPA , Dow Chemical, Heifer internationals heifer farm as semi permanent test site. Powersled 81 controlled AoA with back lines . 3 setups for cycling dipping boom pump operation. A lot of optimisation available yet … but pumps water and cheaper than a tower solution.

76. Ariadne Schefold and Franz Stuber Resources for education. Kids doing concept design. Cooperative with other teacher training edu bases. Creative Commons licensing. Considering adding a lot more to wiki after AWEC2013. Integrated lessons.

77. Rod Read;Gibbering incoherently on stage until kicked off

78. Bachtijar Asheri, Flying plaza concepts for Port of Rotterdam and Saraceno. Artist led project … chose tetrahedral architecture. Jurgen Wassin structural deflections and loading. Then Bachtijar inviscid CFD, Standard K-ξ model Re=5x10^5. Two recirculation regions behind plates like v shaped lung. Physical model could operate in 4 – 9 m/s




Moderator Summaries

Roland Schmehl Glad that 3 groups are finding similar yoyo optimisation results, parallel research good for comparisons.




Udo Zilmann Glad WOW have made money. Companies used to predict 2 years till auto fly....but now more relaxed. we're getting very close.




Damon Vander Lind impressed with Delft analysis of impact of mass in modelling; Adaptations of Swiss kite optimisations; Irish Grid smoothing sys; Moriz high wind Rawesome software LGPL; and overall steady progress. Cooperation on regulatory framework is important.




Christina Archer. Good measurements and algorithms are important. Amazing 341m 24 yrs, 10Hz MET tower data presented... Wind is chaos. Log law and Power Law never happens. 10M tower found dynamic optimal altitude for kite sys. Low Hanging Fruit LLJ's. Maps available + quick calc showed x TW's power available there. Appeal for answers to NY state research email as funding for research is available there. Hopes EU and US AWE remain close. Stated importance of meeting regularly.




Jϋrgen Thorbeck Honour to see this from aircraft design viewpoint , hopes we are not reinventing wheels. Delighted to see work on pumping for 3^rd world. Encouraged by experience learning programme. Liked philosophy of AWE designing and community sharing. Architecture in mix. Delft advancement of dynamics. Advises to look for similarities with aviation, especially controlling distortion of wings like aircraft do. Expects unique architectures like 3^rd world pump will find a market but one major architecture will win out eventually. Dont ignore aerospace knowledge.




Guido Exotic set.. LTA, Skywindpower, power to gas, boats following wind with gen sys, gas – methanol, re-using old pipes with hydrogen, enertrack hybrid. Windtech Autodesk available, control chassis for NTS. Enemies of AWE are within, we need to make a community. We need to discuss permits and certifications. Brand Lau with bouyant, Tommy Finland rigid wing. Big AWE overview blades.

Would never want to separate EU and US AWE occasionally necessary as bodies though to address specifics. Where is AWEC2014? Delighted with Asian attendance at 2013.

Expect video of presentations after permissions in 2 – 3 weeks.

Everyone applauded organisational effort.

The (small) world of AWE is a mix between secret and cooperation.Cooperation is well to choose an utility-scale system, so to discuss about technic problems on different systems, big money not being needed. Secret is well to pursue a system until its realization,big money and big investors being needed.

PierreB

Ah I think you just didn;t want to spend the money.

Well you could have gone all the way to Europe to listen to 100 people slowly figuring out that rotation might be a fruitful avenue. But by reading a wind energy book you could have found out that was figured out 3000 years ago.  I winder what the reeling people are saying about reeling by now.  maybe all that reeling is getting boring and they want to start making some power.

In the document is: 

"Issues not in Scope

Circular 328 defines autonomous aircraft as: “an unmanned 

aircraft that does not allow pilot intervention in the management of 

the flight”. It also defines autonomous operation as “an operation 

during which a remotely-piloted aircraft is operating without pilot 

intervention in the management of the flight”. Fully autonomous 

aircraft operations are not considered in the Circular, nor are 

unmanned free balloons nor other types of aircraft which cannot 

be managed on a real-time basis during flight."

All the challenges of ducted fans ....and worse: long ducting. The structure, the drag, ....

This is associated with the topic thread regarding open and closed flows and the Venturi challenges. 

Video: 

Fagioli - Strand Jack

Just a mention from the real wind energy angle:

Such monstrosities strain logic beyond belief.

As with most of these material-intensive attempts to force the wind to comply, they attempt a rape rather than a marriage with the wind, and fail miserably at really anything.

