28153Minesto in EU Tidal Energy Technospace



Oct 16, 2019       Dave Santos

Minesto is Crown Jewel of the

 Tidal Stream Industry Energizer Project (TIGER)

and raking in the R&D cash.


Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20160 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 5/20/2016
Subject: Minesto news

Edlund confirmed as Minesto chief

Martin Edlund

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20162 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 5/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

As Minesto's turbine travels at relatively high speed (20 m/s), it could be suitable as such as a conversion system for AWE systems. 

Besides it Minesto's system looks promising. The tether length is only 110-140 m for a wing span being 14 m. And maintenance looks easier.

 

PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20165 From: dave santos Date: 5/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Excellent point Pierre. Minesto's unit would make a nice COTS underwater element of a kite-sailing system. The old idea of a HAPA flying yacht capsule between sky kite and water kite would be well powered electrically.

Feel free to claim such workable ideas in CC form (like the Open-AWE_IP-Cloud), if only to better contest possible "pirate" profit monopolization, weaponization, etc..

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20170 From: benhaiemp Date: 5/24/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Thank you  DaveS.  Sometimes a method for building AWES can evolve as some important element is available.

The present forum is particulary suitable to note evolutions in technology.

Minesto's turbines could work, among other systems, for http://www.energykitesystems.net/JongChulKim/windship_AIAA.pdf .

  PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20298 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 6/15/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20304 From: dougselsam Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
What a strategy - go public before your system is even up and running.  Well, "strike while the iron is hot" as they say.  In the investment world there is a saying: "Buy on the rumor, sell on the fact", meaning a stock can be worth more in the hype phase than it turns out to be worth later, when the hype begins to wear thin and results begin to emerge.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20311 From: dave santos Date: 6/16/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Correction Minestos's system has been "up and running" in the normal process of major extended field trials, for some years now. The pace of progress is faster than Doug implies.

Whether or not investors make money is a separate question, but at least the principle is sound and SAAB engineers have a long trackrecord of successful engineering. Minesto is no fly-by-night outfit, and there is a betting chance that investors will be lucky, like "buying Microsoft early"*. Minesto could even move into AWE and dominate, on the heels of paravane success.
----------
* This is a high-stakes game for qualified pro investors, not the place for grandma's life savings.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20312 From: gordon_sp Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
I would be interested to know the projected cost of power of the Minesto system.  Verdant Power with single fixed turbines in the East River, NYC  claims 7-8 cents/kWh.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20314 From: dave santos Date: 6/17/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
The most certain cost projection from novel energy prototype to mature technology is that cost falls drastically, by orders-of-magnitude. Another certainty is that cost will be strongly dependent on the quality of the marine current resource (velocity and constancy). Major sources of cost uncertainty abound, like energy taxes or incentives, including "the cost of doing nothing" in the face of global risk. One must define the problem very clearly by explicitly including or ignoring such factors.

Virtually all cost projections of novel energy tech are almost worthless, especially when made by the often desperate ventures developing them, with no third-party validation of claims. Most economic claims by engineering starts are by their marketing staff, rather than by serious economists. Only hindsight and general heuristic assumptions are reliable. We used to get lots of AWES energy cost projections around ~.02 USD kWhr, but these folks seem to have wised up. KiteLab has long proposed early AWE pricing will be very high, like fine wine. A paradox is that such a price structure might still be cheapest in a poor market with very high energy cost (like Solomon Islands).

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20323 From: dougselsam Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
daveS said: "Correction Minestos's system has been "up and running" in the normal process of major extended field trials, for some years now. The pace of progress is faster than Doug implies."
***Doug Replies:  I am so grateful to have someone always there to instantly "correct" anything I may say...  You are talking about a scale prototype, right?  As an "AWE expert", can you provide any performance or energy generation data?  Continuous operation?  Reliability?

daveS wrote: "Whether or not investors make money is a separate question, but at least the principle is sound and SAAB engineers have a long track record of successful engineering. Minesto is no fly-by-night outfit, and there is a betting chance that investors will be lucky, like "buying Microsoft early"*.
***Doug Repies:  So it can't "fly" after the sun goes down?  Kidding.  It does seem that they have a serious effort, which may work out or not.  Not sure whether it can be characterized as "not a fly-by-night effort" before the outcome is known.  Beware of accomplishments stated ahead of the fact in the field of clean energy.  In fact one might note that in this field, virtually ALL "accomplishments" are mere futuristic wishful statements, framed as established fact.  Consider the odds.

daveS wrote: "Minesto could even move into AWE and dominate, on the heels of paravane success."
***Doug Repies:  I think Joe has stated that Minesto is AWE.

daveS wrote:* "This is a high-stakes game for qualified pro investors, not the place for grandma's life savings."
*** Doug Replies: maybe we should either invest or not, since all this chit-chat will not really do anything.