I always laugh at these scrap-piles from the intellectual wasteland of nothingness, thinking

"I could make more power using a freakin' 2x4 carved into a rotor!"

Can you say "waste of material"?

I'm glad Dave S. is learning...  Look, he actually agrees with me for a change!

more material =

Yeah don;t worry about my opinions. 

Better to spend years chasing false trails such as kite-reeling and liquifying anal-hair.

Whatever you do, don't use rotors to spin generators.

At some point I can only laugh when I can tel anyone ten easy ways to do AWE while they flounder endlessly, and people say " Don;t worry about what Doug says".

But as time marches on the AWE people slowly digest what I've been saying all along such as "rotation" is desirable.  Amazing how dense people can be.  Even Dave S. is starting to learn - note his accurate comment which is a direct copy of the same comment I've made many times about so many dubious schemes:

"It has no chance on the ground so what chance does it have in the air?"

Yup and most everything you ever see promoted as AWE "progress" is just crap that nobody in their right mind would suggest for ground-based or tower-based use. 

It seems that the basic intellectual thrust is:

"Let's start with something that would totally suck compared to modern wind turbines and see if we can loft it"... Why?  If reeling is a good way to harness wind energy, start on a tower and prove how great it is.  If it's a good idea it will be a good idea on a tower or towers.  If it;s a bad idea on the ground or on a tower it will probably suck once airborne too.

Dave:

You have subconsciously absorbed my input and are now quoting me verbatim.

Without acknowledging your source.  That's plagiarism.

How many times have I said that exact same thing about dubious schemes?

How many times have you argued with it?

And now you're quoting it.  And pretending you came up with it yourself!

So I guess you are now onboard with throwing away the reeling schemes right?

Because all one has to do is imagine such a scheme on the ground or a tower to start seeing how cumbersome and unwieldy it would be, not to mention that it would wear out quickly while only providing intermittent power.

Or do you think an otherwise unloaded GE turbine mounted on rails, intermittently pulling cables at various speeds around a winch to run a generator is advisable?

That has been my main theme from day one:

"I've seen all these dubious schemes before and if they don't work on the ground or a tower, why would they work in the air?"  ( Not that they COULDN'T work in the air, but watch for those red flags and realize that most new wind energy ideas are unworkable, so remain skeptical or you could fall for any goofy idea.)

You're just quoting me, and your bad memory makes you think you're coming up with an original thought.

It's OK.  What would I expect trying to teach people who choose to be ignorant and dismissive of any facts in wind energy what the facts are - to try and pass along any helpful information I've learned over the years to save people years of beating their heads against the wall - like an unruly kid constantly harassing the teacher, the teacher can only sigh and say "Well at least Johnny can read now even though he hates the teacher because the teacher represents the hard work it takes to attain knowledge."

That the unruly kid remains fixated on metaphoric characters and silly phraseology intended to get a laugh and relieve boredom while illustrating a point, while simultanously denying and adopting, then repeating the main message?

You know what would be refreshing?

To hear you say

"You know I have been resistant to what Doug has been trying to say, but I'm starting to see that some of the stuff he says DOES actually make sense!"

But no, your whole thrust is to make every message somehow resistant to logic and facts, which you symbolize as resistant to "Doug".

Well I should wise up - there is such a thing as a thankless job and we in wind energy have mostly realized that trying to steer Professor Crackpot toward a reasonable approach to wind energy is a fruitless endeavor.  The professor is always on a roll and always knows better than any expert or really just anyone with a passing familiarity with the actual art of wind energy.

Dave I heard a good piece of advice the other day that seems obvious when one thinks about it:

"Never try to confront an unreasonable person with reason.  Don't attempt to engage a person who is refusing to acknowledge logic, with logic.

Nice article Joe.

OK this guy has been working for Makani since 2011. 

I appreciate the link to a nice article but I'm a bit puzzled at the constant "welcome to airborne wind energy" theme. " Welcome" today, when he joined Makani two years ago?  "welcome" when he may already be doing more with AWE than anyone on this list?  Who is welcoming whom here, and to what exactly?

How do we know he is not far ahead of most people in this forum with regard to AWE?

That he shouldn't be welcoming YOU to AWE - I mean, maybe he actually PRACTICES AWE for all we know and a bunch of people who mostly just TALK about AWE are going to "welcome" him to AWE after he's been working at it for two years?  I have to say I think most of what transpires on this list is beyond delusional.