===============================
JoeF notes: 
        Yes, paravanes are AWE.    The forum preamble has water as media for energy kite systems. Jalbert is followed on this matter.  My guess is that DaveS intended to note that Minesto may enter energy kite systems where the air is the primary media.    Of course, we have many energy kite systems that employ two media:  water and air,  soil and air.   And we have rehearsed how three-media energy kite systems have a potential play: soil, water, and air ... all employed in one energy kite systems. 
Best, 
JoeF

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20324 From: dave santos Date: 6/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Doug,

Your are patiently corrected on the AWES Forum, and thank you for appreciating the knowledge and effort required. Where else would anyone reliably spot your absurdity in patenting a Darrieus turbine in slow surface wind with a long driveshaft into faster wind, with rotors that turn would faster than the Darrieus can function?

"Up and running" does apply to "scale prototypes" in engineering.  For example, the Wrights' Flyers were the up-and-running grand prototypes of the fixed-wing aviation revolution that followed. Similarly, Minesto really is progressing the underwater kite space, and SAAB, as an aerospace giant, really could move back into its aviation core expertise via AWE. Your confusion seems to be based on not understanding the common fluid-dynamics involved.

In fact, fluid-dynamic expertise on the AWES Forum offers you the design option to develop your ST underwater where supporting your massive driveshaft by buoyancy is practical (but reaching upper wind by driveshaft is not). Otherwise, expect all the big players like SAAB, Mitsubishi, GE, and so on, to eventually get the job done without USWindLabs, in water or air, counting at all,

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20543 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 8/28/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20550 From: dave santos Date: 8/29/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Minesto is expected to operate at a loss for a few more years, as is normal for a long-term tech venture with initial high R&D costs and slow revenue growth as the technology painstakingly scales up. With SAAB as its parent company, its expected Minesto will stay the course, but there is considerable potential for competition, with WPI already a strong early conceptual and experimental contender in underwater power kites.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20621 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 9/5/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Minesto AB: Minesto to Attend Taiwan-Sweden Joint Business Council Meeting | Business Wire



Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20622 From: dave santos Date: 9/5/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
By itself, Taiwan is a niche market for experimental energy technology. No doubt Minesto is playing to regional PRC and Japanese attention for possibly huge future investment, market, and manufacture. The big "if" is if Minesto has enough of a tech lead with the best energy paravane architecture.

The global ocean current resource is real, and the mighty Kuroshio Current is the biggest, even bigger than the Atlantic Gulf Stream, and runs past Taiwan all along the length of Japan, so the resource opportunity is large.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20928 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/18/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
HSQE Manager job with Minesto UK Ltd    (HSQE :: health, safety, quality, environment)

HSQE MANAGER

Recruiter
Minesto UK Ltd
Location
Anglesey
Salary
Competitive
Posted
17 Oct 2016
Closes
14 Nov 2016
Ref
JD11
Sectors
Engineering,Manufacturing & Industrial, Utilities, Oil, Gas & Energy
Contract Type
Permanent
Hours
Full Time

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20980 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

Minesto strengthens the patent portfolio


The European Patent Office has granted leading tidal energy developer Minesto a European patent for the primary patent family covering the company’s core technology. “This strengthens the IP position for our already well-protected Deep Green concept”, says Dr Martin Edlund, CEO of Minesto.

... see through link above the full article.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20981 From: dave santos Date: 10/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Fortunately underwater kites have lots of public domain prior art. Minesto's patents do not seem to contain any blocking inventive-leap, but serve to influence investors the specific down-select is defensible

The actual future standard solution for underwater energy kites may look very different; for example, by locating the generator on the surface, bottom, or shore, depending on local factors, and maybe even using giant soft-kites underwater. There are endless array possibilities as well, that Minesto has hardly thought of, but Open_AWE explores both above and below.

Even so, Minesto could still end up the market leader in "tidal power" if it follows the design progress wherever it goes. WPI remains a strong conceptual leader in the field, but without the venture risk of being first but not best.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20981 From: dave santos Date: 10/21/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
Fortunately underwater kites have lots of public domain prior art. Minesto's patents do not seem to contain any blocking inventive-leap, but serve to influence investors the specific down-select is defensible

The actual future standard solution for underwater energy kites may look very different; for example, by locating the generator on the surface, bottom, or shore, depending on local factors, and maybe even using giant soft-kites underwater. There are endless array possibilities as well, that Minesto has hardly thought of, but Open_AWE explores both above and below.

Even so, Minesto could still end up the market leader in "tidal power" if it follows the design progress wherever it goes. WPI remains a strong conceptual leader in the field, but without the venture risk of being first but not best.

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20984 From: Pierre BENHAIEM Date: 10/22/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news

The possible success of underwater crosswind kite can be due to both a far shorter tether and no permanent secondary use. Crosswind kites like Makani or Ampyx's wings or other must deal with 1 km tether going fast in all directions and being able to prevent any secondary use.  As already mentioned Minesto's generator could be implemented as conversion system for an Airborne Wind Systems. 
 PierreB

Group: AirborneWindEnergy Message: 20988 From: joe_f_90032 Date: 10/22/2016
Subject: Re: Minesto news
PierreB,
The meaning of "secondary use" ?      Thanks.   The materials/parts of the kite system (wing, tether, anchor/PTO ?  Or the volume of water space?   Airspace?   Sea surface?  Seabed?  Land?  Airspace?
Makani's land operation would not prevent all secondary uses of the land beneath operations.
===================================
  Posted by Dave Santos on Aug. 22, 2019
Off Grid Energy Independence by IDTechEx



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September 2019
